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  1. #6721
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I actually liked how storm was used here. tchalla showed his love for her as she was being possessed by knull which was consistent to the main book and consistent with Coates. no issues for me beloved.
    But you literally went on a whole rant about how the KiB tie is was PIS Because T'Challa and Wakanda were shown as powerful on Their own (as they should be) without anyone else namely your precious Hadari Yao. Ya know the nation that was undefeated for 10k years, repelled skrulls and Thanos while simultaneously warring with and destroying Atlantis?

    Coates Wakanda ain't the real Wakanda, neither is his T'Challa, those are the outliers and weak ones at that which won't continue forward. Just be honest and say that you only care because Coates used your girl and elevated her You'll get more respect from BP fans then all this hyperbolic talk about how Coates elevated T'Challa and gave the greatest development in eons or Whatever.

    It sounds so fake, especially since we all know when you kept popping up in this thread throughout the years and coincidentally it was always when a certain white haired character showed up

  2. #6722
    BCB 4sake Baned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    But you literally went on a whole rant about how the KiB tie is was PIS Because T'Challa and Wakanda were shown as powerful on Their own (as they should be) without anyone else namely your precious Hadari Yao. Ya know the nation that was undefeated for 10k years, repelled skrulls and Thanos while simultaneously warring with and destroying Atlantis?

    Coates Wakanda ain't the real Wakanda, neither is his T'Challa, those are the outliers and weak ones at that which won't continue forward. Just be honest and say that you only care because Coates used your girl and elevated her You'll get more respect from BP fans then all this hyperbolic talk about how Coates elevated T'Challa and gave the greatest development in eons or Whatever.

    It sounds so fake, especially since we all know when you kept popping up in this thread throughout the years and coincidentally it was always when a certain white haired character showed up
    Big facts.....,

  3. #6723
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    How was tchalla able to rid all of wakanda of the dome shrouded by the symbiotic cocoon and not alert knull god, while all the other heroes are struggling?
    Miles Morales took on a Kull dragon and Ms Marvel. He saved both of them. Kull didn't go running to his school.

    The wakandans have a weapon strong enough to defeat phoenix why the heck wasn't it used in avx or more recently in the battle for the mantle?
    That is an editorial question.

    also those runs don't address the Phoenix weapon. sorry lol
    Nor do the books starring Moon Girl, Hulk, Amadeus Cho, Riri Williams, Tony Stark or more importantly FANTASTIC FOUR.

    Wouldn't Reed Richards have that weapon by now after dealing with X-Men and Jean Gray?
    Wouldn't Tony Stark have a Phoenix Buster suit?
    Moon Girl help get rid of a mutant killing cloud-I am sure she got a phoenix weapon in her lab. Next to her DC Super Hero Girls dolls.

    Also Black Panther dealing with a venomized Killmonger.
    Coates Panther went with black excellence with folks who had no business there and some poorly written like Prodigy.

    As educated as Prodigy is suppose to be-claiming it was a no win-wouldn't he have said bring in Peter Parker and or Venom since they are experts at stuff like that?
    Or better yet talk to Miles Morales who was taken over by one and DEFEATED IT by himself. In Absolute Carnage Miles Morales.

    In fact where were ANY of the Hulks in this? Mosaic? Flint of the Inhumans? Alex Wilder? Deathlok? Runaways? Living Lightning?
    Folks who would have been more effective than Rayshuan Lucas-who just STARTED.

    In fact where was the dinosaur Wakanda has? At least Deapool vs Black Panther implies there is one.

  4. #6724
    Be seeing you… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Stark already HAS a Phoenix-Buster suit. Showed up in AvX #5. Led directly to the creation of the Phoenix 5.

  5. #6725
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



    Shuri: I can't believed that worked.
    T'Challa: We have to run before he gets back.

    No reasonable person would describe that as Thor getting defeated.



    well. yeah. until the next writer erases it. Which, if I ever get in the chair, I will absolutely do.
    I guess im not reasonable like the many people who discussed the fight on YouTube and were saying similar things but we can agree to disagree.

    if the next writer erases it or yourself then its canon but until it happens rape occurs in Wakanda just like everywhere else in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    ... What are you even talking about? Are you complaining about Panther quest, or King in black, or... Both? I'm going to assume both so let's see:

    Thor wasn't job in Panther quest. He was outsmarted, T'Challa knew he couldn't beat Thor on a straight fight, so he distracted hi him and told Shuri to get his tech weapon he prepared for Thor. Then he used his tech to redirect Thors lightning strike from Shuri to T'Challas shield and fired it back at Thor. None of T'Challas strikes actually hurt Thor and Thor wasn't trying to kill T'Challa. Finally thot throws his hammer (what T'Challa was waiting for) and it sets off his trap which fires Thor off the earth taking him out of the fight. Thor wasn't jobbed. He was beating the Frak out of T'Challa when he connected.

    King In black, already explained how he rid knull from Wakanda do I'm not going to go into that. The hand of Bast, the weapon designed to face the Phoenix was still a prototype, that means it wasn't around when AvX happened and was more likely started after that event for when it came back again.

    ... I mean do you Know anything about T'Challa? He regularly fights above his weight class. This has always been a thing. Wakanda repelled the skrulls solo and repelled Thanos forces twice before it fell. Are you going to complain about that too? The most technologically advanced nation on earth shown holding its own is a bad thing? T'Challa doesn't beat gods and cosmic beings by out fighting them, he puts smarts them. Something Coates failed to have T'Challa do.

    Really sound's like you just don't like T'Challa and Wakanda to be shown as powerful without a certain someone being there to help.

    Coates Wakanda is weak as frak and that's why no one else on the MU used It that way.
    we all want to see it but it shouldn't be at the expense of other characters, lore, entities to do so. a real fight between a bloodlusted thor against tchalla trying to talk sense to him honestly should be over in seconds. this man fights universal/multiversal level threats all the time.

    I've read the stories with Mephisto (which he technically had the help of his ancestors in defeating him in his dimension), ive seen the tiger God (which we never see how he was able to defeat him in fact maybe it wasn't a fight but a test of his will and the tiger God willingly gave him his power) but there was a least context with the first one that explained how tchalla as a man could defeat a demon god. I didnt feel as though how things were depicted on kib or in the quest show with Thor made sense for me as a reader who reads lore outside of a specific bubble where my fave resides.

    I think Coates was taking the approach of showcasing more of his tactical skills in defeating enemies based upon the resources at his disposal. why go through the effort of building or making a hammer to secure a nail in place when you have a tool box with multiple pieces of equipment that can do the job just as effectively and efficiently? he took a different approach and I liked that because it felt authentic for me as a reader. and he defeated njadaka restoring bast powers that is far from being weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    But you literally went on a whole rant about how the KiB tie is was PIS Because T'Challa and Wakanda were shown as powerful on Their own (as they should be) without anyone else namely your precious Hadari Yao. Ya know the nation that was undefeated for 10k years, repelled skrulls and Thanos while simultaneously warring with and destroying Atlantis?

    Coates Wakanda ain't the real Wakanda, neither is his T'Challa, those are the outliers and weak ones at that which won't continue forward. Just be honest and say that you only care because Coates used your girl and elevated her You'll get more respect from BP fans then all this hyperbolic talk about how Coates elevated T'Challa and gave the greatest development in eons or Whatever.

    It sounds so fake, especially since we all know when you kept popping up in this thread throughout the years and coincidentally it was always when a certain white haired character showed up

    the nation was defeated well before Coates. I believe that happened during doomwar so not sure what your pont is there.

    I dont care about respect from any fandom. I speak my truth and if people like it or not isn't my problem. I can write down a list of reasons why I loved tchalla. let's not forget where things were when Coates started. the freaking world including wakanda had been destroyed where tchalla left shuri for dead. his run through all of the hurdles tchalla went through ended up a freaking empire of nation that spread across the entire universe. so yea im not seeing how this is a bad thing for him or the character or the wakandan mythos.

    ok it sounds fake. I'm not trying to prove anything to you loves here. its funny how you guys hate when a "certain white haired" female character is mentioned yet yall stay talking about her. storm didn't do literally one noteworthy thing the last issue but it was still an incredible story with a beautiful ending. why does that white haired woman have some of you so pressed??


    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Miles Morales took on a Kull dragon and Ms Marvel. He saved both of them. Kull didn't go running to his school.



    That is an editorial question.



    Nor do the books starring Moon Girl, Hulk, Amadeus Cho, Riri Williams, Tony Stark or more importantly FANTASTIC FOUR.

    Wouldn't Reed Richards have that weapon by now after dealing with X-Men and Jean Gray?
    Wouldn't Tony Stark have a Phoenix Buster suit?
    Moon Girl help get rid of a mutant killing cloud-I am sure she got a phoenix weapon in her lab. Next to her DC Super Hero Girls dolls.

    Also Black Panther dealing with a venomized Killmonger.
    Coates Panther went with black excellence with folks who had no business there and some poorly written like Prodigy.

    As educated as Prodigy is suppose to be-claiming it was a no win-wouldn't he have said bring in Peter Parker and or Venom since they are experts at stuff like that?
    Or better yet talk to Miles Morales who was taken over by one and DEFEATED IT by himself. In Absolute Carnage Miles Morales.

    In fact where were ANY of the Hulks in this? Mosaic? Flint of the Inhumans? Alex Wilder? Deathlok? Runaways? Living Lightning?
    Folks who would have been more effective than Rayshuan Lucas-who just STARTED.

    In fact where was the dinosaur Wakanda has? At least Deapool vs Black Panther implies there is one.
    I'm sure things could have been done differently in these last few stories, Coates admits that much but I personally enjoyed his run and look forward to seeing where the next writer takes the character.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 05-30-2021 at 01:35 AM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA, THE REGENT OF SOL!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  6. #6726
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I guess im not reasonable like the many people who discussed the fight on YouTube and were saying similar things but we can agree to disagree.
    no. we can't. a hundred people being wrong about something together doesn't make them right. you and they are wrong. not a matter of opinion. just wrong. it happens.

    if the next writer erases it or yourself then its canon but until it happens rape occurs in Wakanda just like everywhere else in the world.
    Anyone who thinks Wakanda is "like everywhere else in the world" doesn't understand what it is or what it's for. Which, I think, is the basis for this ongoing disagreement here.

    we all want to see it but it shouldn't be at the expense of other characters, lore, entities to do so. a real fight between a bloodlusted thor against tchalla trying to talk sense to him honestly should be over in seconds. this man fights universal/multiversal level threats all the time.
    We never depicted a "bloodlusted Thor." that never happened.


    I dont care about respect from any fandom. I speak my truth and if people like it or not isn't my problem.

    there is no such thing as a personal truth. there are facts and there are opinions. if the opinions contradict facts, they are wrong.

  7. #6727
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    For me Aarons Avengers isnt good. He writes a good Tchalla though. Hes had two good arcs the Vampire and Khonshu arcs.
    Those are the two arcs I like as well.

    I have them in my amazon wish list to buy.
    Last edited by MindofShadow; 05-30-2021 at 04:04 AM.
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  8. #6728
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Stark already HAS a Phoenix-Buster suit. Showed up in AvX #5. Led directly to the creation of the Phoenix 5.
    Putting "buster" or "protocol" or anythign cool sounding at the end of a big threat is just a way to tell the reader that it probably isn't going to work lol

    How many times has Hulk been "busted" these days lol?
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  9. #6729
    Be seeing you… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Putting "buster" or "protocol" or anythign cool sounding at the end of a big threat is just a way to tell the reader that it probably isn't going to work lol

    How many times has Hulk been "busted" these days lol?
    Personally, I just figure Stark was a Ghostbusters fan...

    The point being, tho, he gets a pass for creating his *-buster suits. Why can't T'Challa?

  10. #6730
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    we all want to see it but it shouldn't be at the expense of other characters, lore, entities to do so. a real fight between a bloodlusted thor against tchalla trying to talk sense to him honestly should be over in seconds. this man fights universal/multiversal level threats all the time.
    Oh sweet baby Bast, the irony of this statement. LOL. First it wasn't a "real" fight Thor wasn't bloodlusted and T'Challa wasn't trying to talk him down.

    Thor was telling T'Challa he needed to go back to Avengers tower and talk it out. T'Challa refused to and said he needed to go back to Wakanda and he would fight Thor if he had to. Neither one was bloodlusted, neither was trying to kill the other. Thor got outsmarted and taking off world, he didn't get defeated as T'Challa wasn't hurting him but Thor was definitely hurting T'Challa.


    I've read the stories with Mephisto (which he technically had the help of his ancestors in defeating him in his dimension), ive seen the tiger God (which we never see how he was able to defeat him in fact maybe it wasn't a fight but a test of his will and the tiger God willingly gave him his power) but there was a least context with the first one that explained how tchalla as a man could defeat a demon god. I didnt feel as though how things were depicted on kib or in the quest show with Thor made sense for me as a reader who reads lore outside of a specific bubble where my fave resides.
    Priest had T'Challa prep for Mephisto. He had his scientist disrupt his frequent so that HE himself got knock the Frak out of Mephisto and rip his heart out, to set him up to reduce his power on the physical plane and send him back while still being tied to earth. Then he outsmarted Mephisto by allowing him to try and take his soul, but being connected to previous Panthers Mephisto was being overwhelmed and begged T'Challa to stop. KiB tie in didn't show Wakanda in anyway that wasn't already on Character. Maybe all those years of Coates weak ass Wakanda and T'Challa has you confused.

    I think Coates was taking the approach of showcasing more of his tactical skills in defeating enemies based upon the resources at his disposal. why go through the effort of building or making a hammer to secure a nail in place when you have a tool box with multiple pieces of equipment that can do the job just as effectively and efficiently? he took a different approach and I liked that because it felt authentic for me as a reader. and he defeated njadaka restoring bast powers that is far from being weak.
    This makes no sense. Coates never showed T'Challa as a tactician, he showed him as a delegator. Literally delegating everything, ever the defeat of villains in HIS franchise to everyone else. Lol reread that great "defeat" of N'Jadaka. First Storm and Monica thermal shock him, then gentle and ashira attack him, then bast shows up and N'Jadaka for some reason tries to rip off the symbiote in a fit of rage, then Shuri hit him in the head with the magical wrecking ball (at this point N'Jadaka looks like a wounded dying animal) and T'Challa stabs him... So powerful Indeed..



    the nation was defeated well before Coates. I believe that happened during doomwar so not sure what your pont is there.
    No Wakanda was defeated in time runs out, when Thanos, his fill Army and all his generals attacked it for the third time after being repelled the first two times by Wakanda while Wakanda simultaneously warred with and destroyed Atlantis

    I dont care about respect from any fandom. I speak my truth and if people like it or not isn't my problem. I can write down a list of reasons why I loved tchalla. let's not forget where things were when Coates started. the freaking world including wakanda had been destroyed where tchalla left shuri for dead. his run through all of the hurdles tchalla went through ended up a freaking empire of nation that spread across the entire universe. so yea im not seeing how this is a bad thing for him or the character or the wakandan mythos.
    Speaking opinion. Coates didn't elevated T'Challa or give him or Wakanda developed arc. He spent 5 years telling us why Wakanda was shit, how T'Challa is shit and then just circled back to the beginning. T'Challa started out as a reluctant ruler from S1 and ended as a reluctant ruler. Wakanda started out as a shit place under his pen and ended that way, but people are smiling because it's the end of the series. He did a FRAK ton of bad for the mythos

    ok it sounds fake. I'm not trying to prove anything to you loves here. its funny how you guys hate when a "certain white haired" female character is mentioned yet yall stay talking about her. storm didn't do literally one noteworthy thing the last issue but it was still an incredible story with a beautiful ending. why does that white haired woman have some of you so pressed??
    She gets mentioned Because she keeps showing up. Instead of x office doing something with her they keep trying her history and development to Wakanda. Coates didn't even like the marriage and could of had T'Challa have a New LI yet threw Storm onto the Mythos and elevated her at the expense of T'Challa and Wakanda. In the final issue she was part of the group that delivered the final blows to N'Jadaka. No one is pressed. We are just calling out when you happen to pop into this thread and everytime without fail, it's when Storm shows up. Then you dip out. Which is fine whatever you like your girl getting some shine. That's fine good on you. But don't come in and pretend that Coates is doing Basts work for T'Challa and his world When it's painfully clear he ain't




    I'm sure things could have been done differently in these last few stories, Coates admits that much but I personally enjoyed his run and look forward to seeing where the next writer takes the character.
    This is literally what we have been saying from the jump. This is fine more power to you, but don't come in here and try to tell long term fans who have vastly more knowledge of the lore and history of the character than you, that what Coates is doing is some Amazing wonderful stuff and we just mad cause *insert whatever excuse* and that he has done more Character development for T'Challa than any other. It screams of ignorance

    I pop into the Avengers thread and have said that I like what he is doing with T'Challa there and commented the specific things I liked. I did not tell the other fans to embrace it and enjoy what he is doing for their fav Characters and he is doing great things and they should be happy. Because I don't know the history. So who am I to tell them to be happy when they clearly know how those Characters should be written? Same here
    Last edited by Ezyo1000; 05-30-2021 at 06:46 AM.

  11. #6731
    Astonishing Member Dboi654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Personally, I just figure Stark was a Ghostbusters fan...

    The point being, tho, he gets a pass for creating his *-buster suits. Why can't T'Challa?
    Reminds me of the comment made by Dwayne McDuffie with regards to how black characters are criticized for defeating an omnipotent character more powerful than the hero but a white characters is praised for such feat. Hell, he even mentioned Black Panther's name in the video below.

    Rest in peace Mr. McDuffie

    Last edited by Dboi654; 05-30-2021 at 06:53 AM.

  12. #6732
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    "shove agenda down their throat"

    damn, these comicgate types been doing this for decades lol
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  13. #6733
    Be seeing you… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Let's have some fun.

    Imagine, if you would, a new Iron Man run.

    In the first issue, Stark is fighting off a hostile takeover by Sunset Bain, while fending off negative press because of sexual harassment allegations from a group of female employees (spearheaded by Bethany Cabe) about the director of a subsidiary in Norfolk, VA. The hostile takeover fails, thanks in no small part to assistance from Cabe, who becomes the new CEO, with Stark reduced to a figurehead role.

    In the next arc, time-travelers from the 2099 future start attacking Stark facilities under the command of Ezekial Stane, who has somehow become merged with the Mandarin's rings. Stark is temporarily brainwashed but breaks free. In the end, he calls up every armored hero he can find to assist, and they defeat Stane's forces while Tony confronts his memories of his father. At the end of the story, Tony is CEO of the new Stark-Fujiwara.

    During this run, Stark never wins a fight, and continually talks about how he NEVER liked running a company and would prefer to just hang out in his lab, and repair his relationship with Pepper Potts.

    Would YOU call that a revolutionary Iron Man run?


    ETA: And don't forget that Stark Industries MUST have rampant corruption, mistreated employees, and widespread harassment, because that's what real-world companies are like.
    Last edited by DigiCom; 05-30-2021 at 08:07 AM. Reason: More detail

  14. #6734
    Fantastic Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    The problem isn't that T'Challa shouldn't have flaws. It's that Coates CREATED flaws, in order to tell the story he wanted to tell. He warped the character to fit the story, instead of creating a story to fit the character. And he kept reinforcing that portrayal:

    The reluctant king, who would rather putter around in a lap, and had to ask for help at every single crisis.

    And, at the end of the story, how has he grown, how has he changed? He's STILL a reluctant king, now emperor. He STILL had to ask for help, from every character he could find (so long as they had sufficient melanin).

    And all for a Wakanda that's supposedly a beacon of hope, despite the fact that he spent years showing it as a hive of corruption, based on a history of colonialism, containing citizens who devolved into imperialism once they became cut off from Earth. People hate his Wakanda, because TNC spent issue after issue showing how bad & weak it was, only to try to course-correct at the last minute with a few panels of people smiling.

    Based solely on what he's shown, NOT what he wants us to believe, I wouldn't visit Coates' Wakanda if you PAID me.
    And thats what I'm saying. The writers are always going to introduce flaws. I dont think that's inherently bad, its about how its done. Look at my venom example again? Yo make that story they introduced a ton of stuff about him and his past that wasn't there before. Heck look at X men, they had to COMPLETELY revamp an entire characters history for this to make sense. Introducing flaws or conflicts is something every writer is going to do at Marvel when they get the hands on these characters

    And that leads directly into the depiction of Wakanda, which was fleshed out more and incorporated into that model. I dont think they were ever going to make it a perfect place with a perfect history and whatnot, because you cant make a story out of that, and the writrs there would always utilize that to pull a story out of.

    As for it being weak, i don't know if I'd go that far but honestly I can chalk that up to establishing threat, unfortunately its a prime candidate for that sort of thing because of reputation. Its like another New York where any time they need a world threatened they will show Wakanda as being ravaged to show how tough the bad guy is.

    Id still visit Wakand in universe lol. Can't be worse than people still living in New York lol

  15. #6735
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    And thats what I'm saying. The writers are always going to introduce flaws. I dont think that's inherently bad, its about how its done.
    Yeah and Coates didn't do it well. Half because I just dont' think he is good at writing comics (read his interviews or even when he was doing the youtube series thing... what he explained in those things never came across on panel), and half because I don't think Coates really likes T'challa as he is traditionally portrayed.

    You could easily tweak Coates main plot and make it much more palatable. Especially since we know his ending now, it makes the tweaks i've mentioned before work just fine.

    The whole 4 years should have centered around, "Does Wakanda need T'challa as King? Does Wakanda need the Black Panther as King." And through those four years, when you get to the end, the story should have been set up so the answer was "Yes, The Black Panther is Wakanda."

    The Space Arc was the perfect time to do it. We saw a Wakanda with no Black Panther... they were conquerors. They turned bad.

    Hell, you can even keep the "do I even want to be king?" part of season 1... but instead of outside people like Chang and Tetu forcing the issue.. T'challa can start to have some self doubt into himself. A lot of shit went down during his reign and a lot of it was because of his decisions. Is he even the right person for the Job? Maybe he brought back shuri to give the crown back. Maybe the monarchy should end.

    I have no problem with T'challa having those thoughts... but all the deconstruction needs to be rebuilt with the answer of, "Yes, T'challa is King and should be King"

    (and for F sakes... let him beat a villain lol. Bast have mercy)
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