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  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    It's a million-dollar question with a 1.3 billion-dollar answer:



    If you think Disney cares about ANYTHING other than the bottom line, I have this bridge…
    No T'Challa = No $ from me●
    Reality is for those who are afraid of science fiction.

  2. #347
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The rhetoric of revolution is far more seductive to general audiences than the politics of moderation. Killmonger is not unique in that. Doom, Namor, and Magneto are characters that have built substantial fanbases predicated on the belief that while their methods are barbaric and immoral, they ultimately serve a greater good for the world or their "people". Killmonger was gonna be seen as a viable successor to T'Challa no matter how unstable Coogler depicted him.

    His radical approach to changing the status quo of black folks globally resonates too strong for some people to just write him off. Killmonger is everything that posters have described him as: an angry black man, a hotep, a sociopath obsessed with domination, etc. Let's not act like that's not a type of fiction attractive to many people, especially in the times we're currently in.
    Yup, we saw the effects radical/"revolutionary" talk last week.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    yeah. all true. and you'll never see me make that guy a hero in anything i write.

    magneto is a racist butcher.
    Namor is a genocidal killer
    Doom is, well, he's the bad guy so, whatever on him.
    Exactly. For all the nuance and righteousness of their causes, the characters we've named are murderers who often fall prey to their own ego. They deserve some level of sympathy and in some cases they may even do the right thing, but when push comes to shove they are not good people and they need to be defeated by the actual heroes of the story. Coogler struck that balance with Killmonger. It's not his fault at all that people are going around saying "Killmonger was right" or that after everything they've seen from him, he'd be an adequate successor.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    But when in life do we actually get to vent. When do we actually get to be as angry as we want to be, as we feel we deserve to be, instead we tell ourselves we have to be better than and worry about how we will come off looking to others. Killmonger as basic as he seems in this world for a black character, was actually kind of revolutionary. I don't know maybe i'm a sociopath too but i felt nothing for Tchalla he felt spoiled, he felt coddled, Tchalla to me lived a life too similar to what i lived whereas killmonmger lived a life i didn't even know people lived, like really lived until i was older. I mean i knew, a lot of my friends would have been killmonger and who am i to say why anyone does anything. Why do people after being arrested still go out on the streets and sell drugs, or do any of the many things they do that get them arrested. Why do some people who make it feel like they abandoned the hood and why do others think they changed. For me and to me, Killmonger made that movie.
    And I agree 100%. Killmonger is black rage personified. Centuries of enslavement, imperialism, and denial brought to the big screen in the most daunting display of black social consciousness in cinematic history. There's something deeply cathartic as a black person hearing the things he said about Wakanda and the whole world. Hell you don't even need to be black to relate to these ideas of oppression that he brings up. But he was also a murdering, sociopathic warlord corrupted by the very institutions he wanted to destroy.

    We can recognize the validity of Killmonger's criticisms and identify with his rage while admitting his irredeemable nature. The senselessness of his violence and futility of his global war make it so as an audience we're supposed to reject him and his politics. It's not about being better than them it's about being the best version of ourselves and moving in the way that'll actually help people.

    T'Challa provided that counterpoint but as I've said in past posts the narrative of the film would've been served better if he was also enraged at the condition of black folks from the beginning. But instead of proposing a bloody revolution like Killmonger, we could see him advocate for socio-economic reforms spearheaded by Wakanda. We get that "enlightened" T'Challa by the end of film but for the majority of the movie Killmonger's criticisms basically go unchallenged because T'Challa is still essentially an isolationist. I wish we got to see more of the back and forth between the two about how to actually help black folks, but T'Challa letting go of his ancestor's beliefs was his arc.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Exactly. For all the nuance and righteousness of their causes, the characters we've named are murderers who often fall prey to their own ego. They deserve some level of sympathy and in some cases they may even do the right thing, but when push comes to shove they are not good people and they need to be defeated by the actual heroes of the story. Coogler struck that balance with Killmonger. It's not his fault at all that people are going around saying "Killmonger was right" or that after everything they've seen from him, he'd be an adequate successor.



    And I agree 100%. Killmonger is black rage personified. Centuries of enslavement, imperialism, and denial brought to the big screen in the most daunting display of black social consciousness in cinematic history. There's something deeply cathartic as a black person hearing the things he said about Wakanda and the whole world. Hell you don't even need to be black to relate to these ideas of oppression that he brings up. But he was also a murdering, sociopathic warlord corrupted by the very institutions he wanted to destroy.

    We can recognize the validity of Killmonger's criticisms and identify with his rage while admitting his irredeemable nature. The senselessness of his violence and futility of his global war make it so as an audience we're supposed to reject him and his politics. It's not about being better than them it's about being the best version of ourselves and moving in the way that'll actually help people.

    T'Challa provided that counterpoint but as I've said in past posts the narrative of the film would've been served better if he was also enraged at the condition of black folks from the beginning. But instead of proposing a bloody revolution like Killmonger, we could see him advocate for socio-economic reforms spearheaded by Wakanda. We get that "enlightened" T'Challa by the end of film but for the majority of the movie Killmonger's criticisms basically go unchallenged because T'Challa is still essentially an isolationist. I wish we got to see more of the back and forth between the two about how to actually help black folks, but T'Challa letting go of his ancestor's beliefs was his arc.
    And i feel you hit the nail on the head for me on why this wasn't a tchalla movie. For me he had no voice, no answers, no objections that the me now would say "hold up, or anarchy isn't the way." I have friends who are in a lot of ways Erik Killmonger to my Tchalla and once i didn't know what to say, now i do. I wish tchalla got to speak for me or as someone i could relate to in his own movie.

    Again i admit i can be messed up and i'm a smoke an a few drinks into a day of relaxation but in my soul i just don't feel you can be black excellence if you are in a world where you know other blacks are going through what they are going through and don't step in. I just don't feel that in my spirit.
    Last edited by jwatson; 01-12-2021 at 01:16 PM.
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  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And i feel you hit the nail on the head for me on why this wasn't a tchalla movie. For me he had no voice, no answers, no objections that the me now would say "hold up, or anarchy isn't the way." I have friends who are in a lot of ways Erik Killmonger to my Tchalla and once i didn't know what to say, now i do. I wish tchalla got to speak for me or as someone i could relate to in his own movie.
    I'd still say it was a T'Challa movie, it's just focusing on a unique arc. In his first few comic appearances he's already an enlightened warrior-king with a global agenda. His dad had been assassinated when he was a child so T'Challa developed his own political compass by the time he took the throne in his mid-20s. In the MCU T'Challa is exactly as you described, coddled under the support of his father, so he has to undergo a political/moral shift much later in life (early-mid 30s).

    Coogler's Black Panther was that story, T'Challa unlearning the flawed lessons of his predecessor. I don't think Coogler HAD to go that route, but it was a valid idea to explore. But in terms of giving T'Challa agency and a stronger dynamic with Killmonger, I think he would've benefited a lot more from actually engaging Killmonger's criticisms from the jump, rather than just adopting Nakia's viewpoint by the end credit scene.

  6. #351
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And i feel you hit the nail on the head for me on why this wasn't a tchalla movie. For me he had no voice, no answers, no objections that the me now would say "hold up, or anarchy isn't the way." I have friends who are in a lot of ways Erik Killmonger to my Tchalla and once i didn't know what to say, now i do. I wish tchalla got to speak for me or as someone i could relate to in his own movie.

    Again i admit i can be messed up and i'm a smoke an a few drinks into a day of relaxation but in my soul i just don't feel you can be black excellence if you are in a world where you know other blacks are going through what they are going through and don't step in. I just don't feel that in my spirit.
    Part of it comes from a very western "I've got mine, f*** you!" way of thinking. Throw in some stuff about bootstraps and personal responsibility while you're at it. The hyper competitive culture we live in has turned equality into a zero sum game. Black excellence feels like a club, and they only let certain people in, and they shove the rest of us out unless we prove ourselves. It doesn't have to be this way, but it is. Representation is all about getting a seat at the table right, well, the thing about that is that the people who own the table make the rest of us playing musical chairs set to 20 minute prog rock songs with lighting fast time signature changes. We're so distracted by this we don't stop to ask why the table is so small in the first place.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    Part of it comes from a very western "I've got mine, f*** you!" way of thinking. Throw in some stuff about bootstraps and personal responsibility while you're at it. The hyper competitive culture we live in has turned equality into a zero sum game. Black excellence feels like a club, and they only let certain people in, and they shove the rest of us out unless we prove ourselves. It doesn't have to be this way, but it is. Representation is all about getting a seat at the table right, well, the thing about that is that the people who own the table make the rest of us playing musical chairs set to 20 minute prog rock songs with lighting fast time signature changes. We're so distracted by this we don't stop to ask why the table is so small in the first place.
    This and from the Wakandan POV they don't got nothing to do with black people. Which is a common sentiment throughout African history and the history of every place on Earth before the rise of the nation state. There was no concept of black pride or European Unions, just strong kingdoms and weaker ones. Wakanda was a strong kingdom that minded its own business and probably couldn't have stopped the Scramble for Africa even if they tried. All that suffering they allowed was a political/security convenience that T'Challa had to change by the end of the film when he realized how immoral and impractical it was. The goal of his Wakanda (as far as the MCU is concerned at least) is to empower people so the table is expanded for the benefit of everyone.
    Last edited by chief12d; 01-12-2021 at 02:06 PM.

  8. #353
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Western movie watchers: sees antagonist that has a complex arc

    Western movie watchers: Is this the main character of the movie?

  9. #354
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    I like this discussion

  10. #355
    Ultimate Life Form BlackClaw's Avatar
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    This may seem random but do you guys think it’s time T’Challa has a pet join the royal family? I always pictured it being a feline obviously, but to make himself stand out it would be a mythical feline. Preferably one like a Nunda/Mngwa which is a giant mythical feline that’s said to live in Africa.

    48B62D8F-028B-440C-9BFB-01AE3FDE839C.jpg

    Just picture something like this but black.
    T'Challa
    A.K.A. The Black Panther
    King of Wakanda
    King of the Dead and The Champion of Bast
    Two-Time Time Magazine "Person Of The Year"
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  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    This may seem random but do you guys think it’s time T’Challa has a pet join the royal family? I always pictured it being a feline obviously, but to make himself stand out it would be a mythical feline. Preferably one like a Nunda/Mngwa which is a giant mythical feline that’s said to live in Africa.

    48B62D8F-028B-440C-9BFB-01AE3FDE839C.jpg

    Just picture something like this but black.
    I've thought for a while now a regular black leopard sized prowler with better than animal intelligence to hang out with in the techno-jungle would be cool. Maybe an experiment of his to see if a.i. can evolve on its own.
    Reality is for those who are afraid of science fiction.

  12. #357
    Fantastic Member XJlock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    This may seem random but do you guys think it’s time T’Challa has a pet join the royal family? I always pictured it being a feline obviously, but to make himself stand out it would be a mythical feline. Preferably one like a Nunda/Mngwa which is a giant mythical feline that’s said to live in Africa.

    48B62D8F-028B-440C-9BFB-01AE3FDE839C.jpg

    Just picture something like this but black.
    They are not mythical, but he already has two black panthers that may serve as his pets.


  13. #358
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    Considering how panthers are basically sacred animals in Wakanda I'd assume that T'Challa has several of them as pets and they have free reign throughout the palace. We don't really see him developing any close friendships with them though, so maybe he has a mystical panther that's been with him from birth that he has a special bond with.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Western movie watchers: sees antagonist that has a complex arc

    Western movie watchers: Is this the main character of the movie?
    Bingo. A villain can be compelling. It doesn't stop him from being a villain and it doesn't excuse his crimes.

    If anyone thought that Killmonger was right in his approach to either kill or enslave other people(that would include some innocent people too) because of circumstances, I just don't know.

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    This may seem random but do you guys think it’s time T’Challa has a pet join the royal family? I always pictured it being a feline obviously, but to make himself stand out it would be a mythical feline. Preferably one like a Nunda/Mngwa which is a giant mythical feline that’s said to live in Africa.

    48B62D8F-028B-440C-9BFB-01AE3FDE839C.jpg

    Just picture something like this but black.

    Then he can hang out with Ka-Zar and Zabu.

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