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  1. #7531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    The problem with Coates is that one benefitted at the expense of the other when he could have had both male and females be exceptional.

    Nearly every male in the story had to fail. No One Man. Where did that come from? What has T'Challa done that would make the Midnight Angels act in this manner?
    Maybe he was trying to address sexism? I'm not sure if he did a good job though

  2. #7532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk if Coates run entirely counts as anti-male, but I'd prefer the MCU not adapt some of his more extreme ideas.

    My point is some of these comments seem to come off as if male heroes are somehow being threatened with extinction now, when in reality female heroes are far less common.
    No oneís talking about male characters as a whole, just the BP franchise. Itís a fact that outside TíChalla the bench of male BP-related characters is weak both in and outside the comics. Itís also a fact that the only side characters really getting a push are women, namely Shuri and the Dora Milaje led by Okoye.

    No one has said itís inherently a bad thing but itís worth pointing out that as of late traditional BP male supporting characters havenít been getting much to work with story-wise and the movies seem to be doubling down on that with 4/5 of the returning cast being women. Should the premier black-led IP in pop culture not have strong male leads/secondary characters?

  3. #7533
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    No one’s talking about male characters as a whole, just the BP franchise. It’s a fact that outside T’Challa the bench of male BP-related characters is weak both in and outside the comics. It’s also a fact that the only side characters really getting a push are women, namely Shuri and the Dora Milaje led by Okoye.

    No one has said it’s inherently a bad thing but it’s worth pointing out that as of late traditional BP male supporting characters haven’t been getting much to work with story-wise and the movies seem to be doubling down on that with 4/5 of the returning cast being women. Should the premier black-led IP in pop culture not have strong male leads/secondary characters?
    It can have more Black males. Of course. But can you really separate it from Marvel as a whole. BP isn't the only Black superhero franchise at Marvel, and from what I've seen, Black male heroes have been more prominent than female ones. IMO the competition isn't even between these two demographics. The problem is the over abundance of White male heroes

  4. #7534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Maybe he was trying to address sexism? I'm not sure if he did a good job though
    He was trying to address a problem that didn't exist. Ramonda strong leader. Shuri strong leader, became Black Panther. Dora Milaje get names and fame. Hatute Zeraze? Just a bunch of Redshirts. Back Hand Barry got his name from this thread.

    All of this happened way before Coates came along.

  5. #7535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    It can have more Black males. Of course. But can you really separate it from Marvel as a whole. BP isn't the only Black superhero franchise at Marvel, and from what I've seen, Black male heroes have been more prominent than female ones. IMO the competition isn't even between these two demographics. The problem is the over abundance of White male heroes
    There is no other Black Male superhero franchise at Marvel. Not at the level of BP.

  6. #7536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    He was trying to address a problem that didn't exist. Ramonda strong leader. Shuri strong leader, became Black Panther. Dora Milaje get names and fame. Hatute Zeraze? Just a bunch of Redshirts. Back Hand Barry got his name from this thread.

    All of this happened way before Coates came along.
    I meant sexism in general. Black Panther comics probably wasn't the place to address those issues he tried to

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    There is no other Black Male superhero franchise at Marvel. Not at the level of BP.
    Not a franchise, but there are Black male heroes, including Falcon, War Machine, Patriot, Bishop, etc. It's not nearly enough, I agree on that.

  7. #7537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    It can have more Black males. Of course. But can you really separate it from Marvel as a whole. BP isn't the only Black superhero franchise at Marvel, and from what I've seen, Black male heroes have been more prominent than female ones. IMO the competition isn't even between these two demographics. The problem is the over abundance of White male heroes
    So because Blade and Falcon exist itís fine for decades-long BP supporting characters like WíKabi and Zuri to get completely sidelined and ignored and for TíChalla to be the only relevant black male in his own mythos? When we play the game of demographics parsed up against wider trends we end up ignoring the unique set of circumstances and characters in individual franchises.

    Black Panther has ever since the days of Priest done a solid job incorporating a rather equal balance of men and women of note, yet due to a variety of reasons the spectrum has completely tilted in ways that have mostly minimized key aspects of BP lore which just so happen to be embodied by men. Notice that TíChalla hasnít had any friends ever since Zuri and WíKabi died and that he hasnít actually been truly mentoring/guiding anyone ever since Vibraxas fell into obscurity. Thatís not an ideal environment to tell stories in and if we think about this in terms of social justice, itís not a good look that in your biggest black-led IP, black men outside TíChalla are either irrelevant or villains.

    And thatís regardless of how the wider MU looks. The solution to the lack of strong black female characters shouldnít be to turn BP into an ensemble where TíChallaís the only male but to elevate other black female characters like Storm, Spectrum, and Misty Knight. Or to spin-off a character like Shuri or Ironheart.

  8. #7538
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    So because Blade and Falcon exist it’s fine for decades-long BP supporting characters like W’Kabi and Zuri to get completely sidelined and ignored and for T’Challa to be the only relevant black male in his own mythos? When we play the game of demographics parsed up against wider trends we end up ignoring the unique set of circumstances and characters in individual franchises.

    Black Panther has ever since the days of Priest done a solid job incorporating a rather equal balance of men and women of note, yet due to a variety of reasons the spectrum has completely tilted in ways that have mostly minimized key aspects of BP lore which just so happen to be embodied by men. Notice that T’Challa hasn’t had any friends ever since Zuri and W’Kabi died and that he hasn’t actually been truly mentoring/guiding anyone ever since Vibraxas fell into obscurity. That’s not an ideal environment to tell stories in and if we think about this in terms of social justice, it’s not a good look that in your biggest black-led IP, black men outside T’Challa are either irrelevant or villains.

    And that’s regardless of how the wider MU looks. The solution to the lack of strong black female characters shouldn’t be to turn BP into an ensemble where T’Challa’s the only male but to elevate other black female characters like Storm, Spectrum, and Misty Knight. Or to spin-off a character like Shuri or Ironheart.
    I never said it was ok. Black Panther as a whole should've gotten the same consistent treatment of supporting character which other solo heroes like Spider-Man got. But I don't think that's somehow the fault of feminism or female empowerment. Plus, most of the characters being discussed here aren't actual superheroes like Shuri or Ironheart

  9. #7539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I meant sexism in general. Black Panther comics probably wasn't the place to address those issues he tried to



    Not a franchise, but there are Black male heroes, including Falcon, War Machine, Patriot, Bishop, etc. It's not nearly enough, I agree on that.
    The problem is that while these other characters are pretty good, most of them with the exception of Bishop and Blade are legacy characters and won't be able to sustain their own franchise. You can't build a round them because they don't have their own identity.

    BP has his own unique identity to build a whole world around him.

    As far as sexism, for all of the problems I have with the X-Men, they have done the best job of having male and female characters exist together and not at the expense of the other. Spidey is getting their with his family of titles. Avengers has been working towards that with their line-up of female-solo titles, but it's strange with the backlash they get for Captain Marvel.

  10. #7540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaue's Mixtape View Post
    Gotta admit this looks better than the films throne room
    I really fail to see the difference




    It's arguably the same design but there is more artificial lighting because it's a video game.

    I also can't help but notice that y'all have let some anti-male conspiracy infect your minds like Freddy Krueger. I don't even get it.

  11. #7541
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    The problem is that while these other characters are pretty good, most of them with the exception of Bishop and Blade are legacy characters and won't be able to sustain their own franchise. You can't build a round them because they don't have their own identity.

    BP has his own unique identity to build a whole world around him.

    As far as sexism, for all of the problems I have with the X-Men, they have done the best job of having male and female characters exist together and not at the expense of the other. Spidey is getting their with his family of titles. Avengers has been working towards that with their line-up of female-solo titles, but it's strange with the backlash they get for Captain Marvel.
    Idk if that's entirely true. Ms Marvel is based on Captain Marvel/Ms Marvel yet has her own identity. I think the problem is just Marvel sees these characters as sidekicks, plus they won't older heroes retire. But even at that, guys like War Machine should be pushed whether they're tied to another franchise or not. I think really it's more of a problem of Marvel not making effort rather than anything inherent. And Falcon did get a starring title as Captain America for a while but status quo is king after all.

    I think X-Men does do a good job with female characters. I don't get why Captain Marvel got pushback though. I even saw pushback from fans of other female heroes, like the X-Women.

    I should mention Luke Cage as another Black hero with his own original identity

  12. #7542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk if that's entirely true. Ms Marvel is based on Captain Marvel/Ms Marvel yet has her own identity. I think the problem is just Marvel sees these characters as sidekicks, plus they won't older heroes retire. But even at that, guys like War Machine should be pushed whether they're tied to another franchise or not. I think really it's more of a problem of Marvel not making effort rather than anything inherent.

    I think X-Men does do a good job with female characters. I don't get why Captain Marvel got pushback though. I even saw pushback from fans of other female heroes, like the X-Women.
    The difference for Carol is that there is no Mar-Vell to swoop in and reclaim the title. It's hers and hers alone now.

  13. #7543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    The difference for Carol is that there is no Mar-Vell to swoop in and reclaim the title. It's hers and hers alone now.
    Ok, but most of those heroes have their own titles. Miles and Peter have the same title and he's very popular right now.

  14. #7544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I never said it was ok. Black Panther as a whole should've gotten the same consistent treatment of supporting character which other solo heroes like Spider-Man got. But I don't think that's somehow the fault of feminism or female empowerment. Plus, most of the characters being discussed here aren't actual superheroes like Shuri or Ironheart
    To be clear, I don’t think it has to do with sexism so much as how Hudlin kinda screwed over the supporting cast built by Priest. Ignoring Vibraxas and Cole, killing off Zuri and W’Kabi. Coates made it worse because he has clear anti-male bias that led to there being no genuine attempt to rebuild the male supporting characters lost over the years, while only giving energy to the female side characters.

    The movie mostly did it right and it’s only because Boseman’s not with us that the gender imbalance is really apparent. Hence the unfortunate circumstances I alluded to in a previous post, it kinda is what it is at this point. Either way I’m really happy about the Crystal Dynamics’ take on Wakanda and hope they do a great job with the side characters they chose to use alongside T’Challa. I think synergy with the MCU was inevitable but it seems to just be window dressing like the design of certain military gear and some characters like Shuri. The real question of synergy will come from whether we get MCU T’Challa or a more Priest/Redjack take. Will this T’Challa have tension with and manipulate the Avengers? Will he take a more brutal, ruthless approach?

  15. #7545
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    To be clear, I don’t think it has to do with sexism so much as how Hudlin kinda screwed over the supporting cast built by Priest. Ignoring Vibraxas and Cole, killing off Zuri and W’Kabi. Coates made it worse because he has clear anti-male bias that led to there being no genuine attempt to rebuild the male supporting characters lost over the years, while only giving energy to the female side characters.

    The movie mostly did it right and it’s only because Boseman’s not with us that the gender imbalance is really apparent. Hence the unfortunate circumstances I alluded to in a previous post, it kinda is what it is at this point. Either way I’m really happy about the Crystal Dynamics’ take on Wakanda and hope they do a great job with the side characters they chose to use alongside T’Challa. I think synergy with the MCU was inevitable but it seems to just be window dressing like the design of certain military gear and some characters like Shuri. The real question of synergy will come from whether we get MCU T’Challa or a more Priest/Redjack take. Will this T’Challa have tension with and manipulate the Avengers? Will he take a more brutal, ruthless approach?
    I feel like Coates could've used a more already male-centric comic to point out sexism in society. However, he did have several male characters which some here don't seem to like that much

    I though the movie focused too much on the supporting cast at T'Challa's expense. Outside of Shuri, Okoye and Ross, I didn't think all those characters needed so much screentime. But I agree it's more due to Boseman's passing there is a gender imbalance. I don't see it as some anti-male agenda, anymore than Black Panther as a whole series is some anti-White agenda.

    Tbh, I don't think T'Challa needs to be a brutal, ruthless person. Mistrusting, wary or secretive, yeah, but I don't he needs to be antagonistic to other Avengers unless they start causing trouble first. Idk what exactly the game has planned for him

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