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  1. #3991
    Astonishing Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Starting to think Ava might have been the best thing for Tchalla specifically if had her way.

  2. #3992
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    I stopped talking here as much because I'm quite tired of the same repetitive discussions about the current comic books and debates about the first film. But I think I'm most annoyed by what I'm perceiving as an attempt to downplay everything Coogler did for that and using Chadwick's death as an excuse for that.

    I have to agree with DigiCom about the revisionist history: When Ava DuVernay did not get on board to direct the film, many of you were thanking the stars because you thought she might have done the same things Coates was doing in the comics because she is a woman and an outspoken feminist. But now because she did the bare minimum of putting an action figure in her show (something Coogler and Feige were partially responsible for) she's now suddenly the best thing for the character?

    This isn't a slight towards her because I'm actually a fan of her work (unlike most here I assume, but forgive me if I'm wrong) but she hasn't even proven that she can handle big IPs and fantasy films. A Wrinkle in Time was disappointment and a flop, she dropped out of Black Panther for a reason (and ot certainly wasn't because she wanted to do too good for T'Challa), and she has quit making New Gods for DC. At least Ryan Coogler proved with Creed that he could make a great franchise film and also direct fight scenes, which DuVernay hasn't proven she can actually do.

    And sure, an MCU Black Panther movie would have always been successful. However what makes a film special comes from the specific vision of a director, and Coogler and DuVernay had different visions because they are different directors and people. Without Coogler you don't get the Oscar winning score because Ludwig Goransson has been his friend for years. Without Coogler you don't get Rachel Morisson's cinematography who is also his close friend. You don't get the overarching theme of partenal legacy because that's a big theme in Coogler's films. You probably wouldn't even get the same cast because a few of them signed on because of Coogler.

    You don't get the same kind of film even if you get an MCU Black Panther film, because Ryan Coogler was hired for his vision, and it's he that has proven twice that his vision for franchise films can be successful, not DuVernay. Putting a toy in a TV show does not prove that she has any more respect for the character to recast the role, than the person who actually made the film and arguably made the character in film iconic in the first place. At least give a reason why you'd think she's a good choice other than the fact that she's not Ryan Coogler.

    But like I said, the discussion is repetitive and tiring. If anything new is being said it's just increasingly negative. I'm just tired of the idea that random people like us on the internet think we knew Chadwick Boseman better than the the people who actually worked with and were his friends. I'm sure almost if not none of us who think our emotions are somehow more valid never even met Chadwick. We only saw him on screen. None of us knew what he wanted.

  3. #3993
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Starting to think Ava might have been the best thing for Tchalla specifically if had her way.
    Bruh, grief has made you lose your mind haha.

    Big no on Ava. Big no when it was first hinted and big no since. She has proven nothing in regards to big budget movies like this.

    The best thing for T'challa would have been Chadwick not dying. Or maybe not hiding he was dying. Either way, this is cancers fault.


    If anything new is being said it's just increasingly negative. I'm just tired of the idea that random people like us on the internet think we knew Chadwick Boseman better than the the people who actually worked with and were his friends. I'm sure almost if not none of us who think our emotions are somehow more valid never even met Chadwick. We only saw him on screen. None of us knew what he wanted.
    To be fair, his own brother said recast though.

    I, personally and not speaking for others on #teamrecast, don't have much of a problem with Chadwick's co-workers going, "I don't want to recast because I can't emotionally handle it," type of thing. My general problem with some of the stuff released from Team Marvel is that a) I don't know why they rushed any announcements while the wound was really really really fucking fresh and b) it has turned into a "T'challa isnt important and doesn't mean anything. Wakanda is important" which is very... weird considering they beat over the head how "important" T'challa was to the black community or whatever last movie. It feels very very very very cooperate. A lot of this situation seems fake as hell. But that is hollywood so whatever I suppose.

    I think continually complaining about it in this thread is getting tiresome though. Especially since the jig is up. THe movie has bene redone, moved to a date, and ready to go. The big honchos have spoken. Game is over, decide to spend with your wallet or not at this point.

    She's an oscar winner. Although I would argue that Angela Bassett is more recognizable to the general public.
    Angela is definitely more recognizable than Lupita but I don't think she is "star power" recognizable. More like, "hey I know her!" type recognizable lol.

    Lupita was also famous for modeling before she became famous for acting. Staring is Us is the biggest role the rest of hte cast has had.

    I would say Danai is more recognizable but judging from the reaction of Ayo in Fal/WS... all bald black chicks look alike to a lot of people lol.
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  4. #3994
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    Why is Duvernay being a feminist bad for Black Panther?

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I would say Danai is more recognizable but judging from the reaction of Ayo in Fal/WS... all bald black chicks look alike to a lot of people lol.
    People really thought Ayo was Okoye?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    People really thought Ayo was Okoye?
    Embarrassingly, yes. And you can take a wild guess at which people thought that. Lmao.
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  6. #3996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why is Duvernay being a feminist bad for Black Panther?



    People really thought Ayo was Okoye?
    No one in this thread has said feminism is bad for BP, that’s just people projecting and misinterpreting the issues some fans have with creators like Coates. Feminism informing BP is not a bad thing, using feminism to sideline T’Challa in his own book and cast aspersions on his character is stupid and deserves to be called out.

    For some reason BP gets saddled with feminist writers who use their books to say things like T’Challa became king because he was a man or who conjure up the mass raping of Wakandan women to justify particular story beats. Criticisms of these types of directions is not anti-feminist nor do I have an issue with a self-described feminist coming onto BP as long as their ideology doesn’t result in the mischaracterization of T’Challa and his world.

    The KIB tie-in for BP was more feminist than the entirety of the Coates run and it did right by every character involved. The recognition that women (especially black women) have been marginalized in comics and often aren’t given fair degrees of agency and competence does not mean a writer gets free reign to disparage T’Challa or imply sexism where none previously existed. It’s bad faith writing and often reveals they don’t care about Black Panther as much as they like shitting on the concept to make themselves feel smart.
    Last edited by chief12d; 04-15-2021 at 07:08 AM.

  7. #3997
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    Embarrassingly, yes. And you can take a wild guess at which people thought that. Lmao.
    I shouldn't be surprised at this point anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    No one in this thread has said feminism is bad for BP, that’s just people projecting and misinterpreting the issues some fans have with creators like Coates. Feminism informing BP is not a bad thing, using feminism to sideline T’Challa in his own book and cast aspersions on his character is stupid and deserves to be called out.

    For some reason BP gets saddled with feminist writers who use their books to say things like T’Challa became king because he was a man or who conjure up the mass raping of Wakandan women to justify particular story beats. Criticisms of these types of directions is not anti-feminist nor do I have an issue with a self-described feminist coming onto BP as long as their ideology doesn’t result in the mischaracterization of T’Challa and his world.

    The KIB tie-in for BP was more feminist than the entirety of the Coates run and it did right by every character involved. The recognition that women (especially black women) have been marginalized in comics and often aren’t given fair degrees of agency and competence does not mean a writer gets free reign to disparage T’Challa or imply sexism where none previously existed. It’s bad faith writing and often reveals they don’t care about Black Panther as much as they shitting on the concept to make themselves feel smart.
    I mean, it's not unreasonable to think Wakanda has problems with sexism, but idk if "mass raping" is really a good idea at all. I don't remember T'Challa ever expressing sexist opinions himself either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I shouldn't be surprised at this point anymore.



    I mean, it's not unreasonable to think Wakanda has problems with sexism, but idk if "mass raping" is really a good idea at all. I don't remember T'Challa ever expressing sexist opinions himself either.
    That’s my point, we can reasonably assume some tribes have more traditional beliefs about gender roles and such (just like anywhere else in the world), but to make the jump to rape camps and systemic misogyny is just blatantly bad writing done in bad faith. Likewise, while T’Challa hasn’t been written to make any sexist statements the implication that he became BP because he was a man is asinine and a complete rejection of established canon that has no basis in fact. So yea I stand by my point that feminism in BP is ok, encouraged in fact as I like strong black female characters, but not when it comes at the expense of T’Challa or is taken to cartoonish levels.

  9. #3999
    Mighty Member Vanguard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    Embarrassingly, yes. And you can take a wild guess at which people thought that. Lmao.
    Lmao dead....

  10. #4000
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    That’s my point, we can reasonably assume some tribes have more traditional beliefs about gender roles and such (just like anywhere else in the world), but to make the jump to rape camps and systemic misogyny is just blatantly bad writing done in bad faith. Likewise, while T’Challa hasn’t been written to make any sexist statements the implication that he became BP because he was a man is asinine and a complete rejection of established canon that has no basis in fact. So yea I stand by my point that feminism in BP is ok, encouraged in fact as I like strong black female characters, but not when it comes at the expense of T’Challa or is taken to cartoonish levels.
    I don't think it's impossible to presume even the Wakandan monarchy is more male-oriented. Most traditional societies were. However, has it ever been said beforehand the ruler couldn't be female?

  11. #4001
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    However, has it ever been said beforehand the ruler couldn't be female?
    Never.

    No one batted an eye when Shuri took the throne... except that one tribal dude who was more mad she embarrassed Wakanda by being a socialte. The one tribal dude that then got his ass beat after they settled it in combat. WHich is the Wakandan way.

    Coates showed female panthers as well. I think Hudlin showed one.
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  12. #4002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think it's impossible to presume even the Wakandan monarchy is more male-oriented. Most traditional societies were. However, has it ever been said beforehand the ruler couldn't be female?
    It would be incorrect to presume that because it’s been established for decades anyone can be BP. Male/female, noble/commoner, etc. The only requirement is that you win Challenge Day (defeat the reigning BP in a trial by combat) and are approved by the Panther Goddess Bast. In the comics we know of at least one female BP by name with Nehanda, and T’Challa has referred to “queens” in his bloodline as recently as Jason Aaron’s Avengers. In the BP cartoon you have Yemandi and even in the BP movie you see several women who like T’Chaka wore the BP mantle and could be seen by T’Challa in the Ancestral Plane.

    There has never been any implication women could not be BP and the idea that sex was even a factor in T’Challa’s ascension is not only objectively false, it goes against established canon where he was simply a better fighter and in the right place at the right time to take the mantle from his uncle. In fact despite T’Challa being a superior fighter, being the elder sibling, and being the preferred champion of the god that give the BP their powers, the people of Wakanda largely preferred Shuri because they felt she was more in line with a traditional ruler than her brother. Gender has never been a big deal when it comes to who sits on the throne and how they are treated by the people.

  13. #4003
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    Seems inconsistent then.

    I think it's impossible for any society to have no sexist history, but it's very possible Wakanda is far less sexist than most societies, if not the least sexist.

  14. #4004
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Seems inconsistent then.

    I think it's impossible for any society to have no sexist history, but it's very possible Wakanda is far less sexist than most societies, if not the least sexist.
    There are 100% some sexist ****.

    The Dora's is a very weird concept in general with sexist origins.

    The issue, IMHO, is T'challa IS NOT sexist and doesn't tolerate that ****.

    Rape Camps is one thing... T'challa not taking down rape camps with extreme prejudice is a different thing. T'challa being hinted at doing anything at all with the Dora's is complete BS. "Serve him in all ways" is insulting. Coates own brain couldn't handle it so projected this crap onto T'challa and Wakanda. And this isn't me making **** up because I dont like him, he said as much:

    Quote Originally Posted by TNC
    I remember having a conversation with Axel. Axel is a fan of the Dora Milaje—Black Panther's all-female bodyguards—and I wasn't a fan initially. But, the more I read, the more I liked them. To be frank with you, though, something about their origin sort of bothered me when I thought about the real world. The Dora Milaje are raised to be the bodyguards for Black Panther, for the king of Wakanda, but depending on whose rendition you're looking at, they're also raised to potentially become his wife. And when you write stories, you try to pull from real life, right? You think, OK, let's bring that as close to reality as we can. Even recognizing that it's a comic book, what would that look like? What would it mean? Given what I know of men in the real world and what I know of men throughout history, that's a situation that's ripe for abuse.
    Long long long ago, this is when a lot of us went, "uh oh."
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    There are 100% some sexist ****.

    Given what I know of men in the real world and what I know of men throughout history, that's a situation that's ripe for abuse.
    What set of men is HE talking about? So men abuse women all day long? Does he include himself and his son in that group?

    And that abuse can go BOTH ways. Lifetime has made a fortune off abusive women.

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