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  1. #13756
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Yeah I agree, that why the quotations on the woke.As in these are the comics that pretend to be woke/progressive/etc. but really are just dumb af.

    They need to drop this style/trope in these comics forever
    You can be progressive without it coming off as hamfisted. The problem is that very few people know how to do it so they pull isht like Coates and do they very same thing they say they have issues with but in reverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I don't know how that will work based on what we know but I hope that too.

    And I 100% expect a, "this is why the marriage would never work with you T'challa! You are a paranoid asshole!" line from Storm.

    I just hope Tchalla's response isn't hanging his head and going, "yes my dear." Gotta keep the base in his voice at this point.
    I can see her doing some shot like that. My hope? Ridley has T'Challa counter by mentioning all the shit she had done over the years. PLEASE someone throw that shit back in her face! "this is why the marriage would never work with you T'challa! You are a paranoid asshole!" with T'Challa retorting with "You recently came to Wakanda when I was absent, asked for our help, my family welcomed you in good faith, and you broke into a Wakandan facility, assaulted MY people including me sister, and stole Ancient Wakandan artifact. I may appear paranoid because people have proven time and time again that they can't be trusted when it comes to dealings with my nation."

    Oooooh man something like that would be so smooth, I wish someone would have him call out her hypocrisy

  2. #13757
    Ghost Panther Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Ever read The Old Man and the Sea?

    When a book is all about a character's internal dialogue, but nothing actually happens much, then the quality of characterization becomes meaningless.

    "I woke up and stared at the photo of my late wife, gone 25 years now. I still remembered the perfume she wore. Lilacs & lavender."

    *insert 25 pages of internal monologue about when he first smelled lilacs as a child. And another about how they both used to like peach jam for breakfast, but he hasn't had it since she died*

    "And then, as I had the day off, I sat and watched television until lunch."

    *insert 45 pages about the black & white TV his parents had in their living room, and how he used to have to fiddle with it in order to watch cartoons on Saturday mornings*

    Get the idea?

    It might be bearable in prose. But in a superhero comic...
    And right on the last page, before the end, his arch enemy Dr. Diabolical attacked! Come back for the stunning conclusion of "Lilacs in the Attic!"

  3. #13758
    Mighty Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I don't know how that will work based on what we know but I hope that too.

    And I 100% expect a, "this is why the marriage would never work with you T'challa! You are a paranoid asshole!" line from Storm.

    I just hope Tchalla's response isn't hanging his head and going, "yes my dear." Gotta keep the base in his voice at this point.
    I currently can't think of a reason for him to go to Sol unless he has a spy among them or if the villains are mutants. Would prefer for him not to go there at all but writers are obsessed with shoehorning Storm in BP books while T'Challa's appearance in X books is scarce in comparison and involve having him look bad mostly. If the X-Men have to get involved I'd prefer it be someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    I always thought that a slice of life series would be the perfect way to show what holidays the Wakandans celebrate among other things such as them trying to put together a team for the olympics or trying to figure out how to handle tourism.
    After more than 50 years we barely know anything about Wakandan culture outside of tribal politics. The new gods Coates added served no purpose in the end other than to uplift and replace them with Storm and Zenzi. Either in a side book or part of an issue it'd be cool to see what the major sports in Wakanda are. Do they have basketball, football, boxing, UFC, etc or something unique? Do they have celebrities? Popular movies and shows?

  4. #13759
    Mighty Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    You can be progressive without it coming off as hamfisted. The problem is that very few people know how to do it so they pull isht like Coates and do they very same thing they say they have issues with but in reverse.



    I can see her doing some shot like that. My hope? Ridley has T'Challa counter by mentioning all the shit she had done over the years. PLEASE someone throw that shit back in her face! "this is why the marriage would never work with you T'challa! You are a paranoid asshole!" with T'Challa retorting with "You recently came to Wakanda when I was absent, asked for our help, my family welcomed you in good faith, and you broke into a Wakandan facility, assaulted MY people including me sister, and stole Ancient Wakandan artifact. I may appear paranoid because people have proven time and time again that they can't be trusted when it comes to dealings with my nation."

    Oooooh man something like that would be so smooth, I wish someone would have him call out her hypocrisy
    Writers treat her as someone that can do no wrong and if she does it's someone else's fault. Everything that failed in their marriage is his fault and that they needed to get counseling because of him. Wakandans love her more than they do T'Challa. Under Coates I don't think a single Wakandan called her out on anything, only praised her and call her a goddess.

  5. #13760
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Ah, but as I've said before, bad plot, weak characterization, and florid dialogue are exactly what the "literary" crowd lap up.

    I absolutely despise "literary fiction", because it's snobbish and elitist. "Stories that are 'exciting' and 'popular' are for commoners. We are more concerned with 'merit'."

    I mean, listen to this claptrap:

    Literary fiction often involves social commentary, political criticism, or reflection on the human condition. In general it focuses on "introspective, in-depth character studies" of "interesting, complex and developed" characters. This contrasts with genre fiction where plot is the central concern. Usually in literary fiction the focus is on the "inner story" of the characters who drive the plot, with detailed motivations to elicit "emotional involvement" in the reader. The style of literary fiction is often described as "elegantly written, lyrical, and ... layered". The tone of literary fiction can be darker than genre fiction, while the pacing of literary fiction may be slower than popular fiction. As Terrence Rafferty notes, "literary fiction, by its nature, allows itself to dawdle, to linger on stray beauties even at the risk of losing its way".
    So basically it a palace for the literary types to be free of any sort of contrants of actually telling a story and moving the plot from A to Z. It casually strolls down a windy road and stops to take in the scene, making a 1 hour drive last 4 hours and along the way they potentially get lost as they decide to take a different turn instead of the intended, but this is supposed to be the beauty of the drive, and not the destination... Despite the fact that the kids in the car are tired, hungry, and ready to get out and go wherever they were going on the first place?

    The funny thing about what you quoted was that there was nothing deep, complex or even interesting about Coates take of T'Challa. It wasn't an in depth character study. Everything came off as superfluous and surface deep.

    No one said anything despite talking on and on. It wasn't any darker or layered than any other BP run, it was just racially stereotyped. By the end of it as a reader you weren't emotionally involved with any of the characters save T'Challa and that was more of a annoyance of his poor portrayal. I would say Priest run had a better grasp on the stuff the literary types are talking about than Coates and he didn't have T'Challa utter a single word of introspective dialogue

  6. #13761
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    I currently can't think of a reason for him to go to Sol unless he has a spy among them or if the villains are mutants. Would prefer for him not to go there at all but writers are obsessed with shoehorning Storm in BP books while T'Challa's appearance in X books is scarce in comparison and involve having him look bad mostly. If the X-Men have to get involved I'd prefer it be someone else.



    After more than 50 years we barely know anything about Wakandan culture outside of tribal politics. The new gods Coates added served no purpose in the end other than to uplift and replace them with Storm and Zenzi. Either in a side book or part of an issue it'd be cool to see what the major sports in Wakanda are. Do they have basketball, football, boxing, UFC, etc or something unique? Do they have celebrities? Popular movies and shows?
    The good thing about the gods Coates introduced is they never spoke so Ridley has free reign to do his own thing with them rather than follow continuity and just copy what came before. And as we saw in KIB, those aren’t the only gods relevant in Wakandan culture.

    Down the road I’d be excited to see T’Challa explore his relationship with the Orisha (that’s such a stupid ass name for the Wakandan pantheon and should probably be changed. The Yorubaization of Wakandan culture is every bit as bad as writers like Hickman making it look like a lost Egyptian colony.)

  7. #13762
    On a Mission… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    So basically it a palace for the literary types to be free of any sort of contrants of actually telling a story and moving the plot from A to Z. It casually strolls down a windy road and stops to take in the scene, making a 1 hour drive last 4 hours and along the way they potentially get lost as they decide to take a different turn instead of the intended, but this is supposed to be the beauty of the drive, and not the destination... Despite the fact that the kids in the car are tired, hungry, and ready to get out and go wherever they were going on the first place?

    In brief, yes.

    It's pretty clear that Coates was part of that tradition (the whole "Rootsong" scene, for example). He just wasn't very GOOD at it.

  8. #13763
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    I currently can't think of a reason for him to go to Sol unless he has a spy among them or if the villains are mutants. Would prefer for him not to go there at all but writers are obsessed with shoehorning Storm in BP books while T'Challa's appearance in X books is scarce in comparison and involve having him look bad mostly. If the X-Men have to get involved I'd prefer it be someone else.



    After more than 50 years we barely know anything about Wakandan culture outside of tribal politics. The new gods Coates added served no purpose in the end other than to uplift and replace them with Storm and Zenzi. Either in a side book or part of an issue it'd be cool to see what the major sports in Wakanda are. Do they have basketball, football, boxing, UFC, etc or something unique? Do they have celebrities? Popular movies and shows?
    Honestly the slice of life can easily be done throughout an arc, in the quiet moments, have T'Challa strolling through The golden city while talking with someone while in the background we see Wakanda bustling, have T'Challa sitting in a Wakandan stadium VIP section while they are playing vibranium ball or something.it would be easy to do while having the plot continue, say he is discussing matters or even just having a character development moment while we get little snippets. I think writers sometimes think we have to have a full issue or arc dedicated to Wakandan daily life and that's NOT the case at all. Hell Hudlin probably did it the best regarding those moment's of slice of life. Unfortunately most of it wasn't set in Wakanda but he had plenty of those when T'Challa and Storm were married.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    Writers treat her as someone that can do no wrong and if she does it's someone else's fault. Everything that failed in their marriage is his fault and that they needed to get counseling because of him. Wakandans love her more than they do T'Challa. Under Coates I don't think a single Wakandan called her out on anything, only praised her and call her a goddess.
    Yeah, I would be personally cool if this is the fallout moment where Ridley had T'Challa tell Storm off then walk away completely. She needs to be called out for her bullisht. It's so old and it's constant too. All the time, even in that legends series when they first met, it's like people CAN'T help themselves but have her isht talk him. This time he needs to be done and tell her off, of she throws the marriage in his face remind her WHO attacked his nation, WHO threw away her ring, WHO weren't there when the people needed her when she was Queen, and WHO stole from his nation in recent years if the paranoid accusation gets mentioned. Ridley would have my Ultimate respect if he does issue 200 right

  9. #13764
    Invincible Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    The good thing about the gods Coates introduced is they never spoke so Ridley has free reign to do his own thing with them rather than follow continuity and just copy what came before. And as we saw in KIB, those aren’t the only gods relevant in Wakandan culture.

    Down the road I’d be excited to see T’Challa explore his relationship with the Orisha (that’s such a stupid ass name for the Wakandan pantheon and should probably be changed. The Yorubaization of Wakandan culture is every bit as bad as writers like Hickman making it look like a lost Egyptian colony.)
    The semi good thing about Coates entire run is that everything he did was vague and empty. There is no substance and no detail to anything despite all the words.

    Parliament? We know nothign about it and it was straight up ignored after it was introduced.

    Orisha? Only Bast ever did anything and nothing was every really solved between Bast and T'challa.

    Zenzi and Tetu had little to no characterization other than a cool design. It is a shame he killed them off in the end because future writer coudl have used them.

    Akili was basically just a name. Ditto with Hodari.

    Space Empire is about as empty as you can get.

    Storm and T'chalal were never solidified one way or another.

    All the time wasted with the midnight angels seemingly had them re-integrated into the Doras.

    the whole thing is a blank page that can be molded anywya a new writer wants. Or completely ignored if they want (just like Coates did). Ridley is obviously bringing in the parliament and the empire to some extent, so we will see if his ideas can actually amount to something exciting. Oh and he already gave Akili more depth in 2 pages than Coates did in 5 years lol.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

    T'challa's Greatest Comic Book Feats: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.c...her-feats.html

  10. #13765
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    You can be progressive without it coming off as hamfisted. The problem is that very few people know how to do it so they pull isht like Coates and do they very same thing they say they have issues with but in reverse.
    Exactly, that's why I'd rather they not base their stories on it unless they can write a semi-decent rendition of it.Because it has the opposite effect of what's intended



    I can see her doing some shot like that. My hope? Ridley has T'Challa counter by mentioning all the shit she had done over the years. PLEASE someone throw that shit back in her face! "this is why the marriage would never work with you T'challa! You are a paranoid asshole!" with T'Challa retorting with "You recently came to Wakanda when I was absent, asked for our help, my family welcomed you in good faith, and you broke into a Wakandan facility, assaulted MY people including me sister, and stole Ancient Wakandan artifact. I may appear paranoid because people have proven time and time again that they can't be trusted when it comes to dealings with my nation."

    Oooooh man something like that would be so smooth, I wish someone would have him call out her hypocrisy
    Yes please

  11. #13766
    Astonishing Member BlkGldBlu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    Writers treat her as someone that can do no wrong and if she does it's someone else's fault. Everything that failed in their marriage is his fault and that they needed to get counseling because of him. Wakandans love her more than they do T'Challa. Under Coates I don't think a single Wakandan called her out on anything, only praised her and call her a goddess.

    This is tire. Very honestly I do not want Tchalla or Wakanda to appear in the xbooks . They don't seem have anyone interest but their own.
    Seeing how Wakanda is human lead nation , Wakanda could be represented in the wrong light or the X-Men getting one ups and feats over Wakanda which should never be the case.
    As for Storm.
    The whole PF Namor was a legit reason for Tchalla to end the marriage, but still should have been able to maintain their relationship.
    But as for the marriage I don't see either at fault.
    Very hoestly Im waiting for the backstory to come out the real reason for the split is because on top of everything, Ororo Tchalla lost a fetus due to Storm wouldn't leave her mutant work behind due to guilt she wasn't around enough for the xmen, and through an X-battle lost the baby she didn't even know she was carrying.
    Last edited by BlkGldBlu; 11-26-2021 at 12:22 PM.

  12. #13767
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    Lmao does he think this is a positive?
    Yes...

    Look at what was PRAISED-
    writer John Ridley (screenwriter to the masterful 12 Years a Slave; writer of the ambitious The Other History of the DC Universe and the more banal I Am Batman)
    So writing about a black slave is masterful.
    History of a DC Universe-that saw more than one black character not bow down and worship Superman, Batman or Teen Titans.
    Jace Fox being Batman while Bruce is on the run is boring. Would he think of that about Sam Wilson or Rhodey who did the same thing when America needed Iron Man & CA?

    Coates’ T’Challa deferred to those wiser than him, many of whom were female (Romonda, Shuri, Storm, even the manifestation of the goddess Bast).
    So to see T’Challa so disrespectfully dismissive to a woman in power
    Would the writer say that about Doom and his Kingdom? Darkseid? Aquaman? Namor? Reed Richards? Tony Stark? Logan?
    How many women have Batman talked to any which way? Including the mother of his child?
    What about Amanda Waller who writes the book on talking to folks any which way.

    Also why the hell would anyone want to read a book where the main character is a depressed idiot who can’t do anything without other characters needing to spoon feed him the solution?
    Because at other times it has been done to characters (despite complaints) based on who the writer was-see Green Lantern John Stewart 1995-2020. Crippled, blown up planet, women using him and dumping him and someone coming to save him.

    Heck toss in Cyborg as well.

  13. #13768
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Yes...

    Look at what was PRAISED-


    So writing about a black slave is masterful.
    History of a DC Universe-that saw more than one black character not bow down and worship Superman, Batman or Teen Titans.
    Jace Fox being Batman while Bruce is on the run is boring. Would he think of that about Sam Wilson or Rhodey who did the same thing when America needed Iron Man & CA?



    Would the writer say that about Doom and his Kingdom? Darkseid? Aquaman? Namor? Reed Richards? Tony Stark? Logan?
    How many women have Batman talked to any which way? Including the mother of his child?
    What about Amanda Waller who writes the book on talking to folks any which way.



    Because at other times it has been done to characters (despite complaints) based on who the writer was-see Green Lantern John Stewart 1995-2020. Crippled, blown up planet, women using him and dumping him and someone coming to save him.

    Heck toss in Cyborg as well.
    Good points there. I can buy the writer of that piece having some gripes about T'Challa's characterization under Ridley's pen, but that other stuff is pretty dubious, to say the least.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #13769
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    I loved the politic discussion with Shuri - I need more of that in BP book.
    "What you call Destiny is just an equation, a product of variables" - Uatu

  15. #13770
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post

    Would the writer say that about Doom and his Kingdom? Darkseid? Aquaman? Namor? Reed Richards? Tony Stark? Logan?
    Probably, yes.

    How many women have Batman talked to any which way? Including the mother of his child?
    The author probably wouldn't like him for that either.

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