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  1. #4096

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    This is what you get when you hire writers who are fans of one run or another.

    They feel like they have to tell their version of BP vs Klaw/Killmonger, or Daredevil vs Kingpin, or the FF vs Doom, etc...

    Add in the fact there are at least three good reasons not to create new IP, and we end up dancing the same dance, over and over.

  2. #4097
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    At least some newer villains should be built up for the newer heroes

  3. #4098
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I agree they need to build villains outside of those. frankly I always thought it was short-sighted of Marvel to give one hero most of the main villains. Spidey mainly lives in New York, so why does he need three arch-nemeses?

    I just feel a hero isn't any less because they lack villains
    The majority of Marvel heroes are either in NYC or on the Avengers, so it’s expected they’ll share some villains. No one bats an eye when Spidey and Daredevil both tangle with Mayor Fisk for example. But T’Challa is in a different position. Unlike the rest of Marvel heroes he doesn’t primarily operate in NYC. He’s not strapped for resources either, he’s got an entire nation at his disposal. So villains like Rhino or whatever just don’t pose the same challenge to him that they do to most other heroes. T’Challa needs more villains that aren’t just a threat to him personally but a threat to Wakanda. Note that this doesn’t mean being capable of actually invading Wakanda, I have something else in mind. T’Challa supposedly has started to have Wakanda do outreach to other nations: Let’s see that. Let’s see Wakanda’s outreach and let’s see the pushback against said outreach. Similar to how most nations haven’t tried to invade Krakoa yet but have attempted to sabotage mutant interests around the world.

    That way you can showcase other Rogues as threats to T’Challa or Wakanda without having them constantly burning the country to the ground.
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  4. #4099
    Mighty Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Tchalla does have the different tribes to pull from. Villains could come from or even rule the other tribes making them a credible threat to Tchalla through either force or destabilization.
    Achebe has loads of potential but never gets reused.
    Madam Slay does too.
    Mbaku klaw and killmonger are already there as different types of credible threats. Tchalla doesnt need New York to bulid up spiderman level villains. He just needs a competent writer and editorial

  5. #4100
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    This is what you get when you hire writers who are fans of one run or another.

    They feel like they have to tell their version of BP vs Klaw/Killmonger, or Daredevil vs Kingpin, or the FF vs Doom, etc...

    Add in the fact there are at least three good reasons not to create new IP, and we end up dancing the same dance, over and over.
    Pretty much, villains exist in this space where they should be used consistently if theyíre gonna catch on but when they do get used there needs to be something new to do or say with them. Otherwise they end up becoming one note jokes that make the audience go ďReally, this guy again?Ē. Klawís at that point where heís been disrespected for so long Iím fine letting him rest for a few years until a writer comes along with a unique direction and story in mind, instead of just using him because other writers did.

    Though, youíll notice that some of the best villains basically become an extension of the heroís supporting cast and sometimes that goes a long way in making them compelling, viable threats long term. Kingpin in Daredevil and Doom with the FF are good examples of that actually. Having a villain that grows and changes parallel to the hero or that at times can even act as an ally is far from the worst thing that can happen to them, thatís basically what they seem to be doing with MCU MíBaku and thatís a far better use for the character than the comics have come up with in decades. Coates tried to do something similar with Zenzi and Tetu and while he mostly failed to make them compelling, keeping them alive and present does make them viable characters for future writers to build on.

  6. #4101
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Tchalla does have the different tribes to pull from. Villains could come from or even rule the other tribes making them a credible threat to Tchalla through either force or destabilization.
    Achebe has loads of potential but never gets reused.
    Madam Slay does too.
    Mbaku klaw and killmonger are already there as different types of credible threats. Tchalla doesnt need New York to bulid up spiderman level villains. He just needs a competent writer and editorial
    I agree, I just want to take a break from “T’Challa’s throne is threatened” plotlines, invasions of Wakanda, or internal Wakanda strife for a bit. I’d like to see how Wakanda is impacting the outside world since they’ve opened up a bit, show some of the positives of T’Challa’s choices. If you had T’Challa helping other African nations develop, well that’s an easy way to revamp the Supermacists. They’re neocolonialists working on behalf of international megacorps that want to drain Africa’s resources without doing anything for the countries they operate in. T’Challa using Wakanda resources is attempting to help build up infrastructure in other nations which poses a threat to these megacorps profit margins. They hire the Supermacists to attack these efforts without being directly involved themselves. Stuff like that is what I’d like to see.

    So the Supermacists would be attacking T’Challa’s interests abroad without marching into Wakanda and torching the Golden City like we’ve seen far too often in recent times.
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  7. #4102
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    Well, for some years he operated outside of Wakanda, so maybe they can draw from that. Idk if every villain needs to be directly related to Wakanda. Alternatively, they can revamp an existing "general Avengers villain" to take on BP.

    I can see how it can be hard to make the villains occur frequently enough without being repetitious. Yet somehow Spider-Man did it with about 10 different villains. I don't see why BP or other heroes can't get the same chance

  8. #4103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    The majority of Marvel heroes are either in NYC or on the Avengers, so it’s expected they’ll share some villains. No one bats an eye when Spidey and Daredevil both tangle with Mayor Fisk for example. But T’Challa is in a different position. Unlike the rest of Marvel heroes he doesn’t primarily operate in NYC. He’s not strapped for resources either, he’s got an entire nation at his disposal. So villains like Rhino or whatever just don’t pose the same challenge to him that they do to most other heroes. T’Challa needs more villains that aren’t just a threat to him personally but a threat to Wakanda. Note that this doesn’t mean being capable of actually invading Wakanda, I have something else in mind. T’Challa supposedly has started to have Wakanda do outreach to other nations: Let’s see that. Let’s see Wakanda’s outreach and let’s see the pushback against said outreach. Similar to how most nations haven’t tried to invade Krakoa yet but have attempted to sabotage mutant interests around the world.

    That way you can showcase other Rogues as threats to T’Challa or Wakanda without having them constantly burning the country to the ground.
    Some writers explored this to one degree or another, mostly Priest and Hudlin. The MCU built on that foundation and now it’s up to the comics again to take the idea of Wakandan leadership on the world stage even further. To me, the crux of a modern BP book should be based around T’Challa leading a civilization in transition. Wakanda existed for millennia independent of the outside world and in a single decade they’ve been catapulted to the forefront of global economics and security.

    T’Challa, a visionary who sees the pragmatic and moral value in Wakanda as a world power, needs to juggle the threats both domestic and external that want to take advantage of and/or prevent this geopolitical integration. That’s means the best and most effective BP villains won’t be mere mercenaries and rebels, there’s gotta be a sense of scale to what T’Challa’s ideals and policies mean for the Marvel Universe. We need more corrupt charities and tech firms, weapons manufacturers, criminal empires and rival chieftains, etc. I agree 100% that invasion stories and internal strife simply aren’t enough and need to be retired for a few years right along with Klaw. Wakanda as a superpower and the industrial espionage, cultural shifts, and moral quandaries that creates for T’Challa needs to be highlighted more.

  9. #4104
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Some writers explored this to one degree or another, mostly Priest and Hudlin. The MCU built on that foundation and now itís up to the comics again to take the idea of Wakandan leadership on the world stage even further. To me, the crux of a modern BP book should be based around TíChalla leading a civilization in transition. Wakanda existed for millennia independent of the outside world and in a single decade theyíve been catapulted to the forefront of global economics and security.

    TíChalla, a visionary who sees the pragmatic and moral value in Wakanda as a world power, needs to juggle the threats both domestic and external that want to take advantage of and/or prevent this geopolitical integration. Thatís means the best and most effective BP villains wonít be mere mercenaries and rebels, thereís gotta be a sense of scale to what TíChallaís ideals and policies mean for the Marvel Universe. We need more corrupt charities and tech firms, weapons manufacturers, criminal empires and rival chieftains, etc. I agree 100% that invasion stories and internal strife simply arenít enough and need to be retired for a few years right along with Klaw. Wakanda as a superpower and the industrial espionage, cultural shifts, and moral quandaries that creates for TíChalla needs to be highlighted more.
    You summed up what I was trying to say perfectly, yes exactly. And if a writer does eventually want to focus on Wakanda internally this setup still allows it. Just like how Americans have been mixed about Americaís role as world leader after WWII, some Wakandans are never really going to get on board with TíChallaís decision to make Wakanda a superpower on the world stage rather than staying isolationist. Eventually you can go back to exploring what other tribes think of his choices, maybe eventually have them challenge him, but for at least the next two years letís put a break on challenges to the throne and see TíChalla and Wakanda shaping the world and his Rogues pushing back.
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  10. #4105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    You summed up what I was trying to say perfectly, yes exactly. And if a writer does eventually want to focus on Wakanda internally this setup still allows it. Just like how Americans have been mixed about Americaís role as world leader after WWII, some Wakandans are never really going to get on board with TíChallaís decision to make Wakanda a superpower on the world stage rather than staying isolationist. Eventually you can go back to exploring what other tribes think of his choices, maybe eventually have them challenge him, but for at least the next two years letís put a break on challenges to the throne and see TíChalla and Wakanda shaping the world and his Rogues pushing back.
    Yup thereís room for a lot of nuance. I mean Americaís not nearly in the same place it was culturally and politically a decade ago, and TíChallaís reign is sure to have brought about some huge changes to the Wakandan worldview. Heís allowed in refugees (Priest), worked with a bunch of security organizations like Alpha Flight and the Ultimates, expanded Wakandan aid to the outside world (Hudlin), and more. There are probably a handful of trusted corporations like (Stark and Rand Industries) that employ people in the cities, maybe thereís a growing ecotourism industry, Wakanda is Meiji Japan or Imperial Ethiopia. In the midst of an earth-shattering shift away from millennia of traditions. The difference is they have far greater capabilities to deal with the effects of that since theyíre led by TíChalla.

    I imagine the attitudes of Wakanda wouldnít be that far off from the political divisions you see in Elder Scrollsí Hammerfell, which coincidently is another fictional black civilization defined by its isolationism and warrior spirit. They have the Crowns and the Forebears, one faction champions the old ways and traditional values while the other is more cosmopolitan. Itís not a binary though, some Crowns are good, some Forebears are bad, motivations within these factions vary as well. Even if a writer didnít want to do another ďxenophobic Wakandans rebel against their progressive kingĒ story, why not explore the Wakandans who have malicious motives for supporting Wakandaís outreach? Maybe some tribes decide to proselytize and use the worship of foreigners to summon an evil dead god on Wakandan soil? What about tribes that are illegally selling technology to outsiders and using the money to swindle farmland from smaller tribes? I want a BP book that handles the intersection between rapidly changing Wakandan politics/culture and the geopolitical implications of Wakanda as a world leader. Thereís an endless number of directions for a writer to go in while creating interesting new threats for TíChalla and his friends.

  11. #4106
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Klaw was completely wasted in the MCU. They couldíve had some C-list villain be one of his subordinates that TíChalla was trying to track down and saved Klaw himself for a sequel inspired by WiTBP. Or he couldíve at least survived the first film and be brought back in the future. Maybe they revive him though, but I doubt it.
    Yeah he should not of been killed, or at the very least he should of died on a way that allowed for him to come back as pure sound

  12. #4107
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    I don't think he was wasted.

    Without klaw, W'kabi doesn't turn.

    Without klaw, Ross isn't brought to Wakanda.

    Ud have to move the whole story around if you take out klaw.

    Easy fix would be Killmonger taking in Klaw alive, he ends up in prison. you can have him bust out again and turn into sound ina future movie if you really wanted

    but he kinda tied together the plot in the movie, kinda need him
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  13. #4108
    Extraordinary Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Pretty much, villains exist in this space where they should be used consistently if they’re gonna catch on but when they do get used there needs to be something new to do or say with them. Otherwise they end up becoming one note jokes that make the audience go “Really, this guy again?”. Klaw’s at that point where he’s been disrespected for so long I’m fine letting him rest for a few years until a writer comes along with a unique direction and story in mind, instead of just using him because other writers did.

    Though, you’ll notice that some of the best villains basically become an extension of the hero’s supporting cast and sometimes that goes a long way in making them compelling, viable threats long term. Kingpin in Daredevil and Doom with the FF are good examples of that actually. Having a villain that grows and changes parallel to the hero or that at times can even act as an ally is far from the worst thing that can happen to them, that’s basically what they seem to be doing with MCU M’Baku and that’s a far better use for the character than the comics have come up with in decades. Coates tried to do something similar with Zenzi and Tetu and while he mostly failed to make them compelling, keeping them alive and present does make them viable characters for future writers to build on.
    I know I have mentioned it before, but growing the villain was an idea for a for a BP story, essentially a story where T'Challa and Erik are taken and similar to Hudlins little green men, they are forced to work together in an intergalactic exhibition gladiator style, where they are paired and representatives for earth, the losing teams not only love their lives, but their planets as well.

    They have to work together and show why they are the deadliest warriors of Wakanda, all the while we get them sitting and actually talking to each other, we find out more about kilmongers hatred towards T'Challa and why he blames him for his life despite knowing it's not T'Challas fault

  14. #4109
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I don't think he was wasted.

    Without klaw, W'kabi doesn't turn.

    Without klaw, Ross isn't brought to Wakanda.

    Ud have to move the whole story around if you take out klaw.

    Easy fix would be Killmonger taking in Klaw alive, he ends up in prison. you can have him bust out again and turn into sound ina future movie if you really wanted

    but he kinda tied together the plot in the movie, kinda need him
    I see what you mean. But IMO Klaw was more entertaining than Killmonger, who came off as a phase 1 villain to me. Plus those plot points could've still happened another way. Idk why T'Challa even struggled against Erik in the waterfall area tbh when he's shown to easily defeat Klaw.

  15. #4110
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I see what you mean. But IMO Klaw was more entertaining than Killmonger, who came off as a phase 1 villain to me. Plus those plot points could've still happened another way. Idk why T'Challa even struggled against Erik in the waterfall area tbh when he's shown to easily defeat Klaw.
    Because hes wearing a Vb suit and Klaw is not a fighter.

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