T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2021

[Pulp Fiction]

If he gets debuffed in one area, they should buff him more in another area. Talking about tactical intelligence like he ain't already have that. That's just subtraction

[MouserGrey]

Pretty much, yeah. Let Shuri have her lab. T'Challa is ore hands-on.

(I really should watch BPQ one of these days...)

Dude? Really?

[MindofShadow]

Tech is always gonna be a part of the mythos. Without the intelligence, he's gonna be the one (for the benefit of readers) other characters explain the science stuff to. If you're cool with that, then cool. I however am gonna be thinking he should already know it.

This has never happened in the comics.

There is a difference to discussing somethign vs creating a boogeyman that doesn't exist.

[Blind Wedjat]

Tech is always gonna be a part of the mythos. Without the intelligence, he's gonna be the one (for the benefit of readers) other characters explain the science stuff to. If you're cool with that, then cool. I however am gonna be thinking he should already know it.

Tech has been a part of the mythos because Wakanda is the most technologically advanced country in the Marvel Universe, not because T'Challa is the most technologically advanced superhero in the Marvel Universe (usually reserved for Tony Stark). That's kind of my point, because T'Challa will always play second fiddle to characters like Tony, Reed and Pym because they're far better suited for that niche than he is. But none of them rule an entire nation. None of them have to fight wars or navigate political tensions on a tribal and global scale. How T'Challa strategically maneuvers these is what makes him stand above the rest and what makes him interesting.

At least in my opinion.

[Pulp Fiction]

I thought we were discussing a hypothetical.

The hypothetical scenario were the inventive intelligence is dropped...

- hypothetical is brought up

- hypothical is discussed

- discussion is critiqued for being hypothetical

I'm lost

[Pulp Fiction]

When you put it like that, I actually agree wedjet. He's never gonna have focus put on it like Pym, Reed and Tony that's true.

It has always felt like a secondary trait when compared to his peers. You've turned me around on it tbh. When you read someone else say it, it really puts things into perspective.

Shuri can have the Lab. As she is now, she can do more with it than T'challa could.

[Ezyo1000]

What can I say... I don't watch a lot of TV (or streaming).

It's good, I think it's what your looking for in T'Challa for sure. I implore you, if you don't watch anything else, watch BPQ

I really hate to be having this discussion again, but my view has always been that because T'Challa doesn't really have any landmark inventions or inventions that are referenced or used in other stories and by other characters outside of own, I am more than fine with that part of his intelligence being deemphasized in favour of other people like Shuri having that kind of role. I'm not saying definitively that I would hate it if he was more of an inventor, but that it just hasn't led into anything truly special or comparable to his peers. Evan Narcisse kept going on and on about how the MCU didn't show T'Challa to be an inventor, only for his version both in his comic and in the game to be an almost exact copy, with his comic version being more liberal, and his game version being weirdly traditional and conservative. I said this before and when the expansion came out and looks like I was right all along.

I still maintain that Shuri has been made a better character by the MCU. The problem is that Marvel comics in their complete lack of creativity are trying so hard to merge the MCU version with comic history, and it's not really working because they're on different sides of the spectrum. Redjack is probably the only one who got it right, and he still borrowed a lot from the MCU version.

I don't believe the film did T'Challa dirty at all by not showing his inventive genius. Personally I'm tired of seeing that opinion being thrown around ad nauseam. The constant cycle of negativity is why I don't come here often but I'm also aware I can't convince anyone otherwise, so it's fine. What is considered comic accurate differs from fan to fan so it's almost a pointless argument.

I mean, this goes again what I said to Digi a few posts ago, people are mistaking "T'Challas scientific genius was sidelined" as we want Coates "I am a scientist at heart" and seeing him tinker in a lab.

The perfect example that the MCU could of shown of T'Challas super genius and directed it into how his tactical mind works is when Shuri and Ross are in the lab. Shuri explains how the vibranium is made inert to transport and she gives credit to T'Challa figuring out how to do that. Because 1 it doesn't make sense that 16 year old Shuri figured out how to do it and no one else. 2 T'Challa actually figured it out in the comics. 3 it literally would not of hurt Shuris intelligence to give T'Challa the credit and establish his genius securely.

So when that transfers to the mine fight he utilizes his own creation against Shuris new designed habit. Simple everyone is a genius, Shuri still keeps her lane and T'Challa doesn't lose anything to another character.

The problem with comic T'Challa is he had things, he designed the quinjet, he designed falcon's wings, and he created the nowhere room and the techno jungle AND he advanced Wakanda to where it is today until Hudlins retcon.. those are all clear signs of his technical prowess. Just because other writer's failed to follow up or try and give those to other characters doesn't mean T'Challa isn't that kind of genius.

To be honest, I respectfully disagree that MCU made Shuri a better character. By the time the movie came out Shuri was already established as a character of her own in the comics personality wise. The problem is that the MCU added Okoye and Nakia in as well and those characters are basically OCS and then the changes made to Shuri turned her onto an OC as well. The griot angle, even though it wasn't done well on practice, would of been a better route for Shuri as it wouldn't of required to take something from T'Challa.

Again no one is saying T'Challa should of been tinkering In a lab. That NOT what he does. However, the film did downplay his super genius and his progressive characteristics in favor of his supporting cast. Both of which are so vastly different from their comic counterpart that they are OCs and that's a legit complaint. But the general consensus is that they wanted to SEE T'Challas genius in action, and there were multiple ways to show that without having him in a lab.

[Ezyo1000]

Tech has been a part of the mythos because Wakanda is the most technologically advanced country in the Marvel Universe, not because T'Challa is the most technologically advanced superhero in the Marvel Universe (usually reserved for Tony Stark). That's kind of my point, because T'Challa will always play second fiddle to characters like Tony, Reed and Pym because they're far better suited for that niche than he is. But none of them rule an entire nation. None of them have to fight wars or navigate political tensions on a tribal and global scale. How T'Challa strategically maneuvers these is what makes him stand above the rest and what makes him interesting.

At least in my opinion.

I usually would agree... In the past. However, since Priest and especially Hudlins contributions to T'Challas World stager involvement on the 616, writers have had T'Challa not just playing second fiddle to those heroes but actively working with those heroes. Especially been a bigger focus since Hickmans time runs out, Ewings Ultimates, Empyre, JS Avengers, avengers mech strike, tech on avengers, totally awesome hulk, etc etc. Basically since Hickmans run his technical prowess had been on full display. Not just with other characters but own his own.

Basically T'Challa is a jack of all trades type of character he has the tech, science, h2h, strategic mind, the political prowess, and the ultimate poker face all backed by him ruling the most technological and powerful nation earth.

He is way more complex than just Black Captain America, which unfortunately is kinda how he has been portrayed in the MCU because he won't be Recast to develop his character arc to it's full potential. But what really makes this a difficult thing to process is that the MCU version is slowly bleeding into other mediums and an oversimplification of T'Challa is a legit concern as more time goes one with him NOT being in the MCU and Shuri taking the driver seat for the biggest medium for casuals and marvel continuous push to synergize the MCU to the 616.

[DigiCom]

There is a trope that I think may apply here: Informed Attribute.

There are several scenes in comics, going all the way back to FF #52, where we are TOLD that T'Challa is a genius inventor: The techno-jungle, Quinjet, and Sam's wings are all credited to him. But I honestly can't think of a major case where we are SHOWN him inventing something. It always seems to happen offscreen.

This is in contrast to folks like Richards, Stark, Pym, and Brashear, where their technical prowess is usually displayed on panel, often in place of their actual superhuman abilities.

This is why I don't consider it a big loss... sure T'Challa loses a "feat" (something I've never really worried about, as you know) but in terms of his actual character, little of note is actually lost. He's still the most dangerous man alive, the world's greatest poker face, and a consummate strategist & tactician (two very different skill sets, actually).

But what do I know... I've only been reading about the guy for 23 years.

[chief12d]

Didn’t we see T’Challa make his own improvements to his suit in the Coates run? And I’m 99% sure we saw him work on making those life boat things during Time Runs Out. And when he reworked Doom’s spying tech. T’Challa being a genius is a well established part of his identity from his inception. There’s nothing wrong with that being Shuri’s thing (because frankly she’s never worked as a character unless she was a lab rat or mystic) but to completely sideline and downplay that element of the character is an insult to what is conceptually supposed to be a polymath character.

Shuri can handle the engineering, the big tech stuff, etc. but T’Challa should be shown as technologically proficient and getting minor showings of his scientific intelligence. That’s not unreasonable and it has been done before, as we saw with Redjack. The idea that it has to be an either or situation and T’Challa has to entirely lose a trait he’s had since his creation doesn’t sit right with me and sends this message that he has to lose his skills so others can shine. How long before people say “T’Challa’s a king, he doesn’t need to lead from the front lines, let Okoye do that”. Because it seems people are just so enamored with the idea of T’Challa “leading” he needs to delegate everything that made him great to side characters.

A polymath warrior-priest king should be treated like a polymath warrior-priest king. He doesn’t need to be the best at everything (except fighting, strategy, and tactics) but he should be shown as competent and capable. Shoehorning Shuri into any scene where T’Challa is doing anything remotely scientific and basically denying him any chance to get a solo tech feat reveals a profound insecurity about Shuri’s place in the mythos and gives the impression T’Challa needs to be diminished so her and other characters can shine. Which is a terrible dynamic to promote between the lead of an IP and legacies.

You don’t see that happening with other franchises and when it does people call it out. Tim being the smartest Bat-character has never prevented Bruce from being a fantastic detective. Barbara being the most tech-savvy doesn’t mean Bruce can’t hack things by himself even if he does defer to her on many occasions. Shuri being a better inventor shouldn’t mean T’Challa can’t be shown explaining scientific concepts or inventing his own things on the fly as part of his plans.

[chief12d]

More talk about what T'challa should be in the comics, the more i realize Ewing nailed the dude 100% between Ultimates and then Event Appearances.

Too bad Ultimates was a slog to read too often.

I’ve been telling y’all Ewing writes BP better than anyone else save Redjack lol. He writes literally every character better than the majority of writers, especially black characters. He’s been carrying good representation for black characters on his back for the last few years IMO.

He understands what people want out of BP and respects what came before while giving space to new ideas and concepts. The only issue his Ultimates had was being a bit slow, which is a subjective take I only see in this thread because everyone else considers it one of the best team comics published by Marvel in the last decade. He showed a T’Challa that was equal parts king, strategist, scientist, and warrior while alongside characters even smarter than Shuri and who have leadership skills equivalent to his own. Ridley will have no excuse if he can’t do the same in T’Challa’s own title.

Same goes for Narcisse, who wrote a good BP in the Avengers game but missed some things about the character. Though with Narcisse my issue had more to do with T’Challa’s weird sense of conservatism and him “delegating” rule of his kingdom. Same issue I had with Redjack’s cartoon as well.

[MindofShadow]

Didn’t we see T’Challa make his own improvements to his suit in the Coates run? And I’m 99% sure we saw him work on making those life boat things during Time Runs Out. And when he reworked Doom’s spying tech. .

Life boats was similar to what Digi is talking about... it was done off panel and Reed gave T'chalal credit for it on panel.

Yes, he worked on Doom's spy gear thing but Coates leaned into T'challa the scientist so it makes since.


T'challa the inventor is kinda interesting comic history wise. You had Kirby mention stuff (off panel again) that he did. And then there was not really a large part of his character for a long time. Just mentinos here and there (wings, quinjet and the like) but he wasn't really shown on panel to building stuff until like... Doom War. Then that transitioned into Liss building gadgets in hells kitchen then Hickman ran with the concept more hardcore and more apparent and it kinda cascaded a bit from there.

[MindofShadow]

He understands what people want out of BP and respects what came before while giving space to new ideas and concepts. The only issue his Ultimates had was being a bit slow, which is a subjective take I only see in this thread because everyone else considers it one of the best team comics published by Marvel in the last decade.

I can't remember if you were in here when it was coming out week to week but it was PAINFULLY slow at itmes. Wait a whoel month and get a whole issue of Blue Marvel long soliloquies lol. Or a whole issue of abstract talking heads in space wiht no ultimates. Or that werid government agency thing with no ultimates. .

It was torture at times lol

[chief12d]

Life boats was similar to what Digi is talking about... it was done off panel and Reed gave T'chalal credit for it on panel.

Yes, he worked on Doom's spy gear thing but Coates leaned into T'challa the scientist so it makes since.


T'challa the inventor is kinda interesting comic history wise. You had Kirby mention stuff (off panel again) that he did. And then there was not really a large part of his character for a long time. Just mentinos here and there (wings, quinjet and the like) but he wasn't really shown on panel to building stuff until like... Doom War. Then that transitioned into Liss building gadgets in hells kitchen then Hickman ran with the concept more hardcore and more apparent and it kinda cascaded a bit from there.

I coulda sworn we saw him working on the life boats on panel. Maybe he was just inspecting them or something lol.

But the point still stands, invention isn’t T’Challa’s main characteristic but it nonetheless is a major part of how he was not only introduced but presented in various eras. It not unreasonable at all to expect a bare minimum of scientific showings from the character that’s aren’t reliant on his little sister. If Shuri can be shown as a warrior, mystic, and inventor idk why T’Challa can’t be shown as two of those things and more. Guys like Redjack and Ewing showed it could be done and it doesn’t hurt Shuri’s character to not be the only smart person in Wakanda.

I can't remember if you were in here when it was coming out week to week but it was PAINFULLY slow at itmes. Wait a whoel month and get a whole issue of Blue Marvel long soliloquies lol. Or a whole issue of abstract talking heads in space wiht no ultimates. Or that werid government agency thing with no ultimates. .

It was torture at times lol

I think I started posting as it was ending but I don’t remember talking about it much. The book was slow but it pretty much got every aspect of T’Challa as a character right. Certainly better than pretty much any other recent depiction of the character, save Redjack’s cartoon and to a lesser extent Hickman (T’Challa wasn’t an actual king then). Nothing was ignored or downplayed and despite T’Challa being well rounded, a cast of characters more powerful and intelligent than from his own book got to shine too. I’m fine with some Blue Marvel soliloquies and talking heads if it pays off in the end.

[Marvell2100]

David Liss is probably the last BP solo writer who actually incorporated all of T'Challa's skillset albeit on a smaller scale.

-Thinking on the fly.
-Long term strategy.
-Scientific ability.
-Fighting skills.
-His intangibles.

We really haven't seen the complete package since then.