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  1. #5911
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Is Marvel espionage any good though?
    Yea I’d say the Black Widow books they put out have done a great job with espionage so far. X-Force, for all its problems has done decently with the concept as well. Ridley’s handled that genre in the past from my understanding and we’ve seen pieces of that kinda in his Batman book (global adventure and underground operations). An espionage direction for BP has worked miraculously in the past under Priest and more recently in Rise of the Black Panther.

    Ridley going in the espionage direction would be a welcome change from the space fantasy approach Coates took with the character and a return to the character’s modern roots. And even if other Marvel books hadn’t managed espionage well, that doesn’t mean Ridley or whoever succeeds Coates couldn’t. Things in that corner of the Marvel universe aren’t nearly as cohesive as compared to something like Marvel cosmic or the X-line, so a writer has a lot of freedom to explore different espionage-related topics and conflicts.

  2. #5912
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Yea I’d say the Black Widow books they put out have done a great job with espionage so far. X-Force, for all its problems has done decently with the concept as well. Ridley’s handled that genre in the past from my understanding and we’ve seen pieces of that kinda in his Batman book (global adventure and underground operations). An espionage direction for BP has worked miraculously in the past under Priest and more recently in Rise of the Black Panther.

    Ridley going in the espionage direction would be a welcome change from the space fantasy approach Coates took with the character and a return to the character’s modern roots. And even if other Marvel books hadn’t managed espionage well, that doesn’t mean Ridley or whoever succeeds Coates couldn’t. Things in that corner of the Marvel universe aren’t nearly as cohesive as compared to something like Marvel cosmic or the X-line, so a writer has a lot of freedom to explore different espionage-related topics and conflicts.
    Maybe I'm just not into espionage in Marvel. Characters like Black Widow and such don't have any espionage powers, just black costumes or whatever. It's a bit meh next to the rest of the MU. Maybe I need to read more of it though.

    As for BP, while I don't like all the changes, I don't really feel going back to whatever he did decades ago is necessarily the best approach. Same with other comic book characters. Just repeating the same kinds of story beats isn't really great progress IMO. The essence of the characters should remain, but I don't really care to see them doing the same kinds of things forever and ever

  3. #5913
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Iím really hoping we get a soft reboot with this new relaunch. The more I think about it I think Ridley is going with a very different approach with TíChalla and that heíll restore a lot of badassery and complexity that the character has been missing. All he has to do is take Aaronís TíChalla, throw in 3-4 side characters, and revamp some villains that can pose a threat.

    I donít need a revolutionary, mythos-defining run. If Ridley or whoever can give me what Captain Marvel and Spider-Man fans are getting (basic, fun stories that respect the character and world) Iíll be more than happy. No more space fantasy shit and democratic rebellions, just straight adventure and espionage lol.
    Well the funny thing is Priest ad Hudlin didn't make mythos defining runs by trying to do so. They literally did what you just said, fun stories, respect the character and world. And those runs became what they are because they wanted to tell good stories and they structured and paced then well. It comes naturally. Not forced

  4. #5914
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Maybe I'm just not into espionage in Marvel. Characters like Black Widow and such don't have any espionage powers, just black costumes or whatever. It's a bit meh next to the rest of the MU. Maybe I need to read more of it though.

    As for BP, while I don't like all the changes, I don't really feel going back to whatever he did decades ago is necessarily the best approach. Same with other comic book characters. Just repeating the same kinds of story beats isn't really great progress IMO. The essence of the characters should remain, but I don't really care to see them doing the same kinds of things forever and ever
    Thatís the point of espionage lol itís not flashy and the characters who engage in that genre tend to not be OP or very quippy. Which is why the Priest take on the character that took TíChallaís mythos and made it into a adventure/spy-like franchise worked so well. Iíd definitely suggest reading that run if you havenít and reading other books like Black Widow and X-Force to get a better feel for that corner. I think youíd be surprised at the complexity and deep character work that gets done there.

    I feel it is the best approach because thatís what has worked and gained the character the fanbase he has. Would it make sense for Green Lantern to all of a sudden be a magic-based book just because theyíve been doing cosmic, space-based stuff for decades? Changing something just to change something and with little substance to follow it doesnít work. Coates took a wrecking ball to established concepts and takes on TíChalla and the world of Wakanda for 6 years. Espionage, like cosmic stuff or magic-based stories are virtually infinite and weíve only scratched the surface of the stories and variations that can take place there. Not everyone needs to have the same approach to the genre that Priest did. Narcisse and Coogler werenít carbon copies, why would Ridley be?

    And thatís not to say a BP book should only be globe trotting spy thriller, thereís plenty of room for mystical stories and things like that, but itís great, arguably necessary for a character to have a focus. TíChalla going from a primarily espionage/spymaster character to a dude who spends all his time in space and dealing with gods is akin to making Doctor Strange all about street level crime. It works for a story or two but that shouldnít be their bread and butter. Characters should have defined cores and modern BP has been about globetrotting spy thriller and should remain that way. Thereís plenty of space to explore how he operates in that field.

  5. #5915
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Yea I’d say the Black Widow books they put out have done a great job with espionage so far. X-Force, for all its problems has done decently with the concept as well. Ridley’s handled that genre in the past from my understanding and we’ve seen pieces of that kinda in his Batman book (global adventure and underground operations). An espionage direction for BP has worked miraculously in the past under Priest and more recently in Rise of the Black Panther.

    Ridley going in the espionage direction would be a welcome change from the space fantasy approach Coates took with the character and a return to the character’s modern roots. And even if other Marvel books hadn’t managed espionage well, that doesn’t mean Ridley or whoever succeeds Coates couldn’t. Things in that corner of the Marvel universe aren’t nearly as cohesive as compared to something like Marvel cosmic or the X-line, so a writer has a lot of freedom to explore different espionage-related topics and conflicts.
    That's the good thing about T'Challa, he literally can fit into just about any story type and it works, from street level all the way up to cosmic adventures and everything in between. That's why, when we see so much of the same stuff it makes me scratch my head. I mean sure at his core, Globetrotting espionage and head of state type stories will be his bread and butter, however, he has so much potential his stories are infinite and make sense to do whatever he wants

  6. #5916
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    That’s the point of espionage lol it’s not flashy and the characters who engage in that genre tend to not be OP or very quippy. Which is why the Priest take on the character that took T’Challa’s mythos and made it into a adventure/spy-like franchise worked so well. I’d definitely suggest reading that run if you haven’t and reading other books like Black Widow and X-Force to get a better feel for that corner. I think you’d be surprised at the complexity and deep character work that gets done there.

    I feel it is the best approach because that’s what has worked and gained the character the fanbase he has. Would it make sense for Green Lantern to all of a sudden be a magic-based book just because they’ve been doing cosmic, space-based stuff for decades? Changing something just to change something and with little substance to follow it doesn’t work. Coates took a wrecking ball to established concepts and takes on T’Challa and the world of Wakanda for 6 years. Espionage, like cosmic stuff or magic-based stories are virtually infinite and we’ve only scratched the surface of the stories and variations that can take place there. Not everyone needs to have the same approach to the genre that Priest did. Narcisse and Coogler weren’t carbon copies, why would Ridley be?

    And that’s not to say a BP book should only be globe trotting spy thriller, there’s plenty of room for mystical stories and things like that, but it’s great, arguably necessary for a character to have a focus. T’Challa going from a primarily espionage/spymaster character to a dude who spends all his time in space and dealing with gods is akin to making Doctor Strange all about street level crime. It works for a story or two but that shouldn’t be their bread and butter. Characters should have defined cores and modern BP has been about globetrotting spy thriller and should remain that way. There’s plenty of space to explore how he operates in that field.
    By powers I mean stuff like invisibility or shapeshifting. Powers which are the opposite of flashy but could actually make interesting espionage storylines in a universe with superpowers. Not just people in suits who are basically Captain America-type heroes.

    I'm not saying the fundamental idea of T'Challa should change. Nor do I like all the additions to Wakanda. But I don't hate all of them either. And I don't think he should just be doing the kinds of things he did before. I don't know how long the series would go if it's mostly based around Wakanda which is also an ideal utopia of sorts and no one ever complains about anything yet T'Challa mostly just does action. That's what I seem to see most here want, but idk if that's even possible. I could totally do without most of the extreme stuff Coates added to the mythos though

  7. #5917
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    By powers I mean stuff like invisibility or shapeshifting. Powers which are the opposite of flashy but could actually make interesting espionage storylines in a universe with superpowers. Not just people in suits who are basically Captain America-type heroes.

    I'm not saying the fundamental idea of T'Challa should change. Nor do I like all the additions to Wakanda. But I don't hate all of them either. And I don't think he should just be doing the kinds of things he did before. I don't know how long the series would go if it's mostly based around Wakanda which is also an ideal utopia of sorts and no one ever complains about anything yet T'Challa mostly just does action. That's what I seem to see most here want, but idk if that's even possible. I could totally do without most of the extreme stuff Coates added to the mythos though
    The problem with Coates is that he injected almost every racial stereotype onto Wakanda as well as Western colonization analogies onto Wakanda, making them hypocrites.

    You can do Wakanda based stories and have it all exclusively on WK. See Panthers rage. The problem is most writers when dealing in Wakanda go for the tired trope of civil unrest or aims of the throne. There are all types of unique stories to tell in a nation the size of new jersey

  8. #5918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    The problem with Coates is that he injected almost every racial stereotype onto Wakanda as well as Western colonization analogies onto Wakanda, making them hypocrites.

    You can do Wakanda based stories and have it all exclusively on WK. See Panthers rage. The problem is most writers when dealing in Wakanda go for the tired trope of civil unrest or aims of the throne. There are all types of unique stories to tell in a nation the size of new jersey
    I'm not really into the fight for the throne stuff always being a story either. I think civil unrest can work if there's good enough reason.

    I'm not sure about which racial stereotypes you're referring to. I didn't like things such as the whole rape camp business, if that's what you're referring to

  9. #5919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    That's the good thing about T'Challa, he literally can fit into just about any story type and it works, from street level all the way up to cosmic adventures and everything in between. That's why, when we see so much of the same stuff it makes me scratch my head. I mean sure at his core, Globetrotting espionage and head of state type stories will be his bread and butter, however, he has so much potential his stories are infinite and make sense to do whatever he wants
    That’s pretty much my thoughts. T’Challa’s modern character is defined by globetrotting espionage adventures that take full advantage of his position as ruler of the most powerful nation on Earth. That is his thing. Stealth, industrial espionage, and geopolitical issues that have a spy thriller component (whether it be a manufactured refugee crisis or vibranium trafficking).

    But because T’Challa is also a top 10 intellect and has the backing of a god, he fits well into numerous other types of stories that reflect those facts. So T’Challa being transported to an evil AU version of an intergalactic Wakanda? Sure. T’Challa dealing with the resurrection of some banished demon on Wakanda soil? I’d love that. But that stuff works only for an arc or two max. Not 30+ issues. This is basic math, no one’s asking for an insanely long space saga from a character known for espionage and martial arts lol. That’s like doing a Batman run where he spends most of his time in Hell and dealing with demons. T’Challa fits in a number of different stories but he needs his bread and butter.
    Last edited by chief12d; 05-16-2021 at 11:23 AM.

  10. #5920
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm not really into the fight for the throne stuff always being a story either. I think civil unrest can work if there's good enough reason.

    I'm not sure about which racial stereotypes you're referring to. I didn't like things such as the whole rape camp business, if that's what you're referring to
    Civil unrest has been played out and is in the same boat as fighting for the throne. It needs to be retired for a few years until a good story is presented.

    Racial stereotypes were the whole rape camp's, the gender inequality (saying isht like the DM were bred by men to be given to other men) T'Challa meeting with known despots and dictators to get advice on how to stop a rebellion "Just to see what they would say". Shuri telling victims of rape and abuse they should of shut up and accepted their fate so the Golden city could continue.

    The originators were apparently the original denizen of Wakanda and early Wakandans came in and drove them out on some Columbus analog of their land in chains this now in S3 Wakanda must pay them reparations. And the whole intergalactic Wakanda being essentially the slave trade analogy. Theres more but that is kinda the main things

  11. #5921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Civil unrest has been played out and is in the same boat as fighting for the throne. It needs to be retired for a few years until a good story is presented.

    Racial stereotypes were the whole rape camp's, the gender inequality (saying isht like the DM were bred by men to be given to other men) T'Challa meeting with known despots and dictators to get advice on how to stop a rebellion "Just to see what they would say". Shuri telling victims of rape and abuse they should of shut up and accepted their fate so the Golden city could continue.

    The originators were apparently the original denizen of Wakanda and early Wakandans came in and drove them out on some Columbus analog of their land in chains this now in S3 Wakanda must pay them reparations. And the whole intergalactic Wakanda being essentially the slave trade analogy. Theres more but that is kinda the main things
    I didn't like most of that stuff either. Shuri really didn't come off great in those issues. As for the originators, I don't think it's impossible the Wakandans rose to power through violence. Societies in those days were violent.

    If Coates wanted to deal with those forms of racism, he could've dealt with them directly in different ways. Idk why he needed those analogies

  12. #5922
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    That’s pretty much my thoughts. T’Challa’s modern character is defined by globetrotting espionage adventures that take full advantage of his position as ruler of the most powerful nation on Earth. That is his thing. Stealth, industrial espionage, and geopolitical issues that have a spy thriller component (whether it be a manufactured refugee crisis or vibranium trafficking).

    But because T’Challa is also a top 10 intellect and has the backing of a god, he fits well into numerous other types of stories that reflect those facts. So T’Challa being transported to an evil AU version of an intergalactic Wakanda? Sure. T’Challa dealing with the resurrection of some banished demon on Wakanda soil? I’d love that. But that stuff works only for an arc or two max. Not 30+ issues. This is basic math, no one’s asking for an insanely long space saga from a character known for espionage and martial arts lol. That’s like doing a Batman run where he spends most of his time in Hell and dealing with demons. T’Challa fits in a number of different stories but he needs his bread and butter.
    Yeah I wouldn't mind even a long story like Coates intergalactic Wakanda, the problem was.. it was boring AF and it was clear Coates didn't have 2+ years work of story. Now if someone has that much story to tell and it's engaging and exciting then ya I'm all for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I didn't like most of that stuff either. Shuri really didn't come off great in those issues. As for the originators, I don't think it's impossible the Wakandans rose to power through violence. Societies in those days were violent.

    If Coates wanted to deal with those forms of racism, he could've dealt with them directly in different ways. Idk why he needed those analogies
    Nah it doesn't make sense because the origin of WK already was they they were there, vibranium crashed there and mutated some of the Wakandans and then bashenga United Wakanda. Costed literally changed it to make them no better than the west, and to elevate Storm

  13. #5923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Yeah I wouldn't mind even a long story like Coates intergalactic Wakanda, the problem was.. it was boring AF and it was clear Coates didn't have 2+ years work of story. Now if someone has that much story to tell and it's engaging and exciting then ya I'm all for it.



    Nah it doesn't make sense because the origin of WK already was they they were there, vibranium crashed there and mutated some of the Wakandans and then bashenga United Wakanda. Costed literally changed it to make them no better than the west, and to elevate Storm
    Idk if they're as bad as Western nations.

  14. #5924
    Ultimate Life Form BlackClaw's Avatar
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    T’Chadwick won at the mtv awards.
    T'Challa
    A.K.A. The Black Panther
    King of Wakanda
    King of the Dead and The Champion of Bast
    Two-Time Time Magazine "Person Of The Year"
    Six-Time People Magazine "Sexiest Man Alive"

  15. #5925
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    T’Chadwick won at the mtv awards.
    Did he ever win there for The Jackie Robinson movie?

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