T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2021

[DigiCom]

Comics publishing has become so nostalgic and traditionalist that it's starting to devour its own tail. The books keep retelling variations of the same tired old narratives, over and over, due to a combination of creators wanting to give "their version" of an overused tale and editorial not willing to risk alienating existing readership by stepping out of their safe zone.

And when they do take risks, they often undercut it by clearly signposting that the "bold new direction" will be temporary, so that the core readership doesn't decrease too much.

In the case of T'Challa, the stories hinge around him having difficulties with his role as King. He either has folks from the outside (often Killmonger and/or Klaw) trying to depose him, another tribe from the inside fomenting revolt, or is confronted with a hard choice that makes him doubt his ability to be king.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

And when the scope of his responsibilities expands to multiple star systems, what does he do?

He runs back to Wakanda because he doesn't feel worthy. He passes responsibility to nuBaku, someone who has no training in governance, and swans off.

But hey! Some idiot in tights is doing bad things! He can handle that, right? Well, with the help of his ex....

[chief12d]

Comics publishing has become so nostalgic and traditionalist that it's starting to devour its own tail. The books keep retelling variations of the same tired old narratives, over and over, due to a combination of creators wanting to give "their version" of an overused tale and editorial not willing to risk alienating existing readership by stepping out of their safe zone.

And when they do take risks, they often undercut it by clearly signposting that the "bold new direction" will be temporary, so that the core readership doesn't decrease too much.

In the case of T'Challa, the stories hinge around him having difficulties with his role as King. He either has folks from the outside (often Killmonger and/or Klaw) trying to depose him, another tribe from the inside fomenting revolt, or is confronted with a hard choice that makes him doubt his ability to be king.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

And when the scope of his responsibilities expands to multiple star systems, what does he do?

He runs back to Wakanda because he doesn't feel worthy. He passes responsibility to nuBaku, someone who has no training in governance, and swans off.

But hey! Some idiot in tights is doing bad things! He can handle that, right? Well, with the help of his ex....

At least with giving power to NuM’Baku it allows T’Challa to maintain a certain status quo. The market forcefully rejected seeing BP in space with the failure of the last run and I think most fans would rather see T’Challa adventuring on Earth with the real Wakanda and the Avengers. So even if the KIB story itself wasn’t a great showing for T’Challa’s resolve, it does pretty much allow future writers to ignore that aspect of the mythos if they want. Which is needed, BP books would constantly flop if every other arc writers threw in a cosmic **** just for the sake of continuity, that’s objectively not what people want out of the character.

[Marvell2100]

At least with giving power to NuM’Baku it allows T’Challa to maintain a certain status quo. The market forcefully rejected seeing BP in space with the failure of the last run and I think most fans would rather see T’Challa adventuring on Earth with the real Wakanda and the Avengers. So even if the KIB story itself wasn’t a great showing for T’Challa’s resolve, it does pretty much allow future writers to ignore that aspect of the mythos if they want. Which is needed, BP books would constantly flop if every other arc writers threw in a cosmic **** just for the sake of continuity, that’s objectively not what people want out of the character.

That had to do more with the execution than the idea. Coates didn't understand that if you're going to do any kind of socio-political superhero stories, the hero of the story can't be an ineffective waffler.

[KingNomarch]

At least with giving power to NuM’Baku it allows T’Challa to maintain a certain status quo. The market forcefully rejected seeing BP in space with the failure of the last run and I think most fans would rather see T’Challa adventuring on Earth with the real Wakanda and the Avengers. So even if the KIB story itself wasn’t a great showing for T’Challa’s resolve, it does pretty much allow future writers to ignore that aspect of the mythos if they want. Which is needed, BP books would constantly flop if every other arc writers threw in a cosmic **** just for the sake of continuity, that’s objectively not what people want out of the character.

I want to see T'Challa have space adventures but what I didn't want was to waste two and half years on 12 years a slave in space. As seen in Ultimates, cosmic stories with T'Challa can work, just need the right writer.

[DigiCom]

At least with giving power to NuM’Baku it allows T’Challa to maintain a certain status quo. The market forcefully rejected seeing BP in space with the failure of the last run and I think most fans would rather see T’Challa adventuring on Earth with the real Wakanda and the Avengers. So even if the KIB story itself wasn’t a great showing for T’Challa’s resolve, it does pretty much allow future writers to ignore that aspect of the mythos if they want. Which is needed, BP books would constantly flop if every other arc writers threw in a cosmic **** just for the sake of continuity, that’s objectively not what people want out of the character.

Pardon my French, but funk the status quo. Why should I read new issues if the stories don't progress? And how can we know if a new direction is working if the writer never does anything with it? The fans didn't reject the idea of T'Challa in space... they rejected Coates's drawn-out and padded storyline about T'Challa in space because he's a hack who took what could be a good idea and turned it into a vaguely-defined exploration of how important memories are to a culture that never seemed that worried about it before.

It's not the new idea, it's the execution of same. But instead of trying to rescue the concept from the scrapheap Coates left it in, editorial greenlit a story that (as far as solicits can show) appears to be "T'Challa faces a challenge to his throne while Wakanda loses faith in him".

How bloody groundbreaking...

[chief12d]

That had to do more with the execution than the idea. Coates didn't understand that if you're going to do any kind of socio-political superhero stories, the hero of the story can't be an ineffective waffler.

I think it depends on what we’re talking about. The idea of T’Challa in space works for 6-10 issues max with the right story, doing it for 20+ issues with bad with a crappy story doesn’t work. Even if the story isn’t crappy I don’t you can convert T’Challa into a “cosmic” character, he’s an Earth-born king and Avenger, there’s no moving away from that in a remotely permanent sense.

Which is why I’m cool with Narcisse taking the route he did. Give it to a side character and let T’Challa visit the empire as needed in the future but keep the core of his being on Earth. That’s where all the juicy lore and character dynamics can be found. I frankly have no interest in reading about T’Challa as a space emperor for anything more than two back-to-back arcs and I suspect that’s the biggest reason Coates’ volume failed. No one picks up Doctor Strange for street-level crime epics, it could work for a handful of stories but that’s just not who the character is. T’Challa is the same way, he’s polymath superhero-king and headlining Avenger .

[Klaue's Mixtape]

Naw lol.

if anything it will probably make BPII look better going off DC's track record lol

The competition in July was fierce.

Idk man.

If Im GA I think I'd rather see Flash and two Batmen (Keaton and Affleck) than Shuri....and MCU Aquaman (I know who came first, but you get it)


Kind of crazy how they they had the primetime slot (May) at one point. Just a shame.

[BlackClaw]

Idk man.

If Im GA I think I'd rather see Flash and two Batmen (Keaton and Affleck) than Shuri....and MCU Aquaman (I know who came first, but you get it)


Kind of crazy how they they had the primetime slot (May) at one point. Just a shame.

I see where you’re coming from. 2022 might just be the year where things finally go right for DC on the film side of things. Then again, there’s still that controversy with Ray Fisher and a more recent one with how awfully Ruby Rose was treated on Batwoman.

[DigiCom]

No one picks up Doctor Strange for street-level crime epics, it could work for a handful of stories but that’s just not who the character is.

Strange is an interesting case, actually. Some of his best stories have been "street-level" (but indeed, not "crime epics"). Having him help one person¹ or family is a lot more interesting than having him confront Yet Another Threat To Reality Itself™, especially when that YATTRI is Dormammu, Nightmare, or Baron Mordo.

¹Of course, in one of his best stories, that one person was Victor Von Doom, but it was still less than cosmic in scope.

[Ezyo1000]

I like Nate Moore, but

1. He looks a tad stressed when discussing BP2.
2. How can someone so against T'Challa being killed in Infinity War be the same guy saying its about Wakanada. Thats...odd.
3. The more I think about it the worst it sounds. Just say you're trying to make the best film. Stop following Feige's cues of its about Wakanda. Are you honoring Chad or are you more concerned about whats happening in your phase?

Because they are trying to retro for something that wasn't set up that way. Kids were wanting to see more of a Black KING with his family and friends, a King who stood up to and alongside the Avengers, not as a sidekick, but an equal and kicked ass. A dude who rules the most advanced nation on earth. Showing Black excellence, black unity between men and women, and being a straight badass. No one is wanting to see what is trending on the Wakanda Kinoyotube. They want more of T'CHALLA. Same for the comics side too

It's like Batman syndrome. Every writer wants to get into his head on some kind of psycho-analytic trip. Okay, dudes a psychopath who likes violence. There, it's over, now go kick some ass Bruce.

It's like Dwight said in the office K.I.S.S "keep it simple stupid" we don't need some faux psych evaluation of T'Challa and what he thinks about internally, sometimes it's fine to get some thoughts, but T'Challa is more of a character you understand by what he says and DOES. Not what he thinks on monologue thought bubbles.

If we do get these internal monologues, have it be in character and not stupid isht like "I spied on the Avengers to LEARN from them because I'm a scientist at heart" bullisht, T'Challa spied on them to ensure they weren't a threat to Wakanda and befriended them afterwards, while also keeping tabs on how to take them down of necessary. T'Challa is a WARRIOR at heart who also is a King superhero and scientist on that order. That's the T'Challa I want to see written. The one Priest Hudlin, and Redjack on recent years has shown us

[Ezyo1000]

I think it depends on what we’re talking about. The idea of T’Challa in space works for 6-10 issues max with the right story, doing it for 20+ issues with bad with a crappy story doesn’t work. Even if the story isn’t crappy I don’t you can convert T’Challa into a “cosmic” character, he’s an Earth-born king and Avenger, there’s no moving away from that in a remotely permanent sense.

Which is why I’m cool with Narcisse taking the route he did. Give it to a side character and let T’Challa visit the empire as needed in the future but keep the core of his being on Earth. That’s where all the juicy lore and character dynamics can be found. I frankly have no interest in reading about T’Challa as a space emperor for anything more than two back-to-back arcs and I suspect that’s the biggest reason Coates’ volume failed. No one picks up Doctor Strange for street-level crime epics, it could work for a handful of stories but that’s just not who the character is. T’Challa is the same way, he’s polymath superhero-king and headlining Avenger .

I disagree, it's like others have been saying, it's because his story was ill-defined, lack a cohesive plot and multiple issues either were the same as the last or were completely random ass issues, both of which didn't move the plot. Is why it failed. Hudlin had T'Challa doing space **** and it worked out fine, it could of kept going because his story was INTERESTING and exciting. You don't do Wakanda in space against a evil Wakanda army and waste issue after issue with boring prose, erecting statues of characters no one cares about, and whatever other nonsense Coates threw to the wall. T'Challa in space works. Hell any concept from street level to cosmic works with T'Challa. You just can't half-ass it like Coates did otherwise IT WILL fail

[Ezyo1000]

Pardon my French, but funk the status quo. Why should I read new issues if the stories don't progress? And how can we know if a new direction is working if the writer never does anything with it? The fans didn't reject the idea of T'Challa in space... they rejected Coates's drawn-out and padded storyline about T'Challa in space because he's a hack who took what could be a good idea and turned it into a vaguely-defined exploration of how important memories are to a culture that never seemed that worried about it before.

It's not the new idea, it's the execution of same. But instead of trying to rescue the concept from the scrapheap Coates left it in, editorial greenlit a story that (as far as solicits can show) appears to be "T'Challa faces a challenge to his throne while Wakanda loses faith in him".

How bloody groundbreaking...

This. I am cautiously optimistic (through it's been dampered by the latest interview) for Ridley because it does appear that he likes T'Challa and wasn't afraid or shy to say that out the gate rather than going 3 interviews before saying what he did like about T'Challa like a certain someone.. so I'll try it out, but he better bring the heat, and if he doesn't then marvel needs to give them the boot and give the book to the guy who's already shown he gets T'Challa and wants to write him, who did in a one shot what Coates failed for 6 years.

[chief12d]

Strange is an interesting case, actually. Some of his best stories have been "street-level" (but indeed, not "crime epics"). Having him help one person¹ or family is a lot more interesting than having him confront Yet Another Threat To Reality Itself™, especially when that YATTRI is Dormammu, Nightmare, or Baron Mordo.

¹Of course, in one of his best stories, that one person was Victor Von Doom, but it was still less than cosmic in scope.

That’s why I made sure to specify you can go out of a character’s wheelhouse to massive success but in moderation. You can do great Doctor Strange street level stories, they exist. But will a Doctor Strange book survive doing that for an entire run? No, especially when even under regular circumstances he can barely hold a comic. I’m cool with T’Challa in space for an arc fighting a time displaced Wakandan empire. But for 6-8 issues and an eventual return to Earth. T’Challa works with the Avengers, rules Wakanda Prime, and hangs out with his friends and family on Earth, you can’t remove the character from that context for an extended period of time. That’s not to say though that I want retreads of rebellions and Klaw. I just don’t think that the only conceivable way to make the character fresh again is to completely torch everything that came before.

[DigiCom]

No, especially when even under regular circumstances he can barely hold a comic.

Define "regular circumstances"? Doctor Strange either had a solo book or shared a book from 1974-1996.

The idea that he couldn't hold a title only became a thing when Marvel editorial decided magic was too difficult to write (a "deus ex machina"), and decreed that he needed to be depowered to fit into the Avengers better. And he's been trapped in that box ever since.

It's really the same thing with T'Challa. Marvel has decided that he needs to be a reluctant and ineffective king, and keeps greenlighting stories where that gets explored. Hell, they couldn't even let him run the Avengers without having him defer to Captain America when things got dicey.

[BlackClaw]

I. Hate. It. Here.
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