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  1. #14116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    But it's more relevant outside of the comics to the fanbase. A lot of fans have referred to T'Challa as "my king" because it's pretty much a unique concept in mainstream comics.

    How much of a storyline should the democratic govt of Wakanda become? And if it isn't going to be an import part going forward, why make the change to begin with? Does the govt have any authority or control over T'Challa and what he does? Or is BP like Captain America, not loyal to the govt but the idea? How did the tribes fall in line?

    A lot of these questions won't get answered and really don't matter which is why it's an issue of why do this to begin with?
    T'Challa is still technically king though. Even the Prime Minister referred to him as "Your Highness". Same goes for Akili. Just to reiterate, I find the democracy stupid and disrespectful to the concept of Wakanda but it really only undermines the themes of Black Panther, not actual storytelling, assuming a writer wants to go that route.

    Ridley wants a version of T'Challa that is aggressive, manipulative, and isolated. He's telling a story about the fragility of power and secrets from T'Challa's past. It helps his story to give T'Challa an all encompassing political system as a rival, positioning him as an outsider discontent with the new status quo despite his own failings.

    Another writer may not want to tell that kind of story. Coates didn't, he ignored the democracy as soon as it was created with stories about demons and space empires. If Redjack gets the book we'd probably get something like his initial pitch to Marvel, focused on T'Challa as Marvel's Doc Savage on overseas adventures. Or we get a war epic from David Walker. I don't think there's a hard editorial mandate that the democracy be referenced or incorporated into every BP story. But there is a legitimate concern that it becomes the trend and we get more writers that simply choose to make the democracy the centerpiece of BP stories moving forward.

  2. #14117
    Ghost Panther Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    T'Challa is still technically king though. Even the Prime Minister referred to him as "Your Highness". Same goes for Akili. Just to reiterate, I find the democracy stupid and disrespectful to the concept of Wakanda but it really only undermines the themes of Black Panther, not actual storytelling, assuming a writer wants to go that route.

    Ridley wants a version of T'Challa that is aggressive, manipulative, and isolated. He's telling a story about the fragility of power and secrets from T'Challa's past. It helps his story to give T'Challa an all encompassing political system as a rival, positioning him as an outsider discontent with the new status quo despite his own failings.

    Another writer may not want to tell that kind of story. Coates didn't, he ignored the democracy as soon as it was created with stories about demons and space empires. If Redjack gets the book we'd probably get something like his initial pitch to Marvel, focused on T'Challa as Marvel's Doc Savage on overseas adventures. Or we get a war epic from David Walker. I don't think there's a hard editorial mandate that the democracy be referenced or incorporated into every BP story. But there is a legitimate concern that it becomes the trend and we get more writers that simply choose to make the democracy the centerpiece of BP stories moving forward.
    I agree, if a writer chooses to ignore it then the democracy is a non issue.

    It's when another writer does decide that he/she wants to focus on the Democratic Republic of Wakanda and all of the governmental nuances that this issues begin to surface.

    It could be a great story or Pandora's Box.

  3. #14118
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNomarch View Post
    If a writer really wants to get into Wakandan politics without rehashing some of the stuff we've seen before or without making Wakandans pro western culture , then they should model it after the Mali Empire and introduce Wakanda's version of the 12 Doors of Mali and the Gbara.
    Exactly This. If coates was aiming for a critique of wakandan autocracy in T'challa and wanted an alternative, then there are numerous examples of unautocratic government systems from precolonial Africa to choose from. The story is about a king from an African country uncolonized, why should a westerncentric worldview be the immediate thing to go for. A Gbara ( sort of parliamentary body from ancient mali ) or a Kotoko council ( same thing as the first but from the Ashanti empire ) would have been well accepted by me and I'm sure most of the complaining fans. Coates use of insultive stereotypes like rape camps and things like having one of the smartest men in the world seek the help of tinpot dictators and now his legacy of the "Wakandan Parliament" just shows that he doesn't/didn't understand the character at all.

    I hope future writers just ignore most of his bs
    Last edited by ThePantherKing; 12-06-2021 at 07:08 PM.

  4. #14119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I agree, if a writer chooses to ignore it then the democracy is a non issue.

    It's when another writer does decide that he/she wants to focus on the Democratic Republic of Wakanda and all of the governmental nuances that this issues begin to surface.

    It could be a great story or Pandora's Box.
    Agreed. Ridley right now has done a good job. I don't like everything (I would've been in favor of a cleaner slate that brought in less Coates era stuff) but I think he's laid out an interesting story that could respect continuity while returning the BP franchise to a more traditional status quo. For all we know this democracy may not be relevant after 12 issues lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePantherKing View Post
    Exactly This. If coates was aiming for a critique of wakandan autocracy in T'challa and wanted an alternative, then there are numerous examples of unautocratic government systems from precolonial Africa to choose from. The story is about a king from African country uncolonized, why should a westerncentric worldview be the immediate thing to go for. A Gbara ( sort of parliamentary body from ancient mali ) or a Kotoko council ( same thing as the first but from the Ashanti empire ) would have been well accepted by me and I'm sure most of the complaining fans. Coates use of insultive stereotypes like rape camps and things like having one of the smartest men in the world seek the help of tinpot dictators and now his legacy of the "Wakandan Parliament" just shows that he doesn't/didn't understand the character at all.

    I hope future writers just ignore most of his bs
    The thing is the Tribal Council was essentially the Gbara of Wakanda lol. It was a parliamentary system comprised of various leaders of what were essentially guilds led by chieftains from different regions of Wakanda. It just left out the caste elements because Wakanda is a more egalitarian society than Medieval Mali was. The MCU version of Wakanda had the same structure, the biggest difference being they were comprised of elders whereas all signs seem to suggest members of the Malian Gbara could be much younger.

    Wakanda may have been invented back in the 60s by white guys that probably didn't know much about medieval West African political systems, but its government has always lined up with indigenous African semi-democratic structures. We see this play out on several occasions, like when the council stripped T'Challa of the mantle in the Gillis run. Which actually makes them more powerful than the Gbara because the only way mansas got removed was if they were assassinated lol.

  5. #14120
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    Any previews of issue#2

  6. #14121
    Ultimate Life Form BlackClaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dariel81 View Post
    Any previews of issue#2
    Not yet. Hopefully soon.
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  7. #14122
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    And the thing is Wakanda has been progressive since the beginning lol. It's just not a Western form of progressivism and certainly not the kind of progressivism espoused by certain folks on Twitter and Reddit. There were obviously issues (namely the Dora Milaje and some religious conflicts) but Wakanda has always been a bastion of progressive/far-left governance, it simply wasn't modelled or informed by the same things that are present in Europe and North America.

    But that's not the image certain writers want to project and when a subset of your "fanbase" is the loudest in the room that kinda gets lost. So yea, seeing T'Challa call out the stupidity is nice even if there's a high chance he won't get exactly what he wants by the end of the story. And I could definitely see a scene in the future where T'Challa tells the Council to figure shit out themselves since they think they can manage every facet of Wakandan society without the figurehead that's been guiding their civilization for millennia lol.



    Once you start introducing Wakandan omega-level mutants, nuhumans, and super advanced cyborgs people are gonna start wondering why we're focusing on the guy in the cat suit. It can work in a team dynamic like the Avengers because it's an ensemble and T'Challa gets pigeonholed into being the "strategist" and statesman. It doesn't work if his supporting cast has too many superpowered types or if stories play into the fact such beings exist in Wakanda to any meaningful extent. It's no different than Batman, it's rare to see legitimately superpowered types up and about in Gotham and when they do pop up its temporary before they get exiled to places where they can be ignored (like Duke in the Outsiders).

    And besides, Wakanda is the most powerful, ancient, and "advanced" society on Earth because they represent the highest potential of human excellence. That gets diminished when they start relying on the fake "next step of humanity" and alien-adjacent citizens to defend themselves. It's the same reason writers are smart enough to not have Wakandans summon their gods whenever they get invaded, it takes away from the quintessentially human element that makes them so fantastically impressive.

    A low-level mutant or mutate is fine as part of some special operation but outside that, I have zero interest in seeing those characters play a prominent role. Like if we see Wakandan nuhumans infiltrate Attilan that'd be dope, but I want those kinds of characters firmly on the periphery, they don't need to take up space from side characters like Shuri and Okoye. Same goes for mutants and even vibranium mutates.
    I don't care for any mutants or mutates outside of vibraxas and Jakarra and even then It's only minor care lol.

    This is why is at each group needs a specific role. Right now the WK army and the Hz are basically treated as foot soldiers and the DM are the elite. The WK army should be a powerful force..

    However compared to the HZ and the DM they are fodder. The DM are the deadly by themselves or in pairs. And on a 1 to 1 comparison all moonwalk all over the WK army or HZ. The HZ are the ultimate fire fighting team, and a team of 4-5 HZ will moon walk all over a team of WK army or DM.

    So the WK army is just that, the DM work best solo or in pairs and the HZ work best on a group of 4-5. Keep them in tiers with specific power scaling and it makes it easy to keep up.

  8. #14123
    Mighty Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dariel81 View Post
    Any previews of issue#2
    I believe the previews come out the week before the issue releases

  9. #14124
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Agreed. Ridley right now has done a good job. I don't like everything (I would've been in favor of a cleaner slate that brought in less Coates era stuff) but I think he's laid out an interesting story that could respect continuity while returning the BP franchise to a more traditional status quo. For all we know this democracy may not be relevant after 12 issues lol.



    The thing is the Tribal Council was essentially the Gbara of Wakanda lol. It was a parliamentary system comprised of various leaders of what were essentially guilds led by chieftains from different regions of Wakanda. It just left out the caste elements because Wakanda is a more egalitarian society than Medieval Mali was. The MCU version of Wakanda had the same structure, the biggest difference being they were comprised of elders whereas all signs seem to suggest members of the Malian Gbara could be much younger.

    Wakanda may have been invented back in the 60s by white guys that probably didn't know much about medieval West African political systems, but its government has always lined up with indigenous African semi-democratic structures. We see this play out on several occasions, like when the council stripped T'Challa of the mantle in the Gillis run. Which actually makes them more powerful than the Gbara because the only way mansas got removed was if they were assassinated lol.
    Honestly yeah I hope at the ended this story they realize a democracy adds too much red tape and lack of action when isht goes sideways, reverting back to a monarch, however, T'Challa realizes that there is a benefit to a parliament handling day to day stuff he may miss due to a bunch of other responsibilities. So they agree to the monarch returning with extra power given to the Parliament that they can make decisions and vote and make laws that for the most part do not require T'Challa to approve, however bigger issues require his approval. More power to the people (Which doesn't matter to BP fans) and T'Challa is King who can do what he needs. Good y Western democracy that was dumb to add on the first place

  10. #14125
    Ultimate Life Form BlackClaw's Avatar
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    Did anyone find it strange how Hunter spoke with an American accent in BPQ?
    T'Challa
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    Six-Time People Magazine "Sexiest Man Alive"

  11. #14126
    Mighty Member KingNomarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackClaw View Post
    Did anyone find it strange how Hunter spoke with an American accent in BPQ?
    Yeah unless that Hunter grew up in America first before getting adopted by the RF or he picked up one during his time away. Otherwise he should've spoke with a Wakandan accent. Also wasn't a fan of the facial hair they gave him.

  12. #14127
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    T'Challa is still technically king though. Even the Prime Minister referred to him as "Your Highness". Same goes for Akili. Just to reiterate, I find the democracy stupid and disrespectful to the concept of Wakanda but it really only undermines the themes of Black Panther, not actual storytelling, assuming a writer wants to go that route.

    Ridley wants a version of T'Challa that is aggressive, manipulative, and isolated. He's telling a story about the fragility of power and secrets from T'Challa's past. It helps his story to give T'Challa an all encompassing political system as a rival, positioning him as an outsider discontent with the new status quo despite his own failings.

    Another writer may not want to tell that kind of story. Coates didn't, he ignored the democracy as soon as it was created with stories about demons and space empires. If Redjack gets the book we'd probably get something like his initial pitch to Marvel, focused on T'Challa as Marvel's Doc Savage on overseas adventures. Or we get a war epic from David Walker. I don't think there's a hard editorial mandate that the democracy be referenced or incorporated into every BP story. But there is a legitimate concern that it becomes the trend and we get more writers that simply choose to make the democracy the centerpiece of BP stories moving forward.
    Lmao...problem being, I don't give that much a damn about his government! I want him kicking asses, and taking on global threats! This is coming from someone that is engrossed in real world politics. Can I just read a good comic book again?

  13. #14128
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I don't care for any mutants or mutates outside of vibraxas and Jakarra and even then It's only minor care lol.

    This is why is at each group needs a specific role. Right now the WK army and the Hz are basically treated as foot soldiers and the DM are the elite. The WK army should be a powerful force..

    However compared to the HZ and the DM they are fodder. The DM are the deadly by themselves or in pairs. And on a 1 to 1 comparison all moonwalk all over the WK army or HZ. The HZ are the ultimate fire fighting team, and a team of 4-5 HZ will moon walk all over a team of WK army or DM.

    So the WK army is just that, the DM work best solo or in pairs and the HZ work best on a group of 4-5. Keep them in tiers with specific power scaling and it makes it easy to keep up.
    Thank you! You and Redjack stated this best when he dropped a post about citizen and military hierarchy.

  14. #14129
    Astonishing Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I agree. I don't want a solo BP book turned into World of Wakanda. Do a spin-off book for that stuff.
    I hear the concern that you guys have, however in a good writer that where we see in a nation that's so hardcore we would be able to see why he alone stands as capable enough to rule. Yes as an army, a cadre, or specialized group they can be powerful but show where he takes any of these units one on one, in spite of power or up grades. T'Challa still dominates. Its a fine narrative balance, but I would love to see it done.

  15. #14130
    Astonishing Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    I don't care for any mutants or mutates outside of vibraxas and Jakarra and even then It's only minor care lol.

    This is why is at each group needs a specific role. Right now the WK army and the Hz are basically treated as foot soldiers and the DM are the elite. The WK army should be a powerful force..

    However compared to the HZ and the DM they are fodder. The DM are the deadly by themselves or in pairs. And on a 1 to 1 comparison all moonwalk all over the WK army or HZ. The HZ are the ultimate fire fighting team, and a team of 4-5 HZ will moon walk all over a team of WK army or DM.

    So the WK army is just that, the DM work best solo or in pairs and the HZ work best on a group of 4-5. Keep them in tiers with specific power scaling and it makes it easy to keep up.

    The only reason I care is because wakanda does need more Defenders but none should come close to surpassing the capabilities of t'challa. If there ever was a World War wakanda event with characters invading then there are not enough non red shirts to make the story interesting.
    If its Thor or Ironman or insert hero/villain vs the hatut or the Dora then the redshirts are gonna be fodder.

    In an X-Men vs Wakanda situation its pretty much TChalla vs the Xmen. Need a few names and wakandan power sets to make that more interesting imo.

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