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  1. #616
    Mighty Member Odd Rödney's Avatar
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    I don't understand folks being upset about all the killing. It's the middle of a character arc. Clint will have to atone for this in some way and in doing so he will develop.

    Plus, the Avengers have murdered heaps of folks, when you think about it.
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  2. #617

  3. #618
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think there's a general disconnect between the tone and style of the MCU and the level of violence/casual killing we actually see in the movies that they don't really dwell on.
    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    Guess the difference is that the Avengers killing people was a side result on mandated missions by SHIELD or afterwards the World Security Council. The goal wasn't killing people, it was stopping Hydra or preventing terrorists from acquiring biological weapons. So when these guys opened fire on the heroes they sorta had it coming, whereas Clint's sole goal was to murder people and he wouldn't stop even if they surrendered.

    I do agree though that the contrast would work better if they had established some kind of no kill rule as in the comics.
    I don't disagree that there are differences mostly in the sense of maybe-not-so-bad criminals serving as collateral damage.
    The whole thing suffers from having been a subplot of tertiary importance in a movie that has kept these things kind of vague hence we don't know if you must have been involved in something truly bad for Ronin to have shown up or whether pushing an old lady at the sidewalk was enough to get you killed.
    Hell it ain't much clearer what exactly he did as a shield agent.
    We know he accepted collateral damage when he helped Natasha in Budapest.
    Last edited by Matternativ; 12-06-2021 at 06:52 PM.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  4. #619
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    I don't disagree that there are differences mostly in the sense of maybe-not-so-bad criminals serving as collateral damage.
    The whole thing suffers from having been a subplot of tertiary importance in a movie that has kept these things kind of vague hence we don't know if you must have been involved in something truly bad for Ronin to have shown up or whether pushing an old lady at the sidewalk was enough to get you killed.
    Hell it ain't much clearer what exactly he did as a shield agent.
    We know he accepted collateral damage when he helped Natasha in Budapest.
    I don't think he knew about the little girl though...

  5. #620
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think he knew about the little girl though...
    Maybe but I wasn't under the impression the whole building was supposed to be empty iirc.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  6. #621
    Incredible Member OOTCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think he knew about the little girl though...
    I don't see how he couldn't have known, since the entire plan rested on her. But I can sort of see them justifying it somehow by saying that killing this one girl will end the Red Room forever, thereby saving all the other girls. But in this case it just seems like he was killing to express his anger. He clearly didn't shut down the Tracksuits (and probably didn't completely shut down the Yakuza or any of the other criminal organizations he went after).

  7. #622
    Incredible Member chicago_bastard's Avatar
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    We know that Clint knew about Dreykov's daughter because he was the one who told Loki about it when he was under his mind control.
    Tolstoy will live forever. Some people do. But that's not enough. It's not the length of a life that matters, just the depth of it. The chances we take. The paths we choose. How we go on when our hearts break. Hearts always break and so we bend with our hearts. And we sway. But in the end what matters is that we loved... and lived.

  8. #623
    Fantastic Member Sneakronicity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicago_bastard View Post
    We know that Clint knew about Dreykov's daughter because he was the one who told Loki about it when he was under his mind control.
    He knew about it when Loki had him, but we don't know he knew about it at the time. He and Natasha were very close so there are things she could have told him years later. I agree it's all quite vague, though Endgame did make sure to point out that it was the drug cartel and Yakuza specifically he went after in that film, not just random petty criminals.

  9. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby Quartz Diamond View Post
    How are the Clint Barton fans so far? Are you all enjoying the show so far? If so, that's good.
    So far it's great. It's a good blend of Fraction Hawkeye and MCU Hawkeye. Plus the Christmas theme was a good choice. We won't be debating if this is a Christmas story the way we debate that with Die Hard.

  10. #625
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    That's actually like my least favourite aspect of it but then again I don't want Christmas in anything because I'm a Grinch.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  11. #626
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I am really bummed Clint has no relationship with Swordsman here.

  12. #627
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    I feel like the show goes out if it's way to highlight the differences between MCU and Comic Clint.
    spoilers:

    - he meets jack through Kate
    - he doesn't go for the dodge challenger
    - he asks "why boomerang arrows"
    end of spoilers
    I know some people get bummed out about it but it feels like a form of acknowledment to me in a way.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  13. #628
    Spectacular Member Ruby Quartz Diamond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I am really bummed Clint has no relationship with Swordsman here.
    Same. Whatever this show addressed with Clint regarding his past is only his Ronin past and his survivor's guilt over Nat's death. I'm concerned on how they are going to wrap the show in 2 episodes with so many things thrown at the audience. The show so far has been a disappointment and kinda meh, which is how I feel with every Phase 4 project except for Shang-Chi.

  14. #629
    I hate Christmas Matternativ's Avatar
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    I do feel like now would be a nice time to dive into everything pre Shield or something.
    "̶l̶̶e̶̶t̶'̶s̶̶ ̶̶h̶̶a̶̶v̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶o̶̶m̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶f̶̶u̶̶n̶̶,̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶h̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶b̶̶e̶̶a̶̶t̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶s̶̶ ̶̶s̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶.̶̶ ̶̶i̶̶ ̶̶w̶̶a̶̶n̶̶n̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶t̶̶a̶̶k̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶a̶̶ ̶̶r̶̶i̶̶d̶̶e̶̶ ̶̶o̶̶n̶̶ ̶̶y̶̶o̶̶u̶̶r̶̶ ̶̶d̶̶i̶̶s̶̶c̶̶o̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶k̶̶"
    "Let's have some fun, this riff is sick. I wanna mosh around in the Circle Pit!"

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  15. #630
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matternativ View Post
    I feel like the show goes out if it's way to highlight the differences between MCU and Comic Clint.
    spoilers:

    - he meets jack through Kate
    - he doesn't go for the dodge challenger
    - he asks "why boomerang arrows"
    end of spoilers
    I know some people get bummed out about it but it feels like a form of acknowledment to me in a way.
    I hate Ultimate Hawkeye in MCU Hawkeye.

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