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  1. #1006

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshal88 View Post
    the internet killed wrestling. kayfabe is not what it used to be.
    Kayfabe died when Vince admitted in open court it was scripted. He then buried it in '97 when he admitted it on Raw.
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  2. #1007
    Ultimate Member Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think WWE accidentally contributed to it a bit with their sometimes unwise creative decisions; once you know your audience is fully in on the gimmick, you have to be able to intelligently construct it when you’re aware critical thoughts will be applied to it - much like superhero movies.

    Vince is “the last of the carnies” in some ways, and while he’s still an excellent businessman, he’s often allowed his own “carny” beliefs about the audience to override simple observational skills or intelligent input from others, resulting in his product - the defining one for the business - as being highly artificial even beyond it being a pre-planned stunt show.

    I think AEW’s emergence is a good thing, but not so much as a competitor or anything like that, but almost as a “release valve” the industry needed so that Vince’s combination of great profit-securmeent but poor entertainment knowledge doesn’t shrink the industry quiet as fast as it was.
    I get what you're saying here. If the most prominent super-hero movies were on the level of Steel or Green Lantern, I might not be so eager to watch any super-hero movies.
    Watching television is not an activity.

  3. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    I get what you're saying here. If the most prominent super-hero movies were on the level of Steel or Green Lantern, I might not be so eager to watch any super-hero movies.
    For the record, it took quite a while to really have WWE’s annual content to degrade to that level after the 90’s boom - while there’s usually whole almanacs composed of choices that people can pull “Vince did something stupid in terms of the booking” everywhere, it didn’t really become an egregious issue until the final years of Cena’s run as the #1 star.

    And oddly, I think that a weird aspect of AEW’s surge now in crossover with Impact, alongside NXT’s continued existence as a viable weekly show if not a juggernaut, is that the National market was always big enough for about three “brands” with three distinct rosters, so WWE’s numerous attempt to run separate brands was a good idea that just failed at execution.

    I think if Vince were either a bit less of a control freak, or a bit more savvy about how to handle his storylines and rosters, he could have been sitting on a multi-channel empire of a Raw specific roster and show, a Smackdown specific roster and show, and an ECW specific roster and show, with *something* like NXT as a developmental but exciting program beneath them all... and doing so for the forseeable future.

    WWE clearly had the capital to run that kind fo monstrously prolific monopoly... but they kept on falling to the foibles of Vince, and now have accidentally triggered a rise in alternatives to the main roster programming almost because nature abhors a vacuum.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  4. #1009

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    This week's ROH episode had a really good match between Angelina Love and Quinn McKay. From a "moves" perspective it wasn't anything amazing, but it told a great story and had you invested in it for the whole thing. Pretty impressive considering McKay's limited experience in ROH.
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  5. #1010
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    This week's ROH episode had a really good match between Angelina Love and Quinn McKay. From a "moves" perspective it wasn't anything amazing, but it told a great story and had you invested in it for the whole thing. Pretty impressive considering McKay's limited experience in ROH.
    A good workrate is not just spamming lots of moves.

    Telling a story and grabbing the audience is often the mark of a high workrate, not just moves.

    You can have both ... but it is not always just "moves."

    I'll have to check that one out!
    "Always listen to the crazy scientist with a weird van or armful of blueprints and diagrams." -- Vibranium

  6. #1011

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    A good workrate is not just spamming lots of moves.

    Telling a story and grabbing the audience is often the mark of a high workrate, not just moves.

    You can have both ... but it is not always just "moves."

    I'll have to check that one out!
    I agree. I was more saying it as a way to indicate the type of match it was, not to downplay one over the other.
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  7. #1012
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noodle View Post
    I agree. I was more saying it as a way to indicate the type of match it was, not to downplay one over the other.
    Oh I understand what you meant.

    You pretty much sold it on me because I have not been enjoying the spot monkey and move spam trend lately.

    More and more matches (WWE / AEW / ROH / even NJPW) have been like watching a kid giving a CAW in their favorite video game all the finishers as regular moves.

    Kind of dumb, IMHO.

    I prefer psychology and enough logic for me to suspend my disbelief. When the Young Bucks are throwing Super Kicks and dropping cutters like no tomorrow, it takes me out of the match. When half of NXT are dropping top rope DDTs on the apron and the person kicks out ... it takes me out of the match. When a piledriver doesn't end a match ... it take me out of the match. When a convoluted series of in-ring events occurs and Tana is somehow able to hit a High Fly Flow out of the ring when nobody has left the ring in 20 minutes ... it takes me out of the match. Etc.

    Probably why I have a hard time watching most lucha. You never hit their arm but SUDDENLY they tap out to an armbar? Really?
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 05-11-2021 at 10:48 AM.
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  8. #1013
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    In his latest video my friend defends recent criticism of characters such as Alexa Bliss and Orange Cassidy -

    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #1014
    Extraordinary Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    Oh I understand what you meant.

    You pretty much sold it on me because I have not been enjoying the spot monkey and move spam trend lately.

    More and more matches (WWE / AEW / ROH / even NJPW) have been like watching a kid giving a CAW in their favorite video game all the finishers as regular moves.

    Kind of dumb, IMHO.

    I prefer psychology and enough logic for me to suspend my disbelief. When the Young Bucks are throwing Super Kicks and dropping cutters like no tomorrow, it takes me out of the match. When half of NXT are dropping top rope DDTs on the apron and the person kicks out ... it takes me out of the match. When a piledriver doesn't end a match ... it take me out of the match. When a convoluted series of in-ring events occurs and Tana is somehow able to hit a High Fly Flow out of the ring when nobody has left the ring in 20 minutes ... it takes me out of the match. Etc.

    Probably why I have a hard time watching most lucha. You never hit their arm but SUDDENLY they tap out to an armbar? Really?
    imo that's one of the more logical aspects of lucha. traditionally in lucha you don't see a limb worked to set up a submission, and you don't see a guy laying in a submission hold for long periods of time before tapping regardless of rudo/tecnico roles. it's like if you get caught in the hold that's it, it's done. which is actually more realistic. off the top i can only think of one real fight where a leg was worked and then the fight finished with a leg lock.

    am i reading something wrong here Beastie?? a very odd post considering the things you listed that take you out of a match and then the thing that hinders your enjoyment of lucha.


    does anybody out there think the **** with alexa bliss is not completely fukn horrible??

  10. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLbo View Post
    imo that's one of the more logical aspects of lucha. traditionally in lucha you don't see a limb worked to set up a submission, and you don't see a guy laying in a submission hold for long periods of time before tapping regardless of rudo/tecnico roles. it's like if you get caught in the hold that's it, it's done. which is actually more realistic. off the top i can only think of one real fight where a leg was worked and then the fight finished with a leg lock.

    am i reading something wrong here Beastie?? a very odd post considering the things you listed that take you out of a match and then the thing that hinders your enjoyment of lucha.


    does anybody out there think the **** with alexa bliss is not completely fukn horrible??
    Some folks of youtube love it and I can't for the life of me understand why.

    The whole thing with Alexa Bliss is terrible IMO.

  11. #1016
    Unadjusted Human on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Jeff Jarrett has a cool new Podcast with Conrad Thompson now called MY WORLD. Of course he brings up a few big things....


    - Jarrett brings up that yes , Steve Austin had heat with him and as Jeff joked he didn't seem to mind stunning him each week. Thompson brings up that at the time the IC Championship was a belt where stars like Rock , HHH , Steve Austin , Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels had all been elevated up. And Jarrett was a 6 time champion ! That he was like the Assistant Store manager and Austin was the manager. But he'd never get a chance against him because Austin refused to work with him.


    - Its here where Jarrett discusses that he understood why Austin was not wanting to do that because he was top star and he was worried his popularity would go down if it happened. Where he was so hot. But he does feel that he would have been a perfect program for Steve. That for months Austin had faced big guys like Undertaker and Kane. But with him he was the type who could talk people into wanting Stone Cold to destroy him. That Austin could have beaten him up good in program .

    - Russo is quoted at the time saying it was getting harder to work with Steve Austin. But Jarrett shoots this down with ...every top star gets that. He is sure Jerry Lawler got that as did everyone else who has been World Champion.


    - They bring up Debra being taken away from him as valet and Jarrett confirms it was an Austin decision. And he sorta knew it was coming as the news had came out on a plane flight and Paul Bearer joked that , well she won't be with you much longer. So he knew it was coming as Austin & her was a couple behind the scenes.



    Jarrett in a clip I watched discussed his $300,000 pay day he got where he held up company to get paid what he was owed. Jeff put the figure at 2-3 PPV's he was owed , 2-3 house show runs and the pay cut he was forced to take. A fact he confirmed Jim Ross account where Ross offered him $150,000. But Jeff looked at him and said .."J.R thats nice , but I been thinking. Lets double that and make it $300,000...." (He also made sure there was a way they couldn't stop him from getting paid)


    But he did offer the wise words to A.J Styles in TNA where he'd advise him in early years. To make sure he makes all he can. That you have to be this way in this business because you have a limited time to earn all you can.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.
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  12. #1017
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigLbo View Post
    imo that's one of the more logical aspects of lucha. traditionally in lucha you don't see a limb worked to set up a submission, and you don't see a guy laying in a submission hold for long periods of time before tapping regardless of rudo/tecnico roles. it's like if you get caught in the hold that's it, it's done. which is actually more realistic. off the top i can only think of one real fight where a leg was worked and then the fight finished with a leg lock.

    am i reading something wrong here Beastie?? a very odd post considering the things you listed that take you out of a match and then the thing that hinders your enjoyment of lucha.
    Well ... I don't think you're reading it wrong.

    A) I have weird tastes;
    and
    B) I have a lot of puro and American/Canadian tendencies, so when I see the lack of a leg being worked on, it breaks my immersion because my brain has been conditioned to expect it;
    and
    C) I don't care about realism per se, just that there is logic, flow, and psychology in the match.

    I do, however, like and enjoy how the WAR-era puro and pretty much all lucha do it ... the fact that when a sub is on, the match is over. I would love to see more struggling to apply, resting in a partial hold than sitting in a crab for 5 minutes or a headlock.

    Again, I am weird and it makes no sense. But that is my weird-ass tastes. I think with lucha is that my brain is not wired to think that way most of the time (and maybe the fact that I don't know enough Spanish to follow a match whereas with Japan and German wrestling, I can understand it perfectly) so it breaks my immersion. I am not saying it is bad because nearly every year a lucha match or 3 pop into my top 10 matches.

    And yes while the Bliss stuff is weird and different, they are really making no sense with it now. They lost me on it.

    Speaking of ...

    NJPW is announcing a 4 person, 2 team US excursion group for the summer to it sounds like ROH and AEW.

    Any thoughts / guess who they might be??

    I am hoping for Minoru Suzuki!
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 05-12-2021 at 12:43 PM.
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  13. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    A good workrate is not just spamming lots of moves.

    Telling a story and grabbing the audience is often the mark of a high workrate, not just moves.

    You can have both ... but it is not always just "moves."

    I'll have to check that one out!
    RIP MARVEL HEROES 04.06.2013 - 27.11.2017
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  14. #1019
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    Watching AEW and during the Bucks vs SCU they reenacted the ending to HBK retiring Flair at Mania and later on Inner Circle gave the Pinnacle a water? bath a la Austin/Angle beer/milk bath. Now I'm wondering if they threw in more reenactments that I didn't catch ��

  15. #1020
    Extraordinary Member BigLbo's Avatar
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    have i ever mentioned that i hate jericho, his face in particular?? i won't really mind seeing the circle break up, they've done a good job melding as a unit but never seemed like a natural fit. it will be a travesty we never get the sammy/jericho "yo i'm cuban b!!" moment though. hopefully santana & ortiz get a good tag title push soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    Well ... I don't think you're reading it wrong.

    A) I have weird tastes;
    and
    B) I have a lot of puro and American/Canadian tendencies, so when I see the lack of a leg being worked on, it breaks my immersion because my brain has been conditioned to expect it;
    and
    C) I don't care about realism per se, just that there is logic, flow, and psychology in the match.

    I do, however, like and enjoy how the WAR-era puro and pretty much all lucha do it ... the fact that when a sub is on, the match is over. I would love to see more struggling to apply, resting in a partial hold than sitting in a crab for 5 minutes or a headlock.

    Again, I am weird and it makes no sense. But that is my weird-ass tastes. I think with lucha is that my brain is not wired to think that way most of the time (and maybe the fact that I don't know enough Spanish to follow a match whereas with Japan and German wrestling, I can understand it perfectly) so it breaks my immersion. I am not saying it is bad because nearly every year a lucha match or 3 pop into my top 10 matches.
    i didn't take it as a slight to lucha at all, just after reading the kind of things you said took you out of north american(and i'd imagine european as well) wrestling that would've been the last things i'd xpect to bother you about lucha.

    out of curiosity how do you feel about shoot style, modern or old??

    pretty sure we've talked about this before at some point over the years, but what is your preference in puro and when did you get into it??

    And yes while the Bliss stuff is weird and different, they are really making no sense with it now. They lost me on it.

    Speaking of ...

    NJPW is announcing a 4 person, 2 team US excursion group for the summer to it sounds like ROH and AEW.

    Any thoughts / guess who they might be??

    I am hoping for Minoru Suzuki!
    i'd love to see honma & makabe because if not now it will probably never happen and i'd love to see my man goto get a chance to shine out here.
    Last edited by BigLbo; 05-13-2021 at 12:18 AM.

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