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  1. #616
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    It's not even remotely for me or us die-hards, and THAT'S why you get Taylor, and that's what I want.
    Just wanted to highlight this point and show the kind of audience Taylor brings as per Twitter:

    - I'm not traditionally a big Superman reader but I got to read the 1st issue of Superman - Son of Kal-El from @TomTaylorMade @johntimmsart @GabeEltaeb and OF COURSE they've created a Superman comic that I loved and now I'm a Superman reader.

    - I’m not really a Superman fan, but Superman: Son of Kal-El #1 is pretty amazing. I may have to finally pull a Superman book.

    - I added it to my pull list. First Superman book I’ve ever pulled. The story really checks all the boxes I look for in a comic and the art by John Timms is incredible along with the colors by Gabe Eltaeb. This book is truly special and I can’t wait to see what others think!

    - I am definitely not a Superman fan (Raised on Batman), but I am legit looking forward to reading this. It looks so good and after Nightwing, I'm pretty sure you can do no wrong.

    This Superman isn’t for us die-hard fans. This Superman is for an even tougher audience—the ones who were never sold on the concept in the first place. And they’re picking up a Superman comic, leaving their preconceptions at the door, and discovering that, in fact, Superman is for them! I could end up hating the book but still be glad for the new fans it creates.

  2. #617
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    This Superman isn’t for us die-hard fans. This Superman is for an even tougher audience—the ones who were never sold on the concept in the first place. And they’re picking up a Superman comic, leaving their preconceptions at the door, and discovering that, in fact, Superman is for them! I could end up hating the book but still be glad for the new fans it creates.
    If those people liked that first issue, then they would love Superman Rebirth and Super Sons (and hopefully retroactively learn how disappointing SSoK is and how it was not worth throwing those books away).

    I'd also like to point out creators love to boost tweets that make their books look good. I wonder how many people read the first issue and didn't like it because they most certainly exist, but you wouldn't know that if you're only source of information is Tom Taylor.
    Last edited by garazza; 07-22-2021 at 08:32 AM.

  3. #618
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    If those people liked that first issue, then they would love Superman Rebirth and Super Sons (and hopefully retroactively learn how disappointing SSoK is and how it was not worth throwing those books away).
    But if the Jon that resonates with people in issue #1 is a young man who stands up against his government, whose drive for justice is influenced by Lois Lane, is one who has to carry the immense narrative weight of being Superman, and whose mission statement is “Truth, Justice, and A Better World”, why would they go backwards to a version that doesn’t have any of that? New readers may check out Rebirth and Super Sons and enjoy some wholesome, politically-safe kid Superboy adventures, but they’ll see kid Jon as setup and backstory. Especially so if their first impression of Jon is a justice-driven young man out to change the world. I can’t imagine readers getting invested in that but then ditching it and saying “I’ll just wait later.”

    I'd also like to point out creators love to boost tweets that make their books look good. I wonder how many people read the first issue and didn't like it because they most certainly exist, but you wouldn't know that if you're only source of information is Tom Taylor.
    Of course, pleasing 100% of people is virtually impossible. People that won’t like this book do exist. But it’s undeniable that Taylor does have an actual buying audience, and some of them are expressing getting into Superman for the first time, which is always a win in my book.

  4. #619
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    I figure Son of Kal-El #1 is going to be the best selling Superman comic of the post-Action Comics 1000 era. After that, I have no idea. Maybe stabilizes around Taylor's Nightwing, if people like it (doesn't have as much of an in-built audience but is certain to pull more people outside that audience)?

  5. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan58 View Post
    I figure Son of Kal-El #1 is going to be the best selling Superman comic of the post-Action Comics 1000 era. After that, I have no idea. Maybe stabilizes around Taylor's Nightwing, if people like it (doesn't have as much of an in-built audience but is certain to pull more people outside that audience)?
    Stabilizing around Nightwing isn’t something to discount, given his status as an A list superhero in his own right and being THE Robin

  6. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    But if the Jon that resonates with people in issue #1 is a young man who stands up against his government, whose drive for justice is influenced by Lois Lane, is one who has to carry the immense narrative weight of being Superman, and whose mission statement is “Truth, Justice, and A Better World”, why would they go backwards to a version that doesn’t have any of that? New readers may check out Rebirth and Super Sons and enjoy some wholesome, politically-safe kid Superboy adventures, but they’ll see kid Jon as setup and backstory. Especially so if their first impression of Jon is a justice-driven young man out to change the world. I can’t imagine readers getting invested in that but then ditching it and saying “I’ll just wait later.”
    First, kids are very justice-driven and very much want to effect change in the world. You can deage Jon and still have have him invested in affecting change. In fact, having he attempt this from the perspective of a kid who is still learning about the way the world works could be unique, especially since pretty much every Superhero is trying to affect change. It's just a matter of how much the writer wants to focus on those elements.

    Second, people connected to Jon as a kid. That's why people are still frustrated about this age up. So it's not like you'd have one version that people connected too and another that people didn't. So to say deaging him would be going backwards isn't technically accurate. It would provide a opportunity to provide the context and the journey of kid Jon to college Jon that a lot of Jon fans feel they were robbed of.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Of course, pleasing 100% of people is virtually impossible. People that won’t like this book do exist. But it’s undeniable that Taylor does have an actual buying audience, and some of them are expressing getting into Superman for the first time, which is always a win in my book.
    I think Garazza's point is that we see people on twitter say something like that with almost every run. I remember a number of posts about Johnson's run saying something similar. And sales-wise we've seen how well that has worked out.

    I think it's understood that if anyone can make Teen Jon work, it's Tom Taylor, but that doesn't mean it's a sure thing.
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  7. #622
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    But if the Jon that resonates with people in issue #1 is a young man who stands up against his government, whose drive for justice is influenced by Lois Lane, is one who has to carry the immense narrative weight of being Superman, and whose mission statement is “Truth, Justice, and A Better World”, why would they go backwards to a version that doesn’t have any of that? New readers may check out Rebirth and Super Sons and enjoy some wholesome, politically-safe kid Superboy adventures, but they’ll see kid Jon as setup and backstory. Especially so if their first impression of Jon is a justice-driven young man out to change the world. I can’t imagine readers getting invested in that but then ditching it and saying “I’ll just wait later.”



    Of course, pleasing 100% of people is virtually impossible. People that won’t like this book do exist. But it’s undeniable that Taylor does have an actual buying audience, and some of them are expressing getting into Superman for the first time, which is always a win in my book.
    Remember when DC made Wally West black? Whatever traits that character possessed made new readers fall in love with him, but at the end of the day, that wasn't Wally West. DC stupidly backed themselves into a corner, but, much to their credit, they were miraculously able to weasel out of it by bringing back the character everyone wanted while also keeping the new character by making him his own character and not the replacement for another. Readers will fall in love with a teenaged Superman, not Jon Kent. My greatest fear is people associating Jon as the teenaged Superman and not the ten year old son of Lois and Clark. I'd rather aged Jon get unceremoniously killed off and the real Jon is brought back and we can continue where 2018 left off, but I'm starting to think a lot of people have fallen into the sunk cost fallacy where too much "effort" has been put into the age up that they might as well stick with it when reality is that just because some people liked it doesn't mean it was all that good or worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    First, kids are very justice-driven and very much want to effect change in the world. You can deage Jon and still have have him invested in affecting change. In fact, having he attempt this from the perspective of a kid who is still learning about the way the world works could be unique, especially since pretty much every Superhero is trying to affect change. It's just a matter of how much the writer wants to focus on those elements.

    Second, people connected to Jon as a kid. That's why people are still frustrated about this age up. So it's not like you'd have one version that people connected too and another that people didn't. So to say deaging him would be going backwards isn't technically accurate. It would provide a opportunity to provide the context and the journey of kid Jon to college Jon that a lot of Jon fans feel they were robbed of.
    THIS!

  8. #623
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    People are drawing a false equivalency between Kennedy Johnson and Tom Taylor


    Tom Taylor is leaps and bounds ahead of Kennedy in terms of brand, and Kennedy was screwed over by DC by refusing to cancel Superman to make action comics into the only Superman comic on the shelves while Tom Taylor worked on son of Kal-el

    There is simply no fucking way this comic collapses without being toxic


    If legion couldn’t collapse under 30,000 issues with far less critical acclaim than Nightwing is getting...this won’t either
    Last edited by kryptonian; 07-22-2021 at 12:27 PM.

  9. #624
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Just wanted to highlight this point and show the kind of audience Taylor brings as per Twitter:

    - I'm not traditionally a big Superman reader but I got to read the 1st issue of Superman - Son of Kal-El from @TomTaylorMade @johntimmsart @GabeEltaeb and OF COURSE they've created a Superman comic that I loved and now I'm a Superman reader.

    - I’m not really a Superman fan, but Superman: Son of Kal-El #1 is pretty amazing. I may have to finally pull a Superman book.

    - I added it to my pull list. First Superman book I’ve ever pulled. The story really checks all the boxes I look for in a comic and the art by John Timms is incredible along with the colors by Gabe Eltaeb. This book is truly special and I can’t wait to see what others think!

    - I am definitely not a Superman fan (Raised on Batman), but I am legit looking forward to reading this. It looks so good and after Nightwing, I'm pretty sure you can do no wrong.

    This Superman isn’t for us die-hard fans. This Superman is for an even tougher audience—the ones who were never sold on the concept in the first place. And they’re picking up a Superman comic, leaving their preconceptions at the door, and discovering that, in fact, Superman is for them! I could end up hating the book but still be glad for the new fans it creates.
    Yeah! I've been seeing a bunch of these around twitter along with just the general dying down of the "age him down" crowd, and it warms my heart. Chances are it means that the a lot of people interested in the book are totally new to either comics or worrying about Superman outside of a movie or two, and that's what I want to see from this book.

    And with it being Jon specifically you can, ironically enough, introduce this new and young Superman to anyone without having to really explain much of anything. You literally just go "he's Clark Kent and Lois Lane's son, and he's Superman now because his dad had to leave Earth" then BOOM go! The space stuff, Legion stuff, and even aging up is all just window dressing as far as the pitch and draw for the book goes, and that's something that's genuinely unique to Jon-- his strength of concept. In the Superman myth that level of readability is only overshadowed by the The Guy himself.

    So when I explain it to my friends there's never going to be a point where their eyes glaze over. And what's even nicer is that Taylor will be flexing those adaptation muscles of his and he'll be doing some streamlining with Jon's origin, and maybe other stuff too.

    https://twitter.com/tomtaylormade/st...143601152?s=21

    Taylor: "We've tried to consolidate the three different versions of the birth into one 'prime' birth. "

    I'm hoping that the fact that Earth-3 has been rebooted, it's not mentioned in the solicitation for issue #1 even though everything else is, and Taylor joked about how confusing the age up was in an interview means that he's been given the go-ahead to heavily edit it to maybe just being his time in space with Jor-El aging him up, or growing up with the Legion maybe?

    I'm sure as someone who has produced and written a cartoon he's aware of how to navigate the situation for maximum readability for the viewer/reader. I plan on celebrating issue #1 by buying all my friends copies, and then continuing to buy them copies for the whole first arc. This really could be my guy, and I can't contain my hype anymore.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 07-22-2021 at 03:00 PM.
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  10. #625
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yeah! I've been seeing a bunch of these around twitter along with just the general dying down of the "age him down" crowd, and it warms my heart. Chances are it means that the a lot of people interested in the book are totally new to either comics or worrying about Superman outside of a movie or two, and that's what I want to see from this book.

    And with it being Jon specifically you can, ironically enough, introduce this new and young Superman to anyone without having to really explain much of anything. You literally just go "he's Clark Kent and Lois Lane's son, and he's Superman now because his dad had to leave Earth" then BOOM go! The space stuff, Legion stuff, and even aging up is all just window dressing as far as the pitch and draw for the book goes, and that's something that's genuinely unique to Jon-- his strength of concept. In the Superman myth that level of readability is only overshadowed by the The Guy himself.

    So when I explain it to my friends there's never going to be a point where their eyes glaze over. And what's even nicer is that Taylor will be flexing those adaptation muscles of his and he'll be doing some streamlining with Jon's origin, and maybe other stuff too.

    https://twitter.com/tomtaylormade/st...143601152?s=21

    Taylor: "We've tried to consolidate the three different versions of the birth into one 'prime' birth. "

    I'm hoping that the fact that Earth-3 has been rebooted, it's not mentioned in the solicitation for issue #1 even though everything else is, and Taylor joked about how confusing the age up was in an interview means that he's been given the go-ahead to heavily edit it to maybe just being his time in space with Jor-El aging him up, or growing up with the Legion maybe?

    I'm sure as someone who has produced and written a cartoon he's aware of how to navigate the situation for maximum readability for the viewer/reader. I plan on celebrating issue #1 by buying all my friends copies, and then continuing to by them copies for the whole first arc. This really could be my guy, and I can't contain my hype anymore.
    I'm glad you're as excited for this as I was when Jon was first introduced.

  11. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yeah! I've been seeing a bunch of these around twitter along with just the general dying down of the "age him down" crowd, and it warms my heart. Chances are it means that the a lot of people interested in the book are totally new to either comics or worrying about Superman outside of a movie or two, and that's what I want to see from this book.

    And with it being Jon specifically you can, ironically enough, introduce this new and young Superman to anyone without having to really explain much of anything. You literally just go "he's Clark Kent and Lois Lane's son, and he's Superman now because his dad had to leave Earth" then BOOM go! The space stuff, Legion stuff, and even aging up is all just window dressing as far as the pitch and draw for the book goes, and that's something that's genuinely unique to Jon-- his strength of concept. In the Superman myth that level of readability is only overshadowed by the The Guy himself.

    So when I explain it to my friends there's never going to be a point where their eyes glaze over. And what's even nicer is that Taylor will be flexing those adaptation muscles of his and he'll be doing some streamlining with Jon's origin, and maybe other stuff too.

    https://twitter.com/tomtaylormade/st...143601152?s=21

    Taylor: "We've tried to consolidate the three different versions of the birth into one 'prime' birth. "

    I'm hoping that the fact that Earth-3 has been rebooted, it's not mentioned in the solicitation for issue #1 even though everything else is, and Taylor joked about how confusing the age up was in an interview means that he's been given the go-ahead to heavily edit it to maybe just being his time in space with Jor-El aging him up, or growing up with the Legion maybe?

    I'm sure as someone who has produced and written a cartoon he's aware of how to navigate the situation for maximum readability for the viewer/reader. I plan on celebrating issue #1 by buying all my friends copies, and then continuing to by them copies for the whole first arc. This really could be my guy, and I can't contain my hype anymore.
    That is the foundational reason why Jon won’t get erased without a series of COMPLETE failures and a complete and utter overhaul of DC publishing culture


    He’s simply too easy to pitch in an elevator...timeless in his simplicity in a way that is only rivaled or surpassed by Kara Zor-el and Dick Grayson

    He is the son of Superman that allows Superman to be the Christopher reeves old dad cliche without worrying about making Clark “angsty” to be relatable, that is his brand, everything else is adding to an already solid concept or easily erased outside of the age up that can easily be aged down to 14


    Want an angsty kryptonian...go with Jon

    Want a gay or bisexual kryptonian hero...go with Jon

    Want to explore Superman falling in love with Wonder Woman...Yara and Jon are way cuter than Clark and Diana

    Want a social justice driven authoritarian...Jon is right there


    And the post above really demonstrates why...even his toxic history of being aged up isn’t going to taint his brand if he is given a solid run by Taylor.

    And if he is given a memorable Nightwing-esque persona...he shall be golden.


    and if Jon no longer spent his time on earth 3...can we PLEASE put his childhood on earth-50(justice lords regime) or the injustice universe.

    PLEASE
    Last edited by kryptonian; 07-22-2021 at 02:44 PM.

  12. #627
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    I'm glad you're as excited for this as I was when Jon was first introduced.
    Yeah, like I've said, I'm happy for anyone who's happy. And I am VERY happy for Taylor (which is why I just compliment his Nightwing run on his twitter and don't talk about Superman...I save that complaining for everywhere else). But honestly this all sounds like the makings of a very boring character now. A well written and well thought out one, because Taylor. But boring. We now have three young adult Supers and Jon sounds like the least interesting one. And that's really saying something because Conner is arguably an even bigger mess right now.

    Like...even if I wasn't salty about DC's insistence on skipping over what should have been the most interesting years of his life, this all would still sound way too....meh. Nothing that I couldn't get out of other books/series, with better characters. If this is what Jon would have always grown up to be, regardless of if he got to age up naturally, it'd still be disappointing and I'd have still probably noped out, but at least we would have had more years to enjoy him reaching this point. It's like a road trip, where the journey is more fun than the destination itself.

    But instead I'm just left feeling like I was given a story with a promising start, an "okay" conclusion, and a middle that probably would have been really good had it not been cut out....Good God, Jon is the movie adaptations of Harry Potter.

    And in most cases, I'd have probably shrugged it off. This isn't the first time a character that I liked was ruined for me. But damn it, Jon was special. He was the character that made me give Superman books another chance. He was the character that made me see Clark in a different light. And most importantly, he was the character that let me know that the New 52 era was really over and that I could start reading DC books again after YEARS of just saying "nope". He represents a whole era that made me feel hopeful about mainstream comics again. And of course that was never gonna last. Of course he wasn't gonna stay a kid forever, and I wouldn't want him to anyway. But damn...some more time would have been nice. Coming of age stories are my favorites but they just skipped right over the "becoming a man" part and now we're just...almost to him reaching that point. As if the journey itself doesn't matter. I don't care about the destination. That's almost always underwhelming anyway. I want the journey. And that's...honestly something Marvel consistently does better with their young heroes than DC.
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-22-2021 at 02:53 PM.

  13. #628
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    You exclusively bolded this part of my comment so I assume you were specifically addressing this:

    But if the Jon that resonates with people in issue #1 is a young man who stands up against his government, whose drive for justice is influenced by Lois Lane, is one who has to carry the immense narrative weight of being Superman, and whose mission statement is “Truth, Justice, and A Better World”, why would they go backwards to a version that doesn’t have any of that?
    And you replied with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    Remember when DC made Wally West black? Whatever traits that character possessed made new readers fall in love with him, but at the end of the day, that wasn't Wally West. DC stupidly backed themselves into a corner, but, much to their credit, they were miraculously able to weasel out of it by bringing back the character everyone wanted while also keeping the new character by making him his own character and not the replacement for another. Readers will fall in love with a teenaged Superman, not Jon Kent.
    We probably have very different understandings of Jon then, because I believe that a Jon who stands up to his government and strives to uphold his parents’ legacies is still very much Jon Kent at the end of the day. In fact, I think those traits perfectly embody his heroic qualities. To say this Jon is so inconceivable that he should be split off from his history or killed seems pretty extreme to me.

    And I strongly disagree with the notion that people who solely like kid Jon are “real” fans of the “real” Jon and that everyone else only likes an imposter. If he’s not your Jon and you prefer to embrace a different era that’s cool, but please let’s not gatekeep other fans. Clark has more drastically different versions of himself and we can agree he’s still Clark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    First, kids are very justice-driven and very much want to effect change in the world. You can deage Jon and still have have him invested in affecting change. In fact, having he attempt this from the perspective of a kid who is still learning about the way the world works could be unique, especially since pretty much every Superhero is trying to affect change. It's just a matter of how much the writer wants to focus on those elements.

    Second, people connected to Jon as a kid. That's why people are still frustrated about this age up. So it's not like you'd have one version that people connected too and another that people didn't. So to say deaging him would be going backwards isn't technically accurate. It would provide a opportunity to provide the context and the journey of kid Jon to college Jon that a lot of Jon fans feel they were robbed of.
    Yeah, I’ve said before this book isn’t for us die hards, and I doubt a casual reader will think, “we should erase older Jon but then take the scraps of him that’s appealing and retrofit it onto younger Jon”.

  14. #629
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yeah! I've been seeing a bunch of these around twitter along with just the general dying down of the "age him down" crowd, and it warms my heart. Chances are it means that the a lot of people interested in the book are totally new to either comics or worrying about Superman outside of a movie or two, and that's what I want to see from this book.

    And with it being Jon specifically you can, ironically enough, introduce this new and young Superman to anyone without having to really explain much of anything. You literally just go "he's Clark Kent and Lois Lane's son, and he's Superman now because his dad had to leave Earth" then BOOM go! The space stuff, Legion stuff, and even aging up is all just window dressing as far as the pitch and draw for the book goes, and that's something that's genuinely unique to Jon-- his strength of concept. In the Superman myth that level of readability is only overshadowed by the The Guy himself.

    So when I explain it to my friends there's never going to be a point where their eyes glaze over. And what's even nicer is that Taylor will be flexing those adaptation muscles of his and he'll be doing some streamlining with Jon's origin, and maybe other stuff too.

    https://twitter.com/tomtaylormade/st...143601152?s=21

    Taylor: "We've tried to consolidate the three different versions of the birth into one 'prime' birth. "

    I'm hoping that the fact that Earth-3 has been rebooted, it's not mentioned in the solicitation for issue #1 even though everything else is, and Taylor joked about how confusing the age up was in an interview means that he's been given the go-ahead to heavily edit it to maybe just being his time in space with Jor-El aging him up, or growing up with the Legion maybe?

    I'm sure as someone who has produced and written a cartoon he's aware of how to navigate the situation for maximum readability for the viewer/reader. I plan on celebrating issue #1 by buying all my friends copies, and then continuing to buy them copies for the whole first arc. This really could be my guy, and I can't contain my hype anymore.
    That’s great that you’re doing that for your friends! I hope they enjoy it.

    I have heard from someone that there were plans to do more with Earth-3, but now that universe has been rebooted I wouldn’t mind Jon getting a streamlined rewrite of his history. Taylor getting to flex his adaptation muscles makes me imagine how wonderful it would be to have a Superman: Son of Kal-El animated series.

    What’s up with all the secrecy around the SoKE book though? We barely have any plot details, not much information on the supporting cast or villains (despite seeing the potential villains in the backups so hardly spoiler territory there), and even some covers are being withheld from us. In comparison, Nightwing had a flurry of art previews, early comic reviews, and even a poll for the puppy! What’s so big a spoiler that it can’t be revealed right now?

    Crazy theory, but what if Taylor was being literal about the book being a response to Injustice and the main villain is actually…Injustice Superman?

    Nah. It’s ridiculous and mucks up both stories’ continuities. But it is fun to think about and it does scratch DC’s itch to have authoritarian Superman in main continuity. Regardless, I’m excited for all the big surprises Taylor has in store for us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Yeah, I’ve said before this book isn’t for us die hards, and I doubt a casual reader will think, “we should erase older Jon but then take the scraps of him that’s appealing and retrofit it onto younger Jon”.
    You don't actually have to erase the older Jon to bring back the kid version. There are numerous ways around it. Either way, I think you're putting too much weight on the casual readers who often say they'll show up and rarely actually do. We'll see what happens, but DC's fortunes, especially outside of the Batman family, has been dire recently. I'm sure issue one will do well, but maintaining that momentum is a different matter. The kid Jon fans have proven they won't shut up (go us), so that desire is going to continue to be vocalized.
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