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  1. #631
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Yeah I've been saying for a while now that a compromise would have been possible since time travel is now a part of Jon's story. This is literally a situation where they actually could have pleased everyone. But chose not to.

    Either bring the real Jon back and have older Jon exist as the Superman of the future. Or pull a Future Trunks (Or you know...what the X-Men have done multiple times) and just have them exist in the same time, with their own separate adventures. That actually would have been pretty neat seeing the obvious shift in timelines that would create, and seeing how he grows into someone different from his alternate future self.
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-23-2021 at 09:26 AM.

  2. #632
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    You exclusively bolded this part of my comment so I assume you were specifically addressing this:



    And you replied with this:



    We probably have very different understandings of Jon then, because I believe that a Jon who stands up to his government and strives to uphold his parents’ legacies is still very much Jon Kent at the end of the day. In fact, I think those traits perfectly embody his heroic qualities. To say this Jon is so inconceivable that he should be split off from his history or killed seems pretty extreme to me.

    And I strongly disagree with the notion that people who solely like kid Jon are “real” fans of the “real” Jon and that everyone else only likes an imposter. If he’s not your Jon and you prefer to embrace a different era that’s cool, but please let’s not gatekeep other fans. Clark has more drastically different versions of himself and we can agree he’s still Clark.
    I think we're just fans of two different things, and there's nothing wrong that. My problem is with DC unnecessarily dividing interest in a brand new character. Unlike Jon, in my opinion, Clark can stand to have different versions and characterizations that fans love but are also contradictory to each other because he's a character with a long history. I was critical of Tom King's Batman, but I wasn't as upset about as a lot of others were because Batman's been around for 80 years, he can survive a bad run. This divide between kid Jon and aged up Jon is so clear and distinctive that they might as well just be two different characters independent from one another, hence why I brought up Wally and Wallace. Like I said, I would personally rather aged up Jon not exist altogether, but I'm not the one running the ship at DC making all the decisions, so once their experiment fails and they still want to keep around, there's nothing I can do about it so long as they bring back kid Jon so I can start buying Superman books again.

  3. #633
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Yeah I've been saying for a while now that a compromise would have been possible since time travel is now a part of Jon's story. This is literally a situation where they actually could have pleased everyone. But chose not to.

    Either bring the real Jon back and have older Jon exist as the Superman of the future. Or pull a Future Trunks (Or you know...what the X-Men have done multiple times) and just have them exist in the same time, with their own separate adventures. That actually would have been pretty neat seeing the obvious shift in timelines that would create, and seeing how he grows into someone different from his alternate future self.
    Having a kid and young adult Jon co-existing would be a lot of fun, and would be a way to please everyone, mostly.
    The only drawback I see is that is squeezes Conner out even more than he already is.

  4. #634
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    You don't actually have to erase the older Jon to bring back the kid version. There are numerous ways around it. Either way, I think you're putting too much weight on the casual readers who often say they'll show up and rarely actually do. We'll see what happens, but DC's fortunes, especially outside of the Batman family, has been dire recently. I'm sure issue one will do well, but maintaining that momentum is a different matter. The kid Jon fans have proven they won't shut up (go us), so that desire is going to continue to be vocalized.
    Taylor said that the goal is accessibility, so developing kid Jon and teen Jon at the same time runs counter to that. Back in the Silver Age DC ran stories of younger Clark Superboy and adult Clark Superman at the same time, but trying to reconcile that history led to wild contradictions and DC jumping through some hilariously convoluted hoops to patch history. We saw something similar happen as recent as New 52, with a younger Clark in Action and an older one in Superman. There were issues behind-the-scenes because the writers had no idea which elements they were allowed to use in order to not conflict with each other. I don’t believe DC wants a repeat of that kind of office politics. The only viable way to keep two versions of Jon together without conflicting their histories is for one for them to remain in stasis, which is exactly the reason why kid Jon in Adventure and Challenge of the Super Sons is frozen is time as it is.

    Knowing that Jon was created to be a new Superman, I can see why Didio was concerned that Jon would end up as a Bat-mite—that is, Jon would’ve ended up stuck in the kid archetype. Not that Jon can’t be an amazing kid character, but being a teenager is his default, much in the same way that Clark is defaulted as an adult and being a kid is the “when they were young” era. We already see that Jon is a teenager in his widest-reaching mass media portrayal so there’s that.

    Also I think Jon HUGELY lucked out when Taylor asked to write his book, because Taylor brought in a ton of goodwill from already writing an older Jon in DCeased. I’ve said that without Taylor, Jon as Superman would have struggled going in otherwise. There are still some people that complain for sure, but nowhere near the amount of grief they’ve been giving Bendis or to a smaller degree PKJ.

  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Taylor said that the goal is accessibility, so developing kid Jon and teen Jon at the same time runs counter to that. Back in the Silver Age DC ran stories of younger Clark Superboy and adult Clark Superman at the same time, but trying to reconcile that history led to wild contradictions and DC jumping through some hilariously convoluted hoops to patch history. We saw something similar happen as recent as New 52, with a younger Clark in Action and an older one in Superman. There were issues behind-the-scenes because the writers had no idea which elements they were allowed to use in order to not conflict with each other. I don’t believe DC wants a repeat of that kind of office politics. The only viable way to keep two versions of Jon together without conflicting their histories is for one for them to remain in stasis, which is exactly the reason why kid Jon in Adventure and Challenge of the Super Sons is frozen is time as it is.

    Knowing that Jon was created to be a new Superman, I can see why Didio was concerned that Jon would end up as a Bat-mite—that is, Jon would’ve ended up stuck in the kid archetype. Not that Jon can’t be an amazing kid character, but being a teenager is his default, much in the same way that Clark is defaulted as an adult and being a kid is the “when they were young” era. We already see that Jon is a teenager in his widest-reaching mass media portrayal so there’s that.

    Also I think Jon HUGELY lucked out when Taylor asked to write his book, because Taylor brought in a ton of goodwill from already writing an older Jon in DCeased. I’ve said that without Taylor, Jon as Superman would have struggled going in otherwise. There are still some people that complain for sure, but nowhere near the amount of grief they’ve been giving Bendis or to a smaller degree PKJ.
    First off, we've literally seen versions of Batman Beyond run along side mainline comics. We currently have multiple comics taking place in the Future Slate timeline. To say DC couldn't juggle present and future versions of the same character is completely incorrect based on what we've seen.

    Second, Jon is Superman & Lois has no baring on what we're going to see in the comics. Teen isn't his default version. The most well-known version of Oliver Queen married Felicity Smoak. The comics still pairs Ollie with Dinah. There are numerous other examples of characters that are huge in other media being very different in the comics, but it's the versions that popular in the comic-verse that endures in the comics.

    Additionally, if one actually talked to the people who are pissed off about the age-up, they have no desire to see him stuck as a kid. They just want to see that status quo fully explored and allowed to see him grow up over time. Basically, the treatment that Damian is currently getting.
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  6. #636
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Being a teenager as Jon's default is a relatively new thing.
    To me it's just limiting the stories they can tell.
    They had Superman as the adult, Kara as a young adult, Conner as basically a teenager and Jon as a kid.
    Now we have two teen/young adults with Jon and Conner, so they both struggle for their spotlight. Clearly Jon is getting the push, so Clark is out of his own book and there's less attention for Conner - I hope he does manage to stick around - and the stories that could be told with kid Jon aren't going to be told.
    And that family dynamic with Clark, Lois and Jon as a kid is gone. They only got to be parents to a kid for five-six years, and now he's an adult. Knowing how afraid comics are of older characters I expect Jon being an adult could hurt the way they write Lois now that she's the mother a grown man.
    So Jon being aged up isn't just bad for Jon - although it is - it's bad for the whole cast.
    It's hard not to feel negative about it when they have to ship Clark off to space to make room for Jon.

  7. #637
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    First off, we've literally seen versions of Batman Beyond run along side mainline comics. We currently have multiple comics taking place in the Future Slate timeline. To say DC couldn't juggle present and future versions of the same character is completely incorrect based on what we've seen.

    Second, Jon is Superman & Lois has no baring on what we're going to see in the comics. Teen isn't his default version. The most well-known version of Oliver Queen married Felicity Smoak. The comics still pairs Ollie with Dinah. There are numerous other examples of characters that are huge in other media being very different in the comics, but it's the versions that popular in the comic-verse that endures in the comics.

    Additionally, if one actually talked to the people who are pissed off about the age-up, they have no desire to see him stuck as a kid. They just want to see that status quo fully explored and allowed to see him grow up over time. Basically, the treatment that Damian is currently getting.
    Yes, all of this.
    I don't object to Jon growing up some day, but what's the rush? I want to see him grow over time. He was only introduced five-ish years ago and DC has rushed his whole childhood away.

  8. #638
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    The best you can realistically hope for is for him to be aged to 14

    Which is more or less the average height that most artists draw Jon as

    Lol

  9. #639
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Honestly, I still would have been annoyed but I would have been mostly okay with them aging him up to 13/14. They just went WAY overboard.

  10. #640
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    The best you can realistically hope for is for him to be aged to 14

    Which is more or less the average height that most artists draw Jon as

    Lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Honestly, I still would have been annoyed but I would have been mostly okay with them aging him up to 13/14. They just went WAY overboard.
    Seriously. If the age up was intended to get Jon and Damian closer in age, that would've been perfectly acceptable. I never really liked Damian being explicitly 13 (at the time) and Jon being explicitly 10, one, because it's much too limiting when comics should be as loose, dynamic, and fluid as possible, and two, because I couldn't really wrap my mind around a 13 year old and 10 year old being that good of friends when they're both in very different places, both physically and developmentally. Like, their best possible status quo would be them as classmates as wells as friends, and not just attending the same school.

    They could've achieved aging Jon up to 14 with the simple excuse of a wormhole aging him a few years. You'd get the drama and sadness of his parents (and the fans) missing out on a few years of their son's life, but not enough that it was completely and utterly wasted. Sure, we would've missed out on his tween years, but so long as they kept Jon's tween charm as he entered adolescences, it would've been accepted soon enough. And hey, he could've joined the Teen Titans and expanded the love fans had seeing Jon and Damian banter in Super Sons to a larger cast, further connecting and cementing Jon's place in the DCU.

    Sadly, DC had other plans, but the same logic that got them in this toxic mess can be used to get them out of it. My pitch would be Jon gets exposed to Red Kryptonite and he ages backwards to 14, and boom, problem solved.

    There's always the compromise solution of two Jons, but I like mine lol.

  11. #641
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    I'm fairly certain the only reason Damian turned 13 was because they wanted him to head up the Teen Titans in Rebirth. Beyond that, he was pretty much the same as he was when he was ten, except he had crushes on a couple of girls. In fact, they kind of just bumped him up from 10 to 13 with little fanfare other than Alfred getting him a birthday cake.

    Honestly, I wonder if they only made Damian 14 in Infinite Frontier, so they could use that line Taylor sometimes does explaining that the age difference is actually the same now, just reversed, to calm Super Sons fans. Of course, that ignores the myriad of reasons the age difference worked in the first place with Damian as the older one.
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  12. #642
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    It ignores that the whole reason the dynamic worked was because they were more or less at the same stages of their lives. All these attemps to convince people that the dynamic hasn't changed ignores that the real interesting story to be told is that the dynamic has changed. I'm ambivalent to the age-up, but I figure there's more to mine there than just the nostalgia-bait of insisting they haven't changed.

  13. #643
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Taylor said that the goal is accessibility, so developing kid Jon and teen Jon at the same time runs counter to that. Back in the Silver Age DC ran stories of younger Clark Superboy and adult Clark Superman at the same time, but trying to reconcile that history led to wild contradictions and DC jumping through some hilariously convoluted hoops to patch history. We saw something similar happen as recent as New 52, with a younger Clark in Action and an older one in Superman. There were issues behind-the-scenes because the writers had no idea which elements they were allowed to use in order to not conflict with each other. I don’t believe DC wants a repeat of that kind of office politics. The only viable way to keep two versions of Jon together without conflicting their histories is for one for them to remain in stasis, which is exactly the reason why kid Jon in Adventure and Challenge of the Super Sons is frozen is time as it is.

    Knowing that Jon was created to be a new Superman, I can see why Didio was concerned that Jon would end up as a Bat-mite—that is, Jon would’ve ended up stuck in the kid archetype. Not that Jon can’t be an amazing kid character, but being a teenager is his default, much in the same way that Clark is defaulted as an adult and being a kid is the “when they were young” era. We already see that Jon is a teenager in his widest-reaching mass media portrayal so there’s that.

    Also I think Jon HUGELY lucked out when Taylor asked to write his book, because Taylor brought in a ton of goodwill from already writing an older Jon in DCeased. I’ve said that without Taylor, Jon as Superman would have struggled going in otherwise. There are still some people that complain for sure, but nowhere near the amount of grief they’ve been giving Bendis or to a smaller degree PKJ.
    If the suggestion from people here is that they'd like kid Jon and teen Jon to exist in the same time as separate characters while teen Jon is being pushed as a new and new reader friendly Superman, I can't really see how you'd think that something likely. Just because someone on here are doubting the strength of new-to-comics readers doesn't mean DC is. They're likely not about to mess with the simple nature of "he's Clark Kent and Lois Lane's son, and now he's Superman" buy adding "oh and he also has a time displaced younger version of himself so one of both of them is effectively a time anomaly, but it's cool he's still Superman"

    I strongly doubt this is on the mid of anyone at DC least of all Taylor who even joked in an interview about how complicated Jon's age up already was. Why would he complicate it further by magnifying it and adding in time displacement younger versions to things?
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #644
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    What is more likely to happen is that Val-Zod is turned into Jon Kent’s Superboy


    Jon having a Superboy of his own, with a black son of Zod who might or might not grow up to be a weird amalgam between Calvin Ellis and Val-Zod

  15. #645
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    I kind of doubt that.

    I think it's more likely Jon and Val will team up in a Spider-Verse sort of way.

    Both have in common the fact that they're following after the example Clark set in their own way, and they're doing their best.

    It would effectively be the return of Earth-1 and Earth-2 Supermen. Taylor'd probably write it pretty dang well.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

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