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  1. #646
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    If the suggestion from people here is that they'd like kid Jon and teen Jon to exist in the same time as separate characters while teen Jon is being pushed as a new and new reader friendly Superman, I can't really see how you'd think that something likely. Just because someone on here are doubting the strength of new-to-comics readers doesn't mean DC is. They're likely not about to mess with the simple nature of "he's Clark Kent and Lois Lane's son, and now he's Superman" buy adding "oh and he also has a time displaced younger version of himself so one of both of them is effectively a time anomaly, but it's cool he's still Superman"

    I strongly doubt this is on the mid of anyone at DC least of all Taylor who even joked in an interview about how complicated Jon's age up already was. Why would he complicate it further by magnifying it and adding in time displacement younger versions to things?
    To be fair, I was suggesting that the older Jon is the time displaced one XD

    It's a solution that can't last forever because, as you said, one of them is an anomaly. But if it's anything like when the original five X-Men were suddenly sharing time with displaced versions of themselves (one of the few modern-ish Bendis ideas that actually ended up being pretty okay...mostly because of other writers) then it's something that could at the very least get people a few more years with whichever Jon they want before one of them eventually has to go away.

    And, much like the O5, it'd be interesting as hell to see how Jon that experience results in Jon growing up to actually be different from his older self.
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-23-2021 at 03:59 PM.

  2. #647
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Sounds convoluted to me. Just introduce that other kid from Future State. Pyrrhos. Way more interesting anyway. A Kryptonian who can use magic!

  3. #648
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    Introducing pyrrhos won’t be hard given that it is premise that can happen at any point in Clark’s life

    Superman getting drugged by a witch

  4. #649
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    To be fair, I was suggesting that the older Jon is the time displaced one XD

    It's a solution that can't last forever because, as you said, one of them is an anomaly. But if it's anything like when the original five X-Men were suddenly sharing time with displaced versions of themselves (one of the few modern-ish Bendis ideas that actually ended up being pretty okay...mostly because of other writers) then it's something that could at the very least get people a few more years with whichever Jon they want before one of them eventually has to go away.

    And, much like the O5, it'd be interesting as hell to see how Jon that experience results in Jon growing up to actually be different from his older self.
    But you're missing the point of my post and getting hung up on the nerd sh!t that this whole book and Taylor's whole point is decidedly not about.

    That overly complex solution may be just another day at the shop for you or I, but that's not the case for the casual fan-- hell, even the guy that reads comics but just doesn't dig Superman. That would be convoluted and would fly in the face of Taylor going out of his way to streamline even Jon's Rebirth origin (let that sink in. The Rebirth origin was already streamlined, but I'll bet the fact that it felt the need to work in a composite history for the New 52 and Lois & Clark (thus putting Clark in non classic suit at the time of Jon's birth) was enough for Taylor to still cut it down).

    Readability and clarity is Taylor's goal, and very likely DC's goal too. They want new reader to be able to just jump on this and continue on with it with little to no questions that don't directly pertain to the plot and adventures of the new Superman.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

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  5. #650
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Plus, it frees up space for the real Superboy (Clark Kent) to make his return.

  6. #651
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But you're missing the point of my post and getting hung up on the nerd sh!t that this whole book and Taylor's whole point is decidedly not about.

    That overly complex solution may be just another day at the shop for you or I, but that's not the case for the casual fan-- hell, even the guy that reads comics but just doesn't dig Superman. That would be convoluted and would fly in the face of Taylor going out of his way to streamline even Jon's Rebirth origin (let that sink in. The Rebirth origin was already streamlined, but I'll bet the fact that it felt the need to work in a composite history for the New 52 and Lois & Clark (thus putting Clark in non classic suit at the time of Jon's birth) was enough for Taylor to still cut it down).

    Readability and clarity is Taylor's goal, and very likely DC's goal too. They want new reader to be able to just jump on this and continue on with it with little to no questions that don't directly pertain to the plot and adventures of the new Superman.
    Oh, no. I got the point. I completely understand that it runs counter to what Taylor's trying to do. But considering my entire attitude towards this run has already been:



    There is no version where we get both Jons that's going to be totally New-reader friendly. But then, not every comic is made with that in mind. And this doesn't have to be one either. I'm not saying don't try to get new readers. But thinking only about "how do we get new people" give you good enough ideas to get good enough sales on your #1 and #2 issues but it usually comes with a gimmick that loses steam after that initial excitement (like that rebooted and cancelled Legion). It's not a surefire means of success. It's not even one that I'd say is worth the risk when you're also doing things that make you lose parts of the audience you already had. So then what did you gain? You might have new readers to fill in the blanks that were left by the old ones who jumped ship, but that just puts you back where you started instead of being in a better position. Rendering your efforts pointless.

    My other take would just be to keep saying "Fuck it. De-age Jon or bust!" but I'm just trying to think of a solution that would satisfy both parties in some way. One that theoretically could work and has worked with other characters before. I'm aware that it has anything to do with Taylor's attempt at streamlining his origin (though it honestly doesn't have to contradict it either). I'm just spitballing ways a compromise could have happened. And if that means taking a bigger chance with new readers (because this doesn't automatically mean you won't get any) while lessoning the chance of losing the customers you already have I'd say that's about the same level of risk that they're already taking by doing what they've already been doing.

    No matter what they do, replacing Superman (Because yes. They are trying to replace Clark) is gonna be a risk anyway. One that they've been so dead set on taking that they were willing to completely ruin a character's development so that they could shove him into that role prematurely. Might as well try to be as safe as possible with it and give your readers options.

    Course another option would be bringing in another super kid who hopefully ends up being everything Jon should have, but that feels just as hollow as both PKJ and Taylor's attempts at trying to recapture the feeling of old Jon. it also cheapens the one and only thing current Jon has that makes him special. Like...it'd be a little better I guess. But at this point...the kid's just gotta be Jon.
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-23-2021 at 05:14 PM.

  7. #652
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    I don't think the "Deage Jon" crowd is gonna be relevant at all in a few years. The show that's basically introducing Jon Kent to the General Audience has him within the age range of the current Jon in the comics.

    (Also, how are they replacing Clark? He's literally getting a story arc that's supposed to be the biggest since the Death and Return of Superman. Doesn't add up!)

  8. #653
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    Yep. "Superman & Lois" may not be a hit show but it's certainly going to be more impactful on how Jon is seen by the general population than any monthly comic book.

    The only problem is that it would mean the General Population will see Jon as "the son of Superman and Lois that does not have powers".

  9. #654
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan58 View Post
    Yep. "Superman & Lois" may not be a hit show but it's certainly going to be more impactful on how Jon is seen by the general population than any monthly comic book.

    The only problem is that it would mean the General Population will see Jon as "the son of Superman and Lois that does not have powers".
    Blondie will probably get powers soon anyway.

  10. #655
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    I don't think the "Deage Jon" crowd is gonna be relevant at all in a few years. The show that's basically introducing Jon Kent to the General Audience has him within the age range of the current Jon in the comics.

    (Also, how are they replacing Clark? He's literally getting a story arc that's supposed to be the biggest since the Death and Return of Superman. Doesn't add up!)
    Not having any details yet, I don't think the "biggest story since death" teaser has really got people excited yet. That's a pretty big claim with nothing to back it up so far. I hope it is not just big, but a great story and one that engages with the readers (and me).
    Right now I'm grumpy about Jon being aged up and Clark being off in space away from his supporting cast in what should be a crucial time, he should be dealing with fall out from the reveal of his identity but that story is already failing to hit all the beats before moving on to the next story.
    And from Jon being sent off into space with Jor-El (the dumbest thing Clark and Lois have probably ever done), Jon being fast aged in space, then sent to the future and aged some more, it feels wrong to so quickly separate the family again. We might accept Jon aging and moving into a new role if we were given some time to let the characters breath a little.

  11. #656
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    I don't think the "Deage Jon" crowd is gonna be relevant at all in a few years. The show that's basically introducing Jon Kent to the General Audience has him within the age range of the current Jon in the comics.
    Oh I'm aware it's a losing battle. But then, I thought being a part of the "Wanda should be a mutant again" crowd was too and now it looks like we finally be getting what we want. Same with the "give the Titans their history back, and bring back THE REAL Wally West and Donna troy" crowds, "Bring Steph and/or Cass back as Batgirl" crowds, "Get Spidey and MJ back together" crowds. There are quite a few "fix this travesty" situations I've been in that did eventually get fixed. It might take years but I'm willing to wait. If these threads are any indicator, I'm a stubborn bastard XD

    (Also, how are they replacing Clark? He's literally getting a story arc that's supposed to be the biggest since the Death and Return of Superman. Doesn't add up!)
    Replacing Clark in the sense that Jon's...basically doing everything that was once Clark's job. Right down to them being Supermen of the same damn city. They keep stressing how it's Jon's responsibility to fill Clark's shoes. To replace Clark. Right down to PKJ's poorly written Super sons conversation where Jon replacing Clark was all Damian could talk about. Hell there's even speculation that he's joining the Justice League once Clark leaves (oh joy. Bendis writing Jon again. That's always "fun").

    Clark may not be going anywhere in a literal sense, but everything I've seen and heard suggests that they are trying very hard for him to eventually just straight up take a backseat to his son.

    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    And from Jon being sent off into space with Jor-El (the dumbest thing Clark and Lois have probably ever done), Jon being fast aged in space, then sent to the future and aged some more, it feels wrong to so quickly separate the family again. We might accept Jon aging and moving into a new role if we were given some time to let the characters breath a little.
    Lois is particularly disgusting for actually going with them into space and then leaving after only a few days. Like...that's almost Morrison Talia levels of not giving a fuck about your kid XD

    Could she have done anything to stop what happened? Obviously not. But that's not really the point. She abandoned her child with someone that Clark didn't even trust to be alone with him. And neither she nor Clark have really had any moment to reflect on the absolutely awful situation they're in. No they shouldn't spend every waking moment angsting over it but for fuck's sake, their straight up negligence ruined their son's childhood and cost them the chance to raise him through the most formidable years of his life. But it was mostly shrugged off as easily as Jon's super traumatizing experience on Earth-3.

    Because nobody at DC cares about the journey when it comes to him. They just want the instant gratification.
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-23-2021 at 05:49 PM.

  12. #657
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Oh I'm aware it's a losing battle. But then, I thought being a part of the "Wanda should be a mutant again" crowd was too and now it looks like we finally be getting what we want. Same with the "give the Titans their history back, and bring back THE REAL Wally West and Donna troy" crowds, "Bring Steph and/or Cass back as Batgirl" crowds, "Get Spidey and MJ back together" crowds. There are quite a few "fix this travesty" situations I've been in that did eventually get fixed. It might take years but I'm willing to wait. If these threads are any indicator, I'm a stubborn bastard XD



    Replacing Clark in the sense that Jon's...basically doing everything that was once Clark's job. Right down to them being Supermen of the same damn city. They keep stressing how it's Jon's responsibility to fill Clark's shoes. To replace Clark. Right down to PKJ's poorly written Super sons conversation where Jon replacing Clark was all Damian could talk about. Hell there's even speculation that he's joining the Justice League once Clark leaves (oh joy. Bendis writing Jon again. That's always "fun").

    Clark may not be going anywhere in a literal sense, but everything I've seen and heard suggests that they are trying very hard for him to eventually just straight up take a backseat to his son.



    Lois is particularly disgusting for actually going with them into space and then leaving after only a few days. Like...that's almost Morrison Talia levels of not giving a fuck about your kid XD

    Could she have done anything to stop what happened? Obviously not. But that's not really the point. She abandoned her child with someone that Clark didn't even trust to be alone with him. And neither she nor Clark have really had any moment to reflect on the absolutely awful situation they're in. No they shouldn't spend every waking moment angsting over it but for fuck's sake, their straight up negligence ruined their son's childhood and cost them the chance to raise him through the most formidable years of his life. But it was mostly shrugged off as easily as Jon's super traumatizing experience on Earth-3.

    Because nobody at DC cares about the journey when it comes to him. They just want the instant gratification.
    Thank you for summing that up so well.
    A big part of my resistance at accepting adult Jon is the mess and character assassination it's taken to get him there, and the continuing out of character writing at how the aftermath has been handled. It's the same reason I didn't like shipping Jon off to the future as soon as he got home. Jon lost his childhood, spent years being tortured by with seemingly no psychological impact on him. Lois and Clark lost half of Jon's childhood. That they don't seem to care leaves the three of them feeling hollow to me.

  13. #658
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    People are putting way too much weight on General Audience of tv shows. People who watch and enjoy CW shows don't usually make the crossover into comics. Comics have rarely been altered to match tv and film. Again, in the comics, Oliver Queen isn't married to Felicity Smoak. Aquaman's parents aren't still together (and Dad's dead), and Dick Grayson isn't Robin. Jon Kent in the comics is not beholden to Jon Kent in Superman & Lois. There may be some comic tie-ins, but other than that the comic characters generally exist seperately.
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  14. #659
    Incredible Member Superboy-Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    People are putting way too much weight on General Audience of tv shows. People who watch and enjoy CW shows don't usually make the crossover into comics. Comics have rarely been altered to match tv and film. Again, in the comics, Oliver Queen isn't married to Felicity Smoak. Aquaman's parents aren't still together (and Dad's dead), and Dick Grayson isn't Robin. Jon Kent in the comics is not beholden to Jon Kent in Superman & Lois. There may be some comic tie-ins, but other than that the comic characters generally exist seperately.
    Thinking that how the public perceives a character doesn't factor into that character's experience in the comics is pretty wrong. Look at at the Guardians of the Galaxy.

    Also, Jon is boring as a 10 year old.

  15. #660
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    He hasn't particularly been better as he is now. At worst, he's just been such a blank slate that he has no character and constantly gets overshadowed by the Legion. At best, the times he shows personality, it's when PKJ (and I assume Taylor will follow suit) try to make him act like his old self.

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