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  1. #1156
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    As long as Superman: Son of Kal-El keep selling well, there is no chance of him being de-aged.

    But as an Wally West fan, i would be a hypocrite if i said to you guys to move on from Kid Jon. Maybe on day in some future relaunch of the line.
    Oh Wally and Bart are more people that I've fought for over the years. Hell I'm still fighting for Bart to be relevant again. He's one of my four sons! (If my avatar hadn't given that away)

    I am the king of not letting shit go lol
    Last edited by Blue22; 10-14-2021 at 04:00 PM.

  2. #1157

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    You and me as well, my brother. I refuse to give what true Jon Kent fans who are against to rapid age up will get what we want because the Super-Sons revival by Tomasi using that imposter who use Jon's name and likeness is big no from me. Didio, Bendis or any member of the upper management should be ashame of this mockery

    Like you can call me a pessimist but I will never give up my dream of seeing Jon Kent back before the whole BS started with Bendis. (It doesn't means that his bisexuality shouldn't be erased as they're indeed LGBT+ and Queer Coded pre-teens in real life).
    Last edited by DragonKent17; 10-14-2021 at 05:06 PM.
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  3. #1158
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Love the energy, but I'd be careful about that "true fans". Folks who like the other guy are just as valid.

  4. #1159
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    Solicits leaked a little early, here's my thoughts from the Damian thread:
    Eh, when DC kept doubling down on Jon being The Next Superman even though they clearly didn't have any plans or goals behind that that told me they didn't have any intention of bringing back kid Jon. At this point it's clear they're very committed to it even if I'm continuously puzzled as to why.

    But, if they were to do it, the best case scenario is in a year or two when they try the next creative relaunch. Even if Jon's book drops to the 20,000s they're probably going to hang onto it until the relaunch and get a run that's worth about two or three volumes worth of content. What they do with him after that I have no idea.

  5. #1160
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    Good luck to you guys, but with that S on his chest Jon can be their premier LGBTQ hero. It would be unwise to undo anything with him now. Unlike when Nightwing became ric and his sales fell dramatically they have traded one audience for another and it’s one that get media attention and praise

  6. #1161

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    I found that a terrible excuse of keeping the Teen Jon narrative going because I have friends and people within the LGBTQ+ against the aged up idea and Kid Jon could still have feelings on both genders as they are indeed LGBTQ+ kids in real life which is not hard to do but they don't want to anger the "Think of the Kids" groups, anyway.
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  7. #1162
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonKent17 View Post
    I found that a terrible excuse of keeping the Teen Jon narrative going because I have friends and people within the LGBTQ+ against the aged up idea and Kid Jon could still have feelings on both genders as they are indeed LGBTQ+ kids in real life which is not hard to do but they don't want to anger the "Think of the Kids" groups, anyway.
    ^This^

    Honestly, I feel like his coming out would have been a lot more impactful from a narrative point of view if he was still a kid when it happened.

  8. #1163
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan58 View Post
    So, quoting the actually substantial part of that solicit: "Now a ghost from Jonís past has reared its head, and to battle this evil, heíll need to reunite with Robin for one last mission into the heart of darkness."

    Jon's past, so it's not also Damian's past, so it's not something from Super-sons. Could be related to the Legion, or to Bendis' space-trip, or to Hamilton county, or just be something random, I guess. I'm betting on Hamilton purely because I think Tomasi may want to give his co-creations some spotlight again.
    I think it will be Hamilton related as well. Perhaps a final farewell to Beacon/Kathy, Boyzarro, and the like.
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  9. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    As long as Superman: Son of Kal-El keep selling well, there is no chance of him being de-aged.

    But as an Wally West fan, i would be a hypocrite if i said to you guys to move on from Kid Jon. Maybe on day in some future relaunch of the line.
    Well, thanks for the consolation. But I'd also say it doesn't look like he's selling well. We know that the Bendis Legion sales were pretty bad, and according to Comichron's estimates Son of Kal-El is selling significantly less than the previous relaunches of the main Superman title as well as Super-Sons, with only 40,000 on it's second issue. The rest of the Superman line also isn't doing very good either, so it makes me feel like the current direction, including the aged up Jon, is being rejected. Which gives me some hope.

    Now I have no idea when Jon may be de-aged, as it's clear DC is still clearly in the middle of pushing the aged up version. But I'm not giving up. After all to use your own example, the real Wally managed to return just two years after Wallace was introduced, who I'm sure most people thought precluded him from existing again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Good luck to you guys, but with that S on his chest Jon can be their premier LGBTQ hero. It would be unwise to undo anything with him now. Unlike when Nightwing became ric and his sales fell dramatically they have traded one audience for another and it’s one that get media attention and praise
    Well first of all, he'd still have the S on his chest if he was de-aged, and second him being de-aged wouldn't affect his sexual orientation, as that's something you're born being wired as. We're only asking for the age up to be reversed, not for him to be made straight. At most it would take him off the serious dating/romance table if they took him all the way back to 10-11. But he could still have schoolyard crushes and such. And I've stated I'm willing to compromise with him being de-aged to only 13-14, which would still leave them opportunities to explore his bi-status with somewhat more serious relationships. It could even lead to more powerful stories exploring what it's like for bisexual teen experiencing puberty, rather than whatever they intend to do with Jon already being an adult.

    Secondly, as for trading the audience, that's yet to be seen, and I seriously doubt it will have that exact effect. From what I've seen among the LGBT fandom that Jon already has, the Age up is likewise unpopular with them and they also want Jon de-aged. I don't see them changing their minds just because Jon has been made bi. So among the LGBT audience DC is going for, you have subtract the percentage who have already are fans of the character and already have made up their minds about the character and the age up. It is very unlikely that their will be any influx of completely new comic readers who have never read a comic before as a result this, as nothing like this has ever produced that kind of influx. Meaning that DC is realistically trying to win over the portion of LGBT comic fandom that were previously neutral towards the character. Not to mention it's illogical to think that making Jon bi will automatically cause them all to suddenly start caring about him, as they may have other reasons for their pre-existing disinterest. I've pointed out it's insulting to assume and think that LGBT fans only are interested in seeing LGBT romance/sex and prioritize it over everything else. So it's very doubtful whether it'll result in the aged up Jon getting a significant increase in support.

    And I seriously doubt Jon being de-aged would draw any negative media attention or condemnation. To the general audience currently getting worked up over it, it would fly over their heads as an example of comic book weirdness and under the radar of the general media for being too esoteric. "Superman is Bi" is an easy attention getting headline that generates emotional responses from people who don't follow comics. "Superman's Son as result of [insert plot device] has been de-aged (but is still Bi)" isn't.

  10. #1165
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Thought this was pretty cute. It's such a crime that we likely won't ever be getting these three together (at least not how I would have wanted). The first best friend and the new best friend.

    Aww this is too cute. Betting Collin would have become a friend of Jon too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Same. Not even a Tomasi written Super Sons reunion can get me on board with this. The fact that they even made a point to say they're not Super Sons anymore is just...eh. No thanks
    Reminds me a bit of what happened when YJ did Graduation to Teen Titans. It has the same feel. Though I have to hope that Tomasi does something with this that could lead to maybe recapturing some of the feeling that was lost and maybe this could lead to a kind of updated Worlds Finest take on the SuperSons situation (which sort of was what SuperSons was in some ways).

    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    I'm not. I figured DC would probably try something like this eventually. But I want Jon de-aged and it's not negotiable. It doesn't matter if they got Tomasi to write it. You're giving up too easy I think.

    They want to try and get the Super-Sons fans onboard, without actually giving us what we want, by trying to convince us that it can work with the aged up Jon. But it can't. It isn't going to have anything resembling the dynamic I liked and want back. Damian being 14 and Jon being 18 means it can't be the same and isn't going to be on top of the fact this Jon spent 7 years separated from everyone including Daiman being tortured in another universe. It's going to awkward as hell with age difference plus them either ignoring the circumstances of Jon or trying to adress it. It simply isn't going to work or be acceptable.

    They hope Tomasi can give it a veneer of legitimacy, but it doesn't in my eyes. He has to work with what they give him, and I don't want what they given him to work with.

    So, no. I'm not supporting this, just like I refuse to support anything else with an aged up Jon. I want him de-aged and the most I'm willing to compromise to is him being de-aged to Damian's age of 13-14. This is the first Super-Sons project I have to flat out reject and hope to fail, sadly, but it seems that DC is determined to try everything to get aged up Jon an audience and learn the hard way that I, and hopefully most other people, don't want aged up Jon. The ball is sadly in DC's court and they want to be stubborn about this.
    Pointing this out, when they aged up Bart, they had a very clear situation where they basically were like "Well no one likes this older Bart as the Flash so let's dramatically kill him off." And personally I"m worried about that happening if they decide to go with a second Kid (especially a second Son). It's not beyond an option for them to off Jon as dramatic reasons (See Conner and Kara, Bart and too many Teen Titans to list, I mean Alfred is dead right now and Damian died.) I don't want to see a repeat of the Conner and Tim story line, I don't want to have to go through that again.

    I agree though that they should bring him down to 13-14. (But I have a feeling that they don't want to make him too young because of the whole "Legal" aspect could lead to them having Jon and Jay having more intimate relations going forward, as it's easier for an 18 year old to have sex in a comic than for a 15 year old to.) Not to mention that there's the added factor of a minority of female readers who enjoy Boy's love stories in comic form, and some readers get freaked out at the idea of a younger teen having romantic thoughts like that.


    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    You're right, I was very easily swayed by Tomasi's name. He's been my litmus test through this entire ordeal. His leaving DC with the presumption it was because of the age up, or at least that the age up was significant contributing factor, was a major feather in our cap for de-legitimizing the age up. Like I said, I'll buy anything with his name on it, but I forgot the man is a professional writer. Most writers would write books they creatively disagree with if they were paid enough, as I'm sure Tomasi was offered something pretty sweet for him to come back, even if it is for one issue.

    I'm glad I'm not in this fight alone because seeing others just as vehemently opposed to the age up as I am reminds me exactly what we're fighting for and how we fight for it. Thank you.
    As a long time reader of Superman (Since just after he came back from being dead) at a young age, I whole heartedly agree with wanting Jon de-aged. What has me curious is that when Jenette Khan was in charge one thing she made sure of, and I know that both Peter David and the original team behind Amethyst, mentioned one of the reasons she wanted books like YJ and Amethyst was because they needed to have a market for younger readers who, when they were older, would branch up and out to the other heroes. This is why SuperSons, Robin and even YJ or something like it, was so important. You want life long readers, well give them books they can identify with. Even if you have to sell these books as full graphic novels in stores monthly or ever two months or three months, or whatever, at least you're building a base that wants to read these books.

    Ageing up Jon was not the right choice. Conner could easily take the spot as Superman for now, and Jon as Superboy. Hell, the implication pre 52 was Kon was going to be Superman in the future with the other YJ crew taking on roles their mentors had or were additional connections to their mentor in the case of Tim. What happened to all those plans? They want Legacy but you need to put in the work for that Legacy to have meaning.

  11. #1166
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    It's definitely a losing battle but it's not the only one I'm a part of (Justice for the Spider-marriage, Scarlet Witch, and Franklin Richards!) and it's not one that I mind fighting. This boy got me back into DC comics, I'mma keep fighting for him XD
    Add me to that list! All three I keep saying needs to come back. I'm also fighting for the return of Mayday Parker, and the MC2 to be recognized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan58 View Post
    So, quoting the actually substantial part of that solicit: "Now a ghost from Jonís past has reared its head, and to battle this evil, heíll need to reunite with Robin for one last mission into the heart of darkness."

    Jon's past, so it's not also Damian's past, so it's not something from Super-sons. Could be related to the Legion, or to Bendis' space-trip, or to Hamilton county, or just be something random, I guess. I'm betting on Hamilton purely because I think Tomasi may want to give his co-creations some spotlight again.
    A few things come to mind. Chris Kent (Refuse to call him Lor Zod) comes in and leads to a big fight. Earth three team comes in and wrecks Hamilton. A ghost makes me think of something he forgot or tried to forget. Oh god...I hope it's not the dead cat coming back. I'm guessing there's going to be something more here than just that. Like maybe Jon remembers certain things and they reaffirm their friendship even though they're older. I'm hoping if this does well we can get a kind of World's finest done by Tomasi that gives the two a chance to grow as characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    You're right. I thought it was going to be Kid Amazo because that was like their only villain, but it specifically says Jon's past. It also says the "heart of darkness" and I interpret that to mean Earth-3, specifically the volcano he was tortured in for seven years. Just because this is a one-shot doesn't mean it can't or won't have wider universe implications. Could this be the first step in getting back the real Jon?
    Earth three and the Volcano, Jor-El is an option too. I'd love that to be the case. Maybe a clue into how he can get de-aged at some point. Especially if they want some synergy with the animated movie or a younger Jon showing up in YJ or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Oh Wally and Bart are more people that I've fought for over the years. Hell I'm still fighting for Bart to be relevant again. He's one of my four sons! (If my avatar hadn't given that away)

    I am the king of not letting shit go lol
    Hi pleased to meet someone who gets Bart the same way I do. Bart needs more love. Shame we can't have Waid writing him for a bit again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Good luck to you guys, but with that S on his chest Jon can be their premier LGBTQ hero. It would be unwise to undo anything with him now. Unlike when Nightwing became ric and his sales fell dramatically they have traded one audience for another and itís one that get media attention and praise
    They have killed off people with the S on their chest (Kara and Clark), they have de-aged them as well (Chris Kent), they have had them come in from other times and then have to go back (Cir El). Just because Jon has the S on his chest does not mean they can't screw around with him. You can be LGBTQ+, be a hero and be a younger teen. Look at all the Manga that's out there and tell me out side of a hand full right now, how many, who are the leads at this time) are over the age of 16. I can tell you off the top of my head only Luffy right now from One Piece, and that's the only one I can think of. Most are all teens. So Dropping him to the age of 13-14 would actually work in their favor because that's where a lot of the readers are going to.

    It would be more unwise to travel the route taken, which is leave him an adult and then end up killing him (Bart), or realize aging him up was dumb, and De-age him only to screw that over due to Reboot coming along (Chris Kent). (Why yes I will never let that BS go with him either).

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonKent17 View Post
    I found that a terrible excuse of keeping the Teen Jon narrative going because I have friends and people within the LGBTQ+ against the aged up idea and Kid Jon could still have feelings on both genders as they are indeed LGBTQ+ kids in real life which is not hard to do but they don't want to anger the "Think of the Kids" groups, anyway.
    This! I'm more worried that the reason they want to keep him older is because they can then focus on sexual exploits with Jay. More younger characters exploring these issues normalizes it, and the more normal you make it the more normal it becomes to see it in stories and you can explore a hell of a lot more with a young person dealing with the trappings of love then an 18 year old who, at this point, should have gone through most of the issues of being a younger person in love.

  12. #1167
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    Well, thanks for the consolation. But I'd also say it doesn't look like he's selling well. We know that the Bendis Legion sales were pretty bad, and according to Comichron's estimates Son of Kal-El is selling significantly less than the previous relaunches of the main Superman title as well as Super-Sons, with only 40,000 on it's second issue. The rest of the Superman line also isn't doing very good either, so it makes me feel like the current direction, including the aged up Jon, is being rejected. Which gives me some hope.

    Now I have no idea when Jon may be de-aged, as it's clear DC is still clearly in the middle of pushing the aged up version. But I'm not giving up. After all to use your own example, the real Wally managed to return just two years after Wallace was introduced, who I'm sure most people thought precluded him from existing again.
    It takes a lot to push for certain characters to come back: Steph and Cassandra, were two we thought lost. Bart got aged up, killed and De-aged, they had to do the whole Sins of Youth to fix Conner's aging issues in the first place. They may have to find a way to de-age Billy because if he gets too old he's not boy who becomes Shazam. Wally's kids got aged up, de-aged slightly, then aged to about Damian's age. Chris Kent was aged to the same age as Jon is now 18, had a full on relationship with a girl from Krypton, became nightwing, was in space for a bit, I think got abused by his real father or something along those lines happened to him, and then go de-aged due to Phantom Zone. Kara died and then came back after a long while. So it's not like they can't do it, it's the question of is there enough of a push to make it happen. If more people are introduced to younger Jon, I'm betting most will want that form to come back.



    Well first of all, he'd still have the S on his chest if he was de-aged, and second him being de-aged wouldn't affect his sexual orientation, as that's something you're born being wired as. We're only asking for the age up to be reversed, not for him to be made straight. At most it would take him off the serious dating/romance table if they took him all the way back to 10-11. But he could still have schoolyard crushes and such. And I've stated I'm willing to compromise with him being de-aged to only 13-14, which would still leave them opportunities to explore his bi-status with somewhat more serious relationships. It could even lead to more powerful stories exploring what it's like for bisexual teen experiencing puberty, rather than whatever they intend to do with Jon already being an adult.
    This is a great point here. 13-14 would work in their favor. Younger readers are okay reading characters a year or two older than they are, and older readers are okay reading younger characters. And that age would be ripe for a lot of drama if one wanted to. I can point to all the weird romantic issues Tim had with Arianna, Steph and Secret. Or Kon with all the girls that he seemed to like. Play on the fact that he's Bi. Show that he has a crush on a boy and a girl at the same time and isn't sure what to do about it. It could make for an interesting situation for someone who could be going through that. What do you do if you are bi and you like two people at the same time of different genders? Play Betty Archie and Veronica with it.

    Secondly, as for trading the audience, that's yet to be seen, and I seriously doubt it will have that exact effect. From what I've seen among the LGBT fandom that Jon already has, the Age up is likewise unpopular with them and they also want Jon de-aged. I don't see them changing their minds just because Jon has been made bi. So among the LGBT audience DC is going for, you have subtract the percentage who have already are fans of the character and already have made up their minds about the character and the age up. It is very unlikely that their will be any influx of completely new comic readers who have never read a comic before as a result this, as nothing like this has ever produced that kind of influx. Meaning that DC is realistically trying to win over the portion of LGBT comic fandom that were previously neutral towards the character. Not to mention it's illogical to think that making Jon bi will automatically cause them all to suddenly start caring about him, as they may have other reasons for their pre-existing disinterest. I've pointed out it's insulting to assume and think that LGBT fans only are interested in seeing LGBT romance/sex and prioritize it over everything else. So it's very doubtful whether it'll result in the aged up Jon getting a significant increase in support.
    I know quiet a few that want him back to younger because he seemed more fun and it would be fun seeing him grow into the man that he could be, and some were more excited about how this could help younger kids accept their feelings as natural. You know, a Superboy/Superkid being bi and being a hero. It's a big thing to younger readers and means more to them in a lot of ways. You'll just get people who like the two Jon/Jay as a couple who will write their own fiction about them over reading the comics themselves. Or if they do read them, it might just be that book and if they break up, or Jay became evil, then they may drop it and just fixate on the designs of the character. It'll get a light jump in tweets and the like but over the long haul, probably not turn into ongoing sales as much as if he was close to Damian's age.

    And I seriously doubt Jon being de-aged would draw any negative media attention or condemnation. To the general audience currently getting worked up over it, it would fly over their heads as an example of comic book weirdness and under the radar of the general media for being too esoteric. "Superman is Bi" is an easy attention getting headline that generates emotional responses from people who don't follow comics. "Superman's Son as result of [insert plot device] has been de-aged (but is still Bi)" isn't.
    Opposite will happen, you'll see more praising for having the guts to have YA character dealing with being Bi in a superhero work. Not to mention the same group that's already screaming about him being Bi as a bad thing, the only addition from them you would get is, "Think of the Children" as per what happened early to Billy and Teddy back when they were introduced in Young Avengers back in the day.

  13. #1168
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    Solicits leaked a little early, here's my thoughts from the Damian thread:
    I hope they have Kathy and Hamilton County back...

    I Got a question I thought the "bring back the kid" movement was to
    A)restore the development
    And
    B)to give a long term story telling like progression to the kid like say dick Grayson or wally west?


    A)The first is restoring stuff from kid Jon's run..if tomasi himself is righting things fro, the kids past then that's done..bendis's horrible voice for the character is gone as well with age up plot device remaining only in name.

    B)American comics does not or can't have progress in storytelling.why?if it did these guys would be old geesers.progess in American comics is dead.Heck!death in American comics is dead.Progress in comics is illusion.Even the "changed" Wally west or dick Grayson ain't changing beyond a certain restriction and it took decades.kid flash became flash before I was born.The changes in comics happen in huge shifts and then stays the same or reverts back.American comics is more akin to Tom and jerry or scooby do.it's episodic and any continuity is flimsy at best.So,those that are asking for the second want a long form story telling .which American comics is clearly not,much to my dismay.the industry doesn't even do one and done short term stories.so are you guys asking for industry to change as whole?I think it would take more than Jon Kent fans..that's just me being practical.We are still using characters from the 30s and 40s.

    Otherwise,you guys don't make any sense..Is the age that important?I would understand if my nephew said he misses Jon as a kid.But people here?so,what's the point of it?
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-15-2021 at 01:08 AM.
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  14. #1169
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I hope they have Kathy and Hamilton County back...
    Would be funny if Kathy made herself look older and Jon is still smitten with her. Though I don't know if that would happen.

  15. #1170
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Wonder if Taylor would want to use Boyzarro for Jon? Bizarros are weird so aging him up to match Jon isn’t a problem.
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