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  1. #676
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    [QUOTE=Sam;5648102]We'll see what happens. I imagine even if there is initial positive buzz, I'm not sure how long it will last in this current era of DC. I mean, the new Wonder Girl got tons of buzz and her first issue sold really well, but I barely heard anything about the second one. I'm just not sure the casual readership DC is counting on will keep showing up long term.



    That is anecdotal as hell

  2. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    That is anecdotal as hell
    Not entirely. We didn't get any word of second printings as we did when Yara first showed up in Future State. The Bleeding Cool Best Seller List didn't include issue 2 the week it came out, which while not a perfect method of measurement does give a small window into what people are picking up.

    The simple reality is that most of the time comic sales are driven by speculators, who will pick up particular issues hoping they'll increase in value. Variant covers and issues with buzz can get a boost, but based on past experience these boosts don't last. Superman: Son of Kal-El may do well for its first issue. It's the debut of a new Superman and has a bunch of variant covers, but that doesn't mean those sales with last. We'll just see what happens.
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    DC: The Flash, Challenge of the Super Sons, Nightwing

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  3. #678
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Oh, we're here.


    (If you get this reference good on you)
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
    Words to live by.

  4. #679
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superboy-Prime View Post
    Top ten conspiracy theories I've seen on this site.
    I call 'em like I see 'em lmao

  5. #680
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Not entirely. We didn't get any word of second printings as we did when Yara first showed up in Future State. The Bleeding Cool Best Seller List didn't include issue 2 the week it came out, which while not a perfect method of measurement does give a small window into what people are picking up.

    The simple reality is that most of the time comic sales are driven by speculators, who will pick up particular issues hoping they'll increase in value. Variant covers and issues with buzz can get a boost, but based on past experience these boosts don't last. Superman: Son of Kal-El may do well for its first issue. It's the debut of a new Superman and has a bunch of variant covers, but that doesn't mean those sales with last. We'll just see what happens.
    For the company, comics’ real value comes from IP generation. Val Zod is an obscure character but he’s getting an HBO series with Michael B. Jordan. Aquaman barely sells but he has a billion-dollar movie. There was fan backlash when Jane Foster became Thor, but Natalie Portman is probably going to make Disney tons of money now. Currently, DC is incubating a potential new 5G Justice League since actor contracts expire. A comic doesn’t necessarily have to do gangbusters to justify its existence when the investment pays off elsewhere.
    Last edited by oneveryfineday; 07-24-2021 at 10:46 PM.

  6. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    For the company, comics’ real value comes from IP generation. Val Zod is an obscure character but he’s getting an HBO series with Michael B. Jordan. Aquaman barely sells but he has a billion-dollar movie. There was fan backlash when Jane Foster became Thor, but Natalie Portman is probably going to make Disney tons of money now. Currently, DC is incubating a potential new 5G Justice League since actor contracts expire. A comic doesn’t necessarily have to do gangbusters to justify its existence when the investment pays off elsewhere.
    Well, when it's about IPs a comic doesn't have to do much of anything. For IP purposes, Jon Kent as Superman and Yara Flor have done what they need to do with the first issue, and whether their series continue is meaningless. After all, none of the characters you referenced currently have ongoings. Hell, Val-Zod has never had his own ongoing, so technically only the creation of these characters was necessary in the first place. Basically, the IP doesn't require Superman: Son of Kal-El to continue or stand in the way of Jon being deaged.
    Currently Reading:

    DC: The Flash, Challenge of the Super Sons, Nightwing

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  7. #682
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Well, when it's about IPs a comic doesn't have to do much of anything. For IP purposes, Jon Kent as Superman and Yara Flor have done what they need to do with the first issue, and whether their series continue is meaningless. After all, none of the characters you referenced currently have ongoings. Hell, Val-Zod has never had his own ongoing, so technically only the creation of these characters was necessary in the first place. Basically, the IP doesn't require Superman: Son of Kal-El to continue or stand in the way of Jon being deaged.
    That’s kind of like saying Batman doesn’t have any purpose beyond issue #1, isn’t it? If DC never actually grew stories around Batman, we would never have gotten any of the Robins, many of the villains, the worldbuilding, any relationship with the JL, the iconic stories—basically the entire character of Batman and the Batverse and its place in the DCU as we know it today. Even minor spinoff characters can prove their value over the “parent” IP in time. King Shark is a 90s Superboy villain, and he’s even more famous than Conner now because of the Suicide Squad movie.

    So you don’t *technically* need anything beyond a handful of obscure panels to adapt something. But then you’d miss out on all that space to dynamically grow lots of new ideas.

    It’s why I’m pretty excited about Jon’s Superman series. I loved him as a kid, but back then I never expected him to occupy that large of a space in DC. He was just another satellite Super character. My notion of his success was him becoming a popular mid-tier hero on a team book or an animated movie. He was still very important, but not entirely essential.

    Now though? It’s like “duh, this is the son of Superman, he should be a walking event! He’s THE guy!” Jon’s story potential has multiplied tenfold by putting him in the direct line of the mythos, which is vast and deep (a testament to what an amazing character Clark is), and the mythos itself has opened up brand new territory by putting Jon there. The mythos, in its grandest, legendary sense. And he’s not going to bend for Damian or even for Clark—like, it’s absolutely insane to me that Clark is being moved to accommodate Jon and the writers are basically going to take a hammer to the 80-year-old mythos to build something new. That’s how much upward potential growth DC is giving Jon right now. From this vantage point I can see the potential of some deep classics here. It’s possible for him to get his equivalent of an All-Star Superman, but it’ll be something entirely his own.

    Maybe we never get to that point, that’s fine. But this setup has me more excited for Jon’s stories than anything else and I hope he’ll go far.

  8. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    That’s kind of like saying Batman doesn’t have any purpose beyond issue #1, isn’t it? If DC never actually grew stories around Batman, we would never have gotten any of the Robins, many of the villains, the worldbuilding, any relationship with the JL, the iconic stories—basically the entire character of Batman and the Batverse and its place in the DCU as we know it today. Even minor spinoff characters can prove their value over the “parent” IP in time. King Shark is a 90s Superboy villain, and he’s even more famous than Conner now because of the Suicide Squad movie.

    So you don’t *technically* need anything beyond a handful of obscure panels to adapt something. But then you’d miss out on all that space to dynamically grow lots of new ideas.
    No, it's different. Batman is the title. Jon Kent is just the person currently holding the Superman title. Developing further ideas surrounding the Superman mythos doesn't depend on Jon. You could do it with anyone, Clark, Val-Zod, Kara, Conner.

    That's clearly demonstrated with the adaptions of comics we've seen. Barry in the CW Flash series took a lot of elements from Wally's time as the Flash, while Wally in JLU had characteristics that belonged to Barry in the comics. So deaging Jon wouldn't stand in the way of any of that including the creation of new characters down the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    It’s why I’m pretty excited about Jon’s Superman series. I loved him as a kid, but back then I never expected him to occupy that large of a space in DC. He was just another satellite Super character. My notion of his success was him becoming a popular mid-tier hero on a team book or an animated movie. He was still very important, but not entirely essential.

    Now though? It’s like “duh, this is the son of Superman, he should be a walking event! He’s THE guy!” Jon’s story potential has multiplied tenfold by putting him in the direct line of the mythos, which is vast and deep (a testament to what an amazing character Clark is), and the mythos itself has opened up brand new territory by putting Jon there. The mythos, in its grandest, legendary sense. And he’s not going to bend for Damian or even for Clark—like, it’s absolutely insane to me that Clark is being moved to accommodate Jon and the writers are basically going to take a hammer to the 80-year-old mythos to build something new. That’s how much upward potential growth DC is giving Jon right now. From this vantage point I can see the potential of some deep classics here. It’s possible for him to get his equivalent of an All-Star Superman, but it’ll be something entirely his own.

    Maybe we never get to that point, that’s fine. But this setup has me more excited for Jon’s stories than anything else and I hope he’ll go far.
    I'm glad you're excited for this direction, but I very much disagree with this. I would argue Jon taking on the mantle of Superman makes him less central and less important to the development of the DC Universe going forward, because at the end of the day, he's just keeping someone else's seat warm.

    When he was a kid that was different, because Jon had carved for himself an incredibly unqiue place in the DC Universe. He was a typical well-adjusted kid. DC has been resistant to kids for decades now, because there's always been this idea that people don't want to read about kids or kids don't make for good stories. The kids in the DC Universe that existed been shuffled of to the side or killed off. Sure, you have a clear exception to the rule in Damian, but Damian isn't normal. He grew up as a trained assassin and part of his appeal is that while he's a kid, he's far from a typical one. Jon was really something different. He was completely and totally a kid, yet he wasn't shuffled off to the side, he was embraced. That's what was amazing and insane. Sure, there had been Superboys before, but Jon's way of being Superboy was very different from Clark's or Conner's. And that unique space he inhabited could have allowed DC to really develop something interesting and new.

    Instead, DC decided to age him up, making the same boring choice they always seem to make. And now, instead of being excited, I'm disinterested, because Kid Jon Kent was something I hadn't seen before. Teen Jon very much is.
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  9. #684
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    Just a few more days till kid Jon fans realize that they live in a bubble that is popping

  10. #685
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    No, it's different. Batman is the title. Jon Kent is just the person currently holding the Superman title. Developing further ideas surrounding the Superman mythos doesn't depend on Jon. You could do it with anyone, Clark, Val-Zod, Kara, Conner.

    That's clearly demonstrated with the adaptions of comics we've seen. Barry in the CW Flash series took a lot of elements from Wally's time as the Flash, while Wally in JLU had characteristics that belonged to Barry in the comics. So deaging Jon wouldn't stand in the way of any of that including the creation of new characters down the line.



    I'm glad you're excited for this direction, but I very much disagree with this. I would argue Jon taking on the mantle of Superman makes him less central and less important to the development of the DC Universe going forward, because at the end of the day, he's just keeping someone else's seat warm.

    When he was a kid that was different, because Jon had carved for himself an incredibly unqiue place in the DC Universe. He was a typical well-adjusted kid. DC has been resistant to kids for decades now, because there's always been this idea that people don't want to read about kids or kids don't make for good stories. The kids in the DC Universe that existed been shuffled of to the side or killed off. Sure, you have a clear exception to the rule in Damian, but Damian isn't normal. He grew up as a trained assassin and part of his appeal is that while he's a kid, he's far from a typical one. Jon was really something different. He was completely and totally a kid, yet he wasn't shuffled off to the side, he was embraced. That's what was amazing and insane. Sure, there had been Superboys before, but Jon's way of being Superboy was very different from Clark's or Conner's. And that unique space he inhabited could have allowed DC to really develop something interesting and new.

    Instead, DC decided to age him up, making the same boring choice they always seem to make. And now, instead of being excited, I'm disinterested, because Kid Jon Kent was something I hadn't seen before. Teen Jon very much is.
    ďWell-adjusted kidĒ sounds like a boring and unambitious character template with a limited ceiling if you ask me. Iíd rather slap that character template on some other superheroís kid. To me, Superman is an epic story with larger-than-life characters, and the kid of Clark Kent and Lois Lane should embody larger-than-life tales that couldnít be told with any other character. Jon is pretty much the prince of the superhero genre. I think thatís pretty unique. To discard that would be greater wasted potential.

    Taylor sums it up for me in the simplest words:



    Yeah, there couldnít be a better approach.

    And I like the Super Sons, but I dislike the idea that Jon HAS being the normal foil to Damianís edgy character, since it also falls into the problem of his character being being boxed to fit some preconceived dynamic, with a Bat character no less. Itís why Iím pretty interested in seeing Damian written as Jonís supporting character in SoKE, because the Super Sons dynamic will be different where Jonís development comes primary instead.

    Thinking that DC is treating Jon like a benchwarmer Superman is downplaying a lot of whatís going on right now. We know Morrison was brought in to consult on Jon. Taylor said he was looking to create a Superman for a new generation. Jon gets Clarkís book. Heís being crafted to support his own world. A lot of the status quo is getting upended. DC is legit calling Jon the 21st century Superman, effectively making Clark the nostalgia Superman (which basically caters to what broader audience wants I guess). I mean, they also called Jon the One True Superman which I have different feelings about, but the level of ambition is almost stupid. But I can appreciate ambition. The way I see it, DC is pushing Jonís ceiling at higher point than it was previously.

    And maybe I have a different love of the mythos, but being Superman is the most difficult and exciting thing anyone can imagine to be.

  11. #686
    Just Call Me Gar garazza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    Just a few more days till kid Jon fans realize that they live in a bubble that is popping
    Weren't you the guy that said SSoK would get cancelled after 12 issues, then revised it to 8?

  12. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    “Well-adjusted kid” sounds like a boring and unambitious character template with a limited ceiling if you ask me. I’d rather slap that character template on some other superhero’s kid. To me, Superman is an epic story with larger-than-life characters, and the kid of Clark Kent and Lois Lane should embody larger-than-life tales that couldn’t be told with any other character. Jon is pretty much the prince of the superhero genre. I think that’s pretty unique. To discard that would be greater wasted potential.
    Well-adjusted kid isn't the sum total of a character. It's a starting point, one that is so rare and unique within the DC Universe, that it is incredibly ambitious. Furthermore, being Clark and Lois's kid is exactly why it works. Early in the first issue Tomasi's Superman run has Jon say: My Dad is Superman. That's one of the most relatable things any character could utter. Because if you had a half-way decent parent as a kid, that's who your parents were. These amazing incredible people who doubt these marvelous things and sacrifice the world for you. That doesn't have the same impact with Bruce or Wally or Roy, because while they are all great, they're not Superman.

    Likewise, most kids feel like they can fly, they can run fast, they can move mountains, they can change the world, or invent worlds of their own. Again, that connects so beautifully to Jon as he was. Then, of course, all children also have to deal with the realizations that people are flawed, that the world is complicated, and the life is really difficult sometimes. Tomasi brought that out in Jon so well, even in something like the Super Sons/Blue Falcon crossover where he has to deal with going to a funeral. Jon was in a very unique place to experience the world around him both super and routine and to see the DC Universe through new and exciting eyes. What Jon was can't be replaced by anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    And I like the Super Sons, but I dislike the idea that Jon HAS being the normal foil to Damian’s edgy character, since it also falls into the problem of his character being being boxed to fit some preconceived dynamic, with a Bat character no less. It’s why I’m pretty interested in seeing Damian written as Jon’s supporting character in SoKE, because the Super Sons dynamic will be different where Jon’s development comes primary instead.

    Thinking that DC is treating Jon like a benchwarmer Superman is downplaying a lot of what’s going on right now. We know Morrison was brought in to consult on Jon. Taylor said he was looking to create a Superman for a new generation. Jon gets Clark’s book. He’s being crafted to support his own world. A lot of the status quo is getting upended. DC is legit calling Jon the 21st century Superman, effectively making Clark the nostalgia Superman (which basically caters to what broader audience wants I guess). I mean, they also called Jon the One True Superman which I have different feelings about, but the level of ambition is almost stupid. But I can appreciate ambition. The way I see it, DC is pushing Jon’s ceiling at higher point than it was previously.

    And maybe I have a different love of the mythos, but being Superman is the most difficult and exciting thing anyone can imagine to be.
    Jon wasn't just Damain's foil in the Rebirth era. That sells him short. If anything it was the other way around. Super Sons was primarily about Jon's growth and development. He was the one hitting the milestones and meeting new people. That's why so much of the post-Bendis Super Sons mini-series have lost some of their magic, because they aren't really diving deep into who Jon is and how he's growing.

    Regardless, of course DC would call Jon the Superman for the new generation or the Superman of the 21st century, because this is what they are trying to promote this status quo, but that doesn't make him not the benchwarmer. It's just a question of how long he'll be warming the bench for. Regardless, it's not that impressive a spot to fill, because it's a spot that already exists, not one that he's making as he goes.
    Currently Reading:

    DC: The Flash, Challenge of the Super Sons, Nightwing

    Image: Lazarus: Risen, The Old Guard, Black Magick

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  13. #688
    Fantastic Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Well-adjusted kid isn't the sum total of a character. It's a starting point, one that is so rare and unique within the DC Universe, that it is incredibly ambitious. Furthermore, being Clark and Lois's kid is exactly why it works. Early in the first issue Tomasi's Superman run has Jon say: My Dad is Superman. That's one of the most relatable things any character could utter. Because if you had a half-way decent parent as a kid, that's who your parents were. These amazing incredible people who doubt these marvelous things and sacrifice the world for you. That doesn't have the same impact with Bruce or Wally or Roy, because while they are all great, they're not Superman.

    Likewise, most kids feel like they can fly, they can run fast, they can move mountains, they can change the world, or invent worlds of their own. Again, that connects so beautifully to Jon as he was. Then, of course, all children also have to deal with the realizations that people are flawed, that the world is complicated, and the life is really difficult sometimes. Tomasi brought that out in Jon so well, even in something like the Super Sons/Blue Falcon crossover where he has to deal with going to a funeral. Jon was in a very unique place to experience the world around him both super and routine and to see the DC Universe through new and exciting eyes. What Jon was can't be replaced by anyone else.



    Jon wasn't just Damain's foil in the Rebirth era. That sells him short. If anything it was the other way around. Super Sons was primarily about Jon's growth and development. He was the one hitting the milestones and meeting new people. That's why so much of the post-Bendis Super Sons mini-series have lost some of their magic, because they aren't really diving deep into who Jon is and how he's growing.

    Regardless, of course DC would call Jon the Superman for the new generation or the Superman of the 21st century, because this is what they are trying to promote this status quo, but that doesn't make him not the benchwarmer. It's just a question of how long he'll be warming the bench for. Regardless, it's not that impressive a spot to fill, because it's a spot that already exists, not one that he's making as he goes.
    I think Jon still has the same qualities and perspective as the son of Superman that made him interesting in Rebirth, just magnified because of the size of his role. That the Lois-influenced side of his character will be emphasized with a possible anti-Lois Lane villain intrigues me too.

    I should probably add that itís cool if you prefer kid Jon and I do like him too, but the way older Jon gets dunked on got to me and I vented lol. At the end of the day itís a matter of preference of what kind of stories we want to see, and I sympathize with anyone feeling like DC left them with unfulfilled promises.

    So yeah, good discussion, but Iím going be going solely focusing with the stuff I enjoy about SoKE with it coming out soon. Cheers.

  14. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    I think Jon still has the same qualities and perspective as the son of Superman that made him interesting in Rebirth, just magnified because of the size of his role. That the Lois-influenced side of his character will be emphasized with a possible anti-Lois Lane villain intrigues me too.

    I should probably add that it’s cool if you prefer kid Jon and I do like him too, but the way older Jon gets dunked on got to me and I vented lol. At the end of the day it’s a matter of preference of what kind of stories we want to see, and I sympathize with anyone feeling like DC left them with unfulfilled promises.

    So yeah, good discussion, but I’m going be going solely focusing with the stuff I enjoy about SoKE with it coming out soon. Cheers.
    The problem is it goes beyond matter of preference. One type of story (optimistic young adult superhero making their way in a corrupt world) will always be told by DC. There are other ongoings currently with that type of character. I'm reading Nightwing for that. The type of story Kid Jon could have provided was and is unique in the DC Universe. DC isn't publishing anything like that now, and that's part of what losing Jon as kid has taken away.

    Either way, I completely understand the need to vent (clearly), however, I would try my best, if I were you, not to let other people dunking on older Jon get to you. It's not going to stop. I say this as someone who prefers the Johns Conner to the Kesel Conner. When you alter a character so completely, there will always be people who are pissed off about it. For your own mental sanity, don't engage. It's just easier.
    Currently Reading:

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  15. #690
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    Weren't you the guy that said SSoK would get cancelled after 12 issues, then revised it to 8?
    I was just thinking that. This is the biggest 180 I've ever seen XD

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    The problem is it goes beyond matter of preference. One type of story (optimistic young adult superhero making their way in a corrupt world) will always be told by DC. There are other ongoings currently with that type of character. I'm reading Nightwing for that. The type of story Kid Jon could have provided was and is unique in the DC Universe. DC isn't publishing anything like that now, and that's part of what losing Jon as kid has taken away.

    Either way, I completely understand the need to vent (clearly), however, I would try my best, if I were you, not to let other people dunking on older Jon get to you. It's not going to stop. I say this as someone who prefers the Johns Conner to the Kesel Conner. When you alter a character so completely, there will always be people who are pissed off about it. For your own mental sanity, don't engage. It's just easier.
    ^This. Every part of this.

    I've said it a million times already but it merits repeating, because I know how over the top that I can be about this. I would NEVER try to discourage someone from enjoying the imposter. He seems like a really swell guy and he's finally being handled by a writer who knows what the fuck he's doing with him. That said, in DC's rush to make him into this person who, yes, does still have qualities of the older Jon, they've taken away everything I looked forward to seeing from the Jon and now he doesn't have anything that I couldn't already find anywhere else, from more interesting characters.
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-25-2021 at 04:08 PM.

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