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  1. #601
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    The uniqueness of a 17 superman is still completely lost on me when you've had Conner right there the whole time, but thats just me.
    The uniqueness is that Conner isn't Superman. The idea isn't that Jon is a 17 year old who has the powers of Superman, but rather it's the fact that he's a 17 year old who has the powers AND title of Superman, and that makes a world of difference that I don't think can be understated. He's The Guy...and he's 17. He's The Guy that will be looked at to punch Darkseid in the face when everyone else is down...and he's 17. That's a pretty big deal. He's Superman at 17 standing on equal footing with Batman and the rest of the JL. What he says in the room and does in the world has the weight of SUPERMAN behind it, and how that clashing with the fact that he's 17 and a freshmen in college is fascinating.

    That's just not something Conner replicates as Superboy at 17. Like, he can be on the Suicide Squad right now hanging out with questionable people, and it just doesn't mean the same thing if Clark or Jon as Superman were to do that.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  2. #602
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    Sam Wilson is still captain America even after Steve came back

    X-23 is still wolverine

    Miss marvel is still marvel


    People are acting like his father coming back to earth is a death sentence, which over the past few days I realized really isn’t

    At worst...he becomes a little younger and stays Superboy

    At best...he basically becomes Grant Morrison’s action comics Superman
    Last edited by kryptonian; 07-21-2021 at 01:43 PM.

  3. #603
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryptonian View Post
    Sam Wilson is still captain America even after Steve came back

    X-23 is still wolverine

    Miss marvel is still marvel


    People are acting like his father coming back to earth is a death sentence, which over the past few days I realized really isn’t

    At worst...he becomes a little younger and stays Superboy

    At best...he basically becomes new 52 Superman
    I'm pretty firmly in the camp that he could stay Superman. Conceptually speaking, he has more in common with Miles than he does with say Sam Wilson or anyone who went from one identity to a legacy name. I mean this in the sense that he was conceptualized as The Next Superman and being Superboy was more of "well, he has to be called something in the meantime", and the moved heaven and earth to make sure he was given the room to be Superboy, and it was only when they were gearing up to make him Superman that they brought the pervious Superboy back.

    At the very worst I think they change his name to "Superman Junior" or "Superman Secondus" thus allowing for the shortened "Junior" or "Secondus" if they bring Clark back in his traditional role.

    The true test remains the outside media push. He's creeping in at multiple spots, and there's certainly more spots for him to come in. On top of that older Superman is now the norm. Outside of the singular My Adventures With Superman cartoon coming out (that even itself is ultimately just the backstory to classic older Clark rather than a new take on young Superman stuff), Clark is no younger than 40 in basically everything running right now, and that's what DC/WB want out of him, but they still clearly need/want a young Superman type.

    ________

    My hope is that Jon's next outside media appearance is in Injustice 3. Maybe somehow the baby was saved, has been growing up elsewhere (31st century maybe?), and is now being returned to his normal time so he can return the honor and trust to the Superman name? Like, in this time Kara's become Superwoman, yes, but similar to how it's always clear you'll need a Superman in the movies, you'll certainly need one in the game that started with him too, and since Clark is now completely depowered and in the Phantom Zone, Jon may be it? Even have Batman mistrust Jon because he's worried the apple didn't fall far from the tree, but ultimately form a father/son thing to contrast how Clark and Damian had one in the last two games. Keep the tension high on if Jon will turn or not, but then ultimately show he's better than the man his father was.

    Then Injustice 4 (or even this game) find a way to bring Clark back (maybe now with the powers of Darkseid rather than Kryptonian powers?) and go Invincible vs Omni Man on us.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  4. #604
    Spectacular Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    And I know there's a very real market for a young, goofy, and a little immature Superman...but it's just a hard sell for diehards when it's Clark. Look at American Alien. Outside of the person who wrote it, it's maybe the most successful and reboot of the character in decades, but it's biggest achievements was that it was mainly popular with people that didn't read comics or Superman. And the diehards who did like it would take comfort in being able to wave it off as an Elseworld. I used to lend it out to a bunch of my friends who would clown me for liking Superman, and they'd come back and go "oh snap, is he like this all the time? I love this guy!" But the answer would have to be no, and I'd try to get across how it's a remixing of aspects that are present in the normal take, but their eyes would glaze over, and they'd go "so he's no chill like this?"

    I want Superman: Son of Kal-El to be the book that I lend out to friends, and when they ask "so is he always like this" I can go "yeah, pretty much".
    Exactly, I donít want this book to necessarily be for us die-hard Superman fans or even Jon Kent fans, but for the people who donít normally read Superman comics. Taylor has broad appeal to the general audience, especially with his Injustice and DCeased series. Heís just that good at selling a character.

    I donít like making sales predictionsóIím content with enjoying things as long as I can have themóand I donít mean to come across as a biased stan, but with Taylorís Nightwing climbing up the charts, Invincible popularizing the son of Superman concept, the Injustice movie coming out in the near future (was just reminded that was coming out), the fact that the movie is adapting elements from the comics, and that SoKE is being written as the anti-Injustice story, it feels like the stars have aligned to make this book really, really relevant to modern audiences right now. Whether or not the series actually capitalizes on it or not is one thing, but the ingredients for it to be part of the pop culture conversation are right! There! I donít understand how anyone can look at the superhero landscape right now and deem the concept of Jon as Superman dead on arrival.

    And no, it wonít be because people hate teen Jon. Like Injustice or DCeased or Nightwing, itís not for us fussy folks. The people Taylor are bringing in probably have never read kid Jon stories nor even care that Clark is somewhere else. Iím still not saying that this series will be successful. Just that itís not automatically a failure. Iím glad 5G failed for Jon because the timing and creative team right now couldnít be better.

    And if weíre talking about the stuff that Jon as a character can do and Clark canítÖwell, Superman and the Authority is another response to the popular authoritarian Superman takes out there, but I donít think it ticks enough boxes to reach that critical mass point of conversation. Jon has that appealing blend of youthfulness and relevance and can work as an easy jumping on point that Clark canít at the moment.

    God I swear Iím a Superman fan. But I really like the idea of something new and I think the audience is ready for it.

    Feel free to dunk on me if Iím wrong in a few months and when none of this lives up to my expectations XD

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Exactly, I don’t want this book to necessarily be for us die-hard Superman fans or even Jon Kent fans, but for the people who don’t normally read Superman comics. Taylor has broad appeal to the general audience, especially with his Injustice and DCeased series. He’s just that good at selling a character.

    I don’t like making sales predictions—I’m content with enjoying things as long as I can have them—and I don’t mean to come across as a biased stan, but with Taylor’s Nightwing climbing up the charts, Invincible popularizing the son of Superman concept, the Injustice movie coming out in the near future (was just reminded that was coming out), the fact that the movie is adapting elements from the comics, and that SoKE is being written as the anti-Injustice story, it feels like the stars have aligned to make this book really, really relevant to modern audiences right now. D
    I don't want to be "that guy", but the book won't relevant to modern audiences because NO superhero book is relevant to modern audiences. Not even Superman and the Authority, which is probably the best-reviewed Super-book right now. If you want to find something relevant to modern audiences (I guess that you were talking about occasional readers too), maybe you should check mangas.
    I am probably stating the obvious, but the people who are going to read book are the exact the same people who have been reading regular Superman books for the last 15, 20 years maybe. This entire debate about Superman's relevance, or Jon's relevance, etc. is just within the circle of the "old" readers, not the occasional ones. The concept of Jon Superman will last as long as the restricted circle of old readers is willing to pay for it.
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    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

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  6. #606
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Exactly, I don’t want this book to necessarily be for us die-hard Superman fans or even Jon Kent fans, but for the people who don’t normally read Superman comics. Taylor has broad appeal to the general audience, especially with his Injustice and DCeased series. He’s just that good at selling a character.

    I don’t like making sales predictions—I’m content with enjoying things as long as I can have them—and I don’t mean to come across as a biased stan, but with Taylor’s Nightwing climbing up the charts, Invincible popularizing the son of Superman concept, the Injustice movie coming out in the near future (was just reminded that was coming out), the fact that the movie is adapting elements from the comics, and that SoKE is being written as the anti-Injustice story, it feels like the stars have aligned to make this book really, really relevant to modern audiences right now. Whether or not the series actually capitalizes on it or not is one thing, but the ingredients for it to be part of the pop culture conversation are right! There! I don’t understand how anyone can look at the superhero landscape right now and deem the concept of Jon as Superman dead on arrival.

    And no, it won’t be because people hate teen Jon. Like Injustice or DCeased or Nightwing, it’s not for us fussy folks. The people Taylor are bringing in probably have never read kid Jon stories nor even care that Clark is somewhere else. I’m still not saying that this series will be successful. Just that it’s not automatically a failure. I’m glad 5G failed for Jon because the timing and creative team right now couldn’t be better.

    And if we’re talking about the stuff that Jon as a character can do and Clark can’t…well, Superman and the Authority is another response to the popular authoritarian Superman takes out there, but I don’t think it ticks enough boxes to reach that critical mass point of conversation. Jon has that appealing blend of youthfulness and relevance and can work as an easy jumping on point that Clark can’t at the moment.

    God I swear I’m a Superman fan. But I really like the idea of something new and I think the audience is ready for it.

    Feel free to dunk on me if I’m wrong in a few months and when none of this lives up to my expectations XD
    I agree with you on all points!

    It's not even remotely for me or us die-hards, and THAT'S why you get Taylor, and that's what I want. It just so happens that this is really hitting me in just the right way that I happen to be a die-hard that's super into it. Same as you I'm a Superman fan-- a Clark fan, but I think it's also okay to be getting to the point where you can say Clark is The Guy, but Jon is still Superman. Like Taylor said in his interview, he's looking to make a Superman for a new generation, and, God help me, he may have just stumbled upon MY Superman while doing so, and I'm no longer going to be shy about that possiblity.

    We'll see how I feel down the road, but stuff like American Alien awakened something in me that can't go back in its bottle, and Clark isn't allowed to be the guy that can give me that, but Jon seems to be, and because of that and the affection I already have for the character and idea, I'm drawn to this whole thing like a moth to a flame.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  7. #607
    Spectacular Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    I don't want to be "that guy", but the book won't relevant to modern audiences because NO superhero book is relevant to modern audiences. Not even Superman and the Authority, which is probably the best-reviewed Super-book right now. If you want to find something relevant to modern audiences (I guess that you were talking about occasional readers too), maybe you should check mangas.
    I am probably stating the obvious, but the people who are going to read book are the exact the same people who have been reading regular Superman books for the last 15, 20 years maybe. This entire debate about Superman's relevance, or Jon's relevance, etc. is just within the circle of the "old" readers, not the occasional ones. The concept of Jon Superman will last as long as the restricted circle of old readers is willing to pay for it.
    Sure, I never said that Jon was going to outsell manga (and yes, Iíve been reading manga for a long time lol), but that he could sell in the superhero landscape where Injustice and Invincible and Taylorís Nightwing are popular right now. And I should probably add Iím also talking about Jon within the franchise in general, since book is basically going to be the template for the Jon they use in outside media where it counts.

    Taylor DOES cater outside the old circle of readers, much to the consternation of the posters here lol. You wonít see anybody here say they like Injustice but broader culture says otherwise.

    Iím still not saying that this book will succeed, because only time will tell us that. Iím here for as long as the ride lasts. Only that I wouldnít write it off so quickly because there are a lot things going for it.

  8. #608
    Spectacular Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superlad93 View Post
    i agree with you on all points!

    It's not even remotely for me or us die-hards, and that's why you get taylor, and that's what i want. It just so happens that this is really hitting me in just the right way that i happen to be a die-hard that's super into it. Same as you i'm a superman fan-- a clark fan, but i think it's also okay to be getting to the point where you can say clark is the guy, but jon is still superman. Like taylor said in his interview, he's looking to make a superman for a new generation, and, god help me, he may have just stumbled upon my superman while doing so, and i'm no longer going to be shy about that possiblity.

    we'll see how i feel down the road, but stuff like american alien awakened something in me that can't go back in its bottle, and clark isn't allowed to be the guy that can give me that, but jon seems to be, and because of that and the affection i already have for the character and idea, i'm drawn to this whole thing like a moth to a flame.
    This!!! I love Clark obviously, but Jon has been really resonating with me of late. I see so much potential for him, he just needs that push outwards. Only less than a week left for the new series
    Last edited by oneveryfineday; 07-21-2021 at 03:20 PM.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Both the concept and the execution behind all this is a big dud for me. The uniqueness of a 17 superman is still completely lost on me when you've had Conner right there the whole time, but thats just me. And if the point was to avoid the fan backlash you'd supposedly get from writing a younger Clark, I'd say they didn't succeed as well as they'd hope, at least so far.
    Yeah, Conner as Superman would have been way more interesting, especially because of the Jon factor. If you had Conner taking on the Superman role, while 10-year Jon was right there as the heir apparent, Conner would be in a strange position where he's talking on a role in an essentially temporary capacity. How can he be Superman if the son of Superman is there to take over his father's title when he gets older. When Conner was younger, he saw himself as the replacement Superman, but now that's he older, now that he knows about Lex's role in his creation, now that he isn't the only candidate, now that he understands the weight of the role, him in that position would be fascinating.

    Too continuity heavy most likely for what DC is going for, but infinitely more interesting, if for no other reason than Conner would have a natural journey to getting there, whereas Jon's journey has been anything but natural.
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  10. #610
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Yeah, Conner as Superman would have been way more interesting, especially because of the Jon factor. If you had Conner taking on the Superman role, while 10-year Jon was right there as the heir apparent, Conner would be in a strange position where he's talking on a role in an essentially temporary capacity. How can he be Superman if the son of Superman is there to take over his father's title when he gets older. When Conner was younger, he saw himself as the replacement Superman, but now that's he older, now that he knows about Lex's role in his creation, now that he isn't the only candidate, now that he understands the weight of the role, him in that position would be fascinating.

    Too continuity heavy most likely for what DC is going for, but infinitely more interesting, if for no other reason than Conner would have a natural journey to getting there, whereas Jon's journey has been anything but natural.
    Uggggh stop making me long for things that can't happen anymore. A Conner book with real Jon as his partner? That would have been amazing! A hell of a lot better than what either of them are doing now -____-

    Honestly it kinda sounds like a reverse of Morrison's Batman and Robin, and now I'm here for it even more. You got the wheels turning in my head now about everything that could have been lol
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-21-2021 at 04:48 PM.

  11. #611
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    If you think that Conner is going to replace Jon...you are in for a rude awakening

    Conner has too many degrees of separation from Superman to be pitched easily in an elevator


    If anything...Jon has and will continue to overshadow Conner

  12. #612
    Incredible Member witchboy's Avatar
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    A Conner and Jon team up book sounds like a lot of fun.

  13. #613
    Extraordinary Member Jon11's Avatar
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    Speaking of a Jon/Kon team-up, one of my fave fan pitches ever is this one by Julia Witmyer:



    I just wanted to share with you some character designs of Conor and Jon that I started a couple days ago. I was thinking about how awesome it would be it would be if Connor and Jon finally met and went on there own adventure together. I’d call that book Superboys and basically the plot would be about how the two have to find a way back to Earth in order to reunite Jon with his parents. Also the two end up bonding as brothers on the journey home.
    Last edited by Jon11; 07-21-2021 at 08:10 PM.
    "Keep flying; keep fighting; keep loving; keep smiling. You wonít always be right, but you donít have to be. Be just. Be fair. Be good. Be brave. Be Superman." - Bryan Q. Miller.

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  14. #614
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon11 View Post
    Speaking of a Jon/Kon team-up, one of my fave fan pitches ever is this one by Julia Witmyer:

    Oh my God. I love that! Not the premise I would have gone with for a Conner/Jon book. But still. I reeeeeally like this idea.

  15. #615
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon11 View Post
    Speaking of a Jon/Kon team-up, one of my fave fan pitches ever is this one by Julia Witmyer:

    See this? This is the kind of stuff we missed out on. Its why I hate the artificial age up so much. Simple, yet fun stories that could have been, were torn away to make another teen hero. Stories where we actually see Jon grow and interact with the wider world, including the extended Super Family, and not merely told it in some throwaway line or 2 panel flashback from a time that is literally impossible for it to have happened (looking at you, Earth 3).

    Honestly? Hand the reigns of "Superman" to Conner, or hell, Kara, whose been around since forever, and have her take the lead as the Super. And have Jon act as her "Robin", so to speak. Bonding time between them, which was yet ANOTHER thing we never got to see, barring a few panels back when Tomasi and Gleason still wrote Superman and Action.

    "Well, fake Jon and Kara/Conner-"
    Stop. No. As far as I'm concerned, fake Jon is yet one more remnant of the DiDio/Bendis era that was well on its way to G5, and ruining a lot of good characters (including Damian, "Prof. X and Magneto" my ass, I don't trust DC to handle something that walks that kind of line).

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