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  1. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    A lot of Clark goes against the way of Almerac, but Max is into him even after she realizes he's not a warlord. That alone tells me there are some qualities and beliefs that Maxima probably represses that conflict with what Almerac believes. If not, she'd lose interest in Superman pretty quick. Something about him still interests her, but I don't think she'd ever admit it if she ever came to realize it to begin with.
    Maybe, but there was something very Nietzschean about Maxima when she was first introduced. She is certainly repressing a lot of things when she breaks with the tradition of her people by refusing to choose other warlord suitors picked out for her. I'm just pointing out that Maxima may simply recognize instinctively that mercy is the privilege of the most powerful man when she watches Superman disobey Mongul and refuse to kill Draaga. So, that might explain why someone who is at the apex of an intergalactic empire might not be interested in someone like Zod. Superman on the other hand has a lot of power, and he's not really trying so hard per se.

    Take her appearance in JLQ 13 about 5 years after her introduction; Maxima stopped Ultraa from killing Captain Atom in her name, saying that a warrior doesn't kill a downed opponent. Wounded, Ultraa argued that a warrior wins, but Maxima explained that Earth has taught her so much about unselfishness and mercy. Again, I think you could take her words at face value, or perhaps she's still inventing explanations that hide or deny her true motivations. She's complicated.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eyeswithoutaface View Post
    Maybe, but there was something very Nietzschean about Maxima when she was first introduced. She is certainly repressing a lot of things when she breaks with the tradition of her people by refusing to choose other warlord suitors picked out for her. I'm just pointing out that Maxima may simply recognize instinctively that mercy is the privilege of the most powerful man when she watches Superman disobey Mongul and refuse to kill Draaga. So, that might explain why someone who is at the apex of an intergalactic empire might not be interested in someone like Zod. Superman on the other hand has a lot of power, and he's not really trying so hard per se.

    Take her appearance in JLQ 13 about 5 years after her introduction; Maxima stopped Ultraa from killing Captain Atom in her name, saying that a warrior doesn't kill a downed opponent. Wounded, Ultraa argued that a warrior wins, but Maxima explained that Earth has taught her so much about unselfishness and mercy. Again, I think you could take her words at face value, or perhaps she's still inventing explanations that hide or deny her true motivations. She's complicated.
    Earth and Superman definitely infected Maxima. I agree, she's complicated and that's why I love that character so much.

    I don't think she'd every fully renounce some of Almerac's twisted ways. With her, it's about progress rather than an end goal.

    She'll always be a bit petty, ruthless and devoted to her people no matter how much you try and make her a selfless hero.

  3. #258
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think there's a lot of layers to Maxima's thing with Clark. On the surface, just the pure chemical reaction, she's attracted to him; he's strong as hell and good looking and from her point of view, exotic and probably more than a little taboo. And looking deeper I think Clark represents a different path for Almerac in Maxima's mind. Not a full blown 180 change from the old ways, but a method of ruling that doesn't require so much effort to just remain in your position.

    Memory might be off here, but Almeraci culture ensures that the noble families (and everyone else) are always scheming, plotting, and trying to climb the social ladder by pulling others down. Makes the throne pretty hard to hold onto, makes life hard to live. But those are the values that prove one's strength and worthiness right? How else can you know if your empress deserves the throne than by trying to take her off it?

    Except here's this Kryptonian from the ass end of nowhere, who is merciful and kind and selfless, and *still* the strongest son of a bitch you're ever gonna meet; a guy who has the strength to never bow down before anyone but who makes the choice to bend his knee in service of those less powerful....and the universe adores him for it. It goes against everything Maxima was raised to believe, but the proof that it works is right in front of her and he's giving Mongol, the warlord of warlords, the middle finger. How can a man be so weak but so powerful at the same time? Exotic, right?

    I think Max likely questioned her people's customs before discovering Clark. Maybe only subconsciously and she'd never voice these thoughts for fear of it making her look weak if she's truly aware of them. How much more efficient and powerful could the empire be, if Maxima didn't have to spend so much of her time keeping the jackals at bay? Almerac is an empire in decline, and following the tried and true customs and traditions isn't getting them anywhere, which is why she's so willing to buck the suitor-warlords presented to her and why she's so hell-bent on figuring out what makes earth love and follow Superman.

    He's new blood. Not just another Almeraci but someone with different genetic potential to add to the royal line. His ideas aren't necessarily the best, Max would never be so selfless as Clark and if she was, where would that martyrdom spirit leave Almerac without her to guide it? But his people love him, and he's willing to bend. A consort who isn't trying to kill her in her sleep but who has the strength to watch her back is probably the kind of whimsy young Almeraci girls read about in their scandalous romance novels, only to soon realize it's a fairy tale. And if he gets the peasants on her side too? That's hawt.

    I think there's a lot of reasons Max zero'd in on Clark, and a lot of it is rationalizing a irrational attraction to someone utterly strange and compelling. A Zone criminal like Zod or Xa-Du? She'd never be able to trust them. They're too ambitious, too much like Max herself and all of Almeraci culture. Sure, Zod or someone would make for the perfect traditional consort, but that's boring and Max can point to the empire's decline as an excuse to forgo such a union. Clark's got them good genes, so the breeding program is happy and their heir will be uber powerful. He's got weird, different ideas that, somehow, inspire loyalty so Max can say she's trying to do right by her people and build a stronger Almerac. He scares despots like Brainiac and Mongol, and will help ensure the empire's security.

    I think that's the real crux of it; Max is just straight up attracted to the guy (and he's a beefcake so who can blame her?) but she can justify her thirst with sound, cold politics and use the empire's current status as an excuse to pick such a unusual consort. And all of that just feeds into itself, building up Max's desire. And when he tells her "no"? That's a word Maxima probably doesn't hear often, and we always want what we can't have and she just kinda falls into this spiral of obsession.

    And after spending time on earth with the League (originally just to win Clark over), she starts to see what he sees, starts to understand, if not fully agree, with the way we view leadership. Which probably just makes her want him more, unlocking that one layer of Clark makes her hungry to figure out the rest of this crazy, exotic, beautiful son of a bitch who proves a whole empire's worth of culture and tradition wrong.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  4. #259
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think there's a lot of layers to Maxima's thing with Clark. On the surface, just the pure chemical reaction, she's attracted to him; he's strong as hell and good looking and from her point of view, exotic and probably more than a little taboo. And looking deeper I think Clark represents a different path for Almerac in Maxima's mind. Not a full blown 180 change from the old ways, but a method of ruling that doesn't require so much effort to just remain in your position.

    Memory might be off here, but Almeraci culture ensures that the noble families (and everyone else) are always scheming, plotting, and trying to climb the social ladder by pulling others down. Makes the throne pretty hard to hold onto, makes life hard to live. But those are the values that prove one's strength and worthiness right? How else can you know if your empress deserves the throne than by trying to take her off it?

    Except here's this Kryptonian from the ass end of nowhere, who is merciful and kind and selfless, and *still* the strongest son of a bitch you're ever gonna meet; a guy who has the strength to never bow down before anyone but who makes the choice to bend his knee in service of those less powerful....and the universe adores him for it. It goes against everything Maxima was raised to believe, but the proof that it works is right in front of her and he's giving Mongol, the warlord of warlords, the middle finger. How can a man be so weak but so powerful at the same time? Exotic, right?

    I think Max likely questioned her people's customs before discovering Clark. Maybe only subconsciously and she'd never voice these thoughts for fear of it making her look weak if she's truly aware of them. How much more efficient and powerful could the empire be, if Maxima didn't have to spend so much of her time keeping the jackals at bay? Almerac is an empire in decline, and following the tried and true customs and traditions isn't getting them anywhere, which is why she's so willing to buck the suitor-warlords presented to her and why she's so hell-bent on figuring out what makes earth love and follow Superman.

    He's new blood. Not just another Almeraci but someone with different genetic potential to add to the royal line. His ideas aren't necessarily the best, Max would never be so selfless as Clark and if she was, where would that martyrdom spirit leave Almerac without her to guide it? But his people love him, and he's willing to bend. A consort who isn't trying to kill her in her sleep but who has the strength to watch her back is probably the kind of whimsy young Almeraci girls read about in their scandalous romance novels, only to soon realize it's a fairy tale. And if he gets the peasants on her side too? That's hawt.

    I think there's a lot of reasons Max zero'd in on Clark, and a lot of it is rationalizing a irrational attraction to someone utterly strange and compelling. A Zone criminal like Zod or Xa-Du? She'd never be able to trust them. They're too ambitious, too much like Max herself and all of Almeraci culture. Sure, Zod or someone would make for the perfect traditional consort, but that's boring and Max can point to the empire's decline as an excuse to forgo such a union. Clark's got them good genes, so the breeding program is happy and their heir will be uber powerful. He's got weird, different ideas that, somehow, inspire loyalty so Max can say she's trying to do right by her people and build a stronger Almerac. He scares despots like Brainiac and Mongol, and will help ensure the empire's security.

    I think that's the real crux of it; Max is just straight up attracted to the guy (and he's a beefcake so who can blame her?) but she can justify her thirst with sound, cold politics and use the empire's current status as an excuse to pick such a unusual consort. And all of that just feeds into itself, building up Max's desire. And when he tells her "no"? That's a word Maxima probably doesn't hear often, and we always want what we can't have and she just kinda falls into this spiral of obsession.

    And after spending time on earth with the League (originally just to win Clark over), she starts to see what he sees, starts to understand, if not fully agree, with the way we view leadership. Which probably just makes her want him more, unlocking that one layer of Clark makes her hungry to figure out the rest of this crazy, exotic, beautiful son of a bitch who proves a whole empire's worth of culture and tradition wrong.
    Those are more or less my thoughts as well, though I differ a bit with respect to Maxima questioning the customs of her people prior to meeting Superman who exists almost as if to defy them.

    I think her rigid, fanatical belief in those ideals is why the culture shock is so captivating. Having her stumble on those thoughts prior would allow her to view and understand Clark more clearly and that doesn't really conflate well with how much of a shock he needs to be.


    Moreover, in as cutthroat a society as Almerac, any indecision or waffling would lead to a short reign and by all accounts she has it in a vice grip. For good or ill, Maxima would have to be resolute and believe entirely in their ways to be the character we're presented with.

    Else you get New 52 Max. Classic Max is so determined and singular in her focus that once she discovers the thread of doubt, she'd pull on that string until the entire conceptual ball unraveled and we know that Almeracian customs are built on a deck of cards.

    I just don't see a Maxima who has questioned their ways without being ousted for no longer representating Almerac properly or grinding those customs under heel and bending them to her will.

  5. #260
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Those are more or less my thoughts as well, though I differ a bit with respect to Maxima questioning the customs of her people prior to meeting Superman who exists almost as if to defy them.

    I think her rigid, fanatical belief in those ideals is why the culture shock is so captivating. Having her stumble on those thoughts prior would allow her to view and understand Clark more clearly and that doesn't really conflate well with how much of a shock he needs to be.
    Ah, true. Excellent point. But I do think there has to be some kind of impulse that drives Max to reject the warlord-suitors and traditions of the royal families and pursue someone like Clark. We know Almerac was/is in decline, and Max is smart enough to recognize that and want to find a solution. She believes in Almerac's moral/cultural superiority but that doesn't mean she doesn't recognize that some part of it has failed them. I don't think she was looking for "love, Kant, and democracy" or anything, not even subconsciously, but was desperate for new blood and perspectives that would bring the empire back to glory.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #261
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ah, true. Excellent point. But I do think there has to be some kind of impulse that drives Max to reject the warlord-suitors and traditions of the royal families and pursue someone like Clark. We know Almerac was/is in decline, and Max is smart enough to recognize that and want to find a solution. She believes in Almerac's moral/cultural superiority but that doesn't mean she doesn't recognize that some part of it has failed them. I don't think she was looking for "love, Kant, and democracy" or anything, not even subconsciously, but was desperate for new blood and perspectives that would bring the empire back to glory.
    I'm actually currently mulling around their first interactions (for a couple projects) and why she got, well, corrupted by his good qualities (as would be perceived by Almerac's nobles) and I think part of it is altruism is just not something she understands. Their culture seems pretty transactional emotionally.

    Sidebar, I've taken to calling New 52 Maxima "Maxima, the younger" and in futures where OG Max lives after being deposed or Maxima, the younger takes over "Maxima, the former."

    It's a title, right? I feel like it's pretty clear by the person who simply IS Maxima who is in charge and everyone else requires a modifier. It feels natural for a culture with a title that's inherited like a name.

    EDIT: Also, was it ever "the empire?" I know that in my take, she's the Empress of a multi-planet empire of Almerac (the capital of which is also a planet of the same name), but I could have sworn the comics had Almerac be a planet with her as its reigning monarch. Am I losing my mind?
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-11-2021 at 11:45 PM.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I'm actually currently mulling around their first interactions (for a couple projects) and why she got, well, corrupted by his good qualities (as would be perceived by Almerac's nobles) and I think part of it is altruism is just not something she understands. Their culture seems pretty transactional emotionally.

    Sidebar, I've taken to calling New 52 Maxima "Maxima, the younger" and in futures where OG Max lives after being deposed or Maxima, the younger takes over "Maxima, the former."

    It's a title, right? I feel like it's pretty clear by the person who simply IS Maxima who is in charge and everyone else requires a modifier. It feels natural for a culture with a title that's inherited like a name.
    Do to Maxima what was done with Mongul? If that would had done before, would had been clever. But now, it would see as a repeated trope.
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  8. #263
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    Do to Maxima what was done with Mongul? If that would had done before, would had been clever. But now, it would see as a repeated trope.
    I could swear I've seen her name also used as a position before, certainly that felt the implication with "the real Maxima" from Orlando's run. As for repeating tropes, aren't superheroes just tropes cobbled together in bright colors slinging tropes at each other to see who can sell the most lunchboxes?

    I mean, damn, if you want to break it down, Max is essentially trying to give Clark his own Catwoman who is also borderline The Vamp. Just build on those tropes (with more tropes) like a Lego set until you've got something cool!

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I could swear I've seen her name also used as a position before, certainly that felt the implication with "the real Maxima" from Orlando's run. As for repeating tropes, aren't superheroes just tropes cobbled together in bright colors slinging tropes at each other to see who can sell the most lunchboxes?
    Yes, but even there they try to set apart some concepts from others.

    I mean, damn, if you want to break it down, Max is essentially trying to give Clark his own Catwoman who is also borderline The Vamp. Just build on those tropes (with more tropes) like a Lego set until you've got something cool!
    Hey, I'm in the wagon for return to the roots of Maxima origin and set her apart from the nuMaxima in some way. And I applaud the She is calling the same idea, it is a good solution. But it has been already used. In the Superman books. On a Superman adversary. The similarities in that case, I think, don't help for Maxima's case.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

  10. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Earth and Superman definitely infected Maxima. I agree, she's complicated and that's why I love that character so much.

    I don't think she'd every fully renounce some of Almerac's twisted ways. With her, it's about progress rather than an end goal.

    She'll always be a bit petty, ruthless and devoted to her people no matter how much you try and make her a selfless hero.
    Therein lies the challenge for Clark I think. Given his upbringing by the Kents, he would certainly believe in the possibility of trying to influence someone as powerful as Maxima for the better. In Adventures of Superman Annual 03, Clark muses about how being on Almerac was worth it if it meant showing Maxima another way of ruling. That's a deep rabbit hole. Almeracians still practice slavery. Almeracians learn swordplay when they are toddlers, and if they lose, their parents beat them if they haven't already been killed. Almeracians will follow whoever is the mightiest, so perhaps Superman would be capable of introducing some reform if he remained on their planet for a while. Instead of a warlord, he could be just a lord.

  11. #266
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    Yes, but even there they try to set apart some concepts from others.



    Hey, I'm in the wagon for return to the roots of Maxima origin and set her apart from the nuMaxima in some way. And I applaud the She is calling the same idea, it is a good solution. But it has been already used. In the Superman books. On a Superman adversary. The similarities in that case, I think, don't help for Maxima's case.
    I see what you're saying and I totally understand, but we're under the situation where you either erase a gay character or have to rename someone and thus make them "lesser." There's not a whole lot of good options. At the end of the day, both Luthor and Brainiac are "the smart one" so it's not like traits aren't shared. It's about how you build Almerac's society around that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I see what you're saying and I totally understand, but we're under the situation where you either erase a gay character or have to rename someone and thus make them "lesser." There's not a whole lot of good options.
    I suppose than right now Max is in a situation where or you lose or you lose. But if the idea is than "Maxima" is a title is the best path, then go with that, unless a better option appears.

    At the end of the day, both Luthor and Brainiac are "the smart one" so it's not like traits aren't shared. It's about how you build Almerac's society around that.
    Yes. They are both two bald supergenius who hate Superman. Fortunately the emphasis is not on their lack of head hair, but in the aspects than makes them different.
    Last edited by Thor-Ul; 06-12-2021 at 03:13 PM. Reason: quote
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

  13. #268
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    I suppose than right now Max is in a situation where or you lose or you lose. But if the idea is than "Maxima" is a title is the best path, then go with that, unless a better option appears.


    Yes. They are both two bald supergenius who hate Superman. Fortunately the emphasis is not on their lack of head hair, but in the aspects than makes them different.
    Agreed, which is why with Max I'm only using the title workaround to keep both and hopefully do some cool stuff with them so that the shared name becomes the least interesting thing about them. But who knows? In the end, it's DC's character and they get to decide their fate.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-12-2021 at 01:31 PM.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    In the end, it's DC's character and they get to decide their fate.
    Amen to that bro!
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

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  15. #270
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    Amen to that bro!
    Just this conversation alone has been more thought given to OG Maxima than DC has provided in years.

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