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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I agree; that era leaned into the "got the hawts for Superman!" too much. Politics were always there in Maxima's motivation, even back then, but it took too much of a backseat.

    In my head I write that off as Maxima just being excited that she found a potential consort that didn't utterly disgust her, and she did indeed look forward to doing her royal duty and securing an heir, thrilled that personal desire and politics actually aligned for once. But that's reading between the lines more than a proper analysis of those issues requires.
    It's been a while, but even in her first story, didn't she reject the rejection of Superman as suitable? With some sort of comment about the lower classes not knowing quality? Reading that, my thought was that either attraction was playing a stronger role than it should in her selection process, or she was re-evaluating her mindset on what weakness was (on whether he was expressing it). Though I suppose it could be read an actual, unbiased-by-desire, assessment. That just wasn't my first thought.

  2. #212
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It's been a while, but even in her first story, didn't she reject the rejection of Superman as suitable? With some sort of comment about the lower classes not knowing quality? Reading that, my thought was that either attraction was playing a stronger role than it should in her selection process, or she was re-evaluating her mindset on what weakness was (on whether he was expressing it). Though I suppose it could be read an actual, unbiased-by-desire, assessment. That just wasn't my first thought.
    Maxima is absolutely the kind of person who would use any justification she could to get out of admitting she made a call purely on emotional response. Her pride won't let her admit she made a bad call just because she felt something, even if she knows it's true. I can totally buy (and would write) a Maxima giving up on Clark just declaring he's not actually worth her time because it's easier to swallow than he chose someone else. If Maxima has one fatal flaw, it's definitely her pride.

  3. #213
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Any news? On Maxima guys?

  4. #214
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    In your ideal headcanon, how many children would Maxima have? And by how many fathers? If using natural gestation, women (at least those that generally have single births) may have to focus on quality over quantity. Still, I couldn't see her putting everything into just one. And at least initially, she did want Superman by her side - she wasn't looking solely for a sperm donor. But I really don't care if that aspect changes.

  5. #215
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    In your ideal headcanon, how many children would Maxima have? And by how many fathers? If using natural gestation, women (at least those that generally have single births) may have to focus on quality over quantity. Still, I couldn't see her putting everything into just one. And at least initially, she did want Superman by her side - she wasn't looking solely for a sperm donor. But I really don't care if that aspect changes.
    How many kids? Somewhere between two and five.

    Almerac strikes me as the kind of place that is extremely tough on young nobles. Plotting and power moves are likely common, with kids an easy and obvious target, and assassination is probably a common tool. Maxima would need enough kids to ensure that at least some of them make it to adulthood, but not so many that the narrative struggles to juggle them all.

    Once again, I look at the Seanchan empire from the Wheel of Time for inspiration here; Almeraci royals likely face assassination attempts from foreign agents intent on weakening a rival empire, as well as noble Almeraci Houses trying to take the throne, and maybe even their own siblings, as the children vie for position and favor with the queen. And since this "culling the herd" practice would make sure only the strongest and cleverest sit on the throne, a ruling Maxima probably even encourages such things.

    As I've said before, I'd repurpose the New52 Maxima into a daughter who was deemed unfit to rule and was sent to "outer space superhero school" as a way to take her off the political board while also training a powerful protector of the empire. I'd also introduce a son who embodies all the worst aspects of this political landscape and was judged unfit for rule, and if I were to create more kids they too would be, somehow, unworthy of the throne, to make sure that Maxima's need to secure a worthy heir remains intact (for now).

    Who would their father/s be? I'm not sure. I think each kid would have a different father, as each consort proves to provide weaker genetic stock than anticipated (either in a low powered child, or by getting killed). I don't know if it'd be better to say they were men we've never met before and leave them out of the picture, or use established DC characters with a low profile, like Massacre (a common suggestion after Our Worlds At War) or the Alpha Centurion, just to provide some reference points and connective tissue.

    One of those fathers, killed by some awful political plot, might have been someone Maxima actually loved. I think that'd provide some good pathos for her character and help explain her attitude towards Clark. In him, she might see a second chance at love and after losing the last guy she's doubly prepared to do whatever it takes to not only secure Almerac's stability, but her own satisfaction.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  6. #216
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    In your ideal headcanon, how many children would Maxima have? And by how many fathers? If using natural gestation, women (at least those that generally have single births) may have to focus on quality over quantity. Still, I couldn't see her putting everything into just one. And at least initially, she did want Superman by her side - she wasn't looking solely for a sperm donor. But I really don't care if that aspect changes.
    Hmm like I said before on this thread. One of those kids are Clark's.

  7. #217
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    In your ideal headcanon, how many children would Maxima have? And by how many fathers? If using natural gestation, women (at least those that generally have single births) may have to focus on quality over quantity. Still, I couldn't see her putting everything into just one. And at least initially, she did want Superman by her side - she wasn't looking solely for a sperm donor. But I really don't care if that aspect changes.
    One. Because NuMax didn't turn out how she wanted and is so disobedient and rebellious, I think she'd be so focused on "fixing" her daughter that she would put procreating again on hold. I also think that deep down, she'd also rather have her next child be one of choice instead of duty. Max is a bit conflicted even if she's too proud to admit it. She's so focused on Almerac and so prideful that if something isn't going as she intends or she can't control it (Clark, her daughter) she pivots into something she can win at. With interpersonal relationships, we've seen that Maxima generally rubs people the wrong way and is mostly take with little give (and that usually comes at some advantage to her, or a bid at one). I think she actually would want a companion she can emotionally invest in but is kind of incapable of securing one who wouldn't really just be after power, wealth or status. Max is her own worst enemy in that respect. It'd be easy to just have her give birth to 2-5 kids and say she did it for Almerac, but I like that Maxima is the one who keeps getting in her own way and preventing herself from getting what she wants because she keeps putting what she perceives as best for Almerac first.

    That it boils over into frustration that leads to conflict makes her very compelling, at least for me in my headcanon and most my plotted ideas.

  8. #218
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    In your ideal headcanon, how many children would Maxima have? And by how many fathers? If using natural gestation, women (at least those that generally have single births) may have to focus on quality over quantity. Still, I couldn't see her putting everything into just one. And at least initially, she did want Superman by her side - she wasn't looking solely for a sperm donor. But I really don't care if that aspect changes.
    And sag that body with endless pregnancies? No way baby.

    Jokes asides, Maxima is an humanoid alien and second a superpowered alien. Any knid of explanation is possible for a fictional physiology. Maybe her babies are ready in four weeks or even depends of the father's physiology. But even if she have an analogue human physiology, I don't think she would be willing to gestate her children. Also, in this way, the eugenetic aspect is accentuated, because in this way the best aspect are preserved. In my headcanon, Almerac is so oriented to hedonistic ways than their technology is even developted to avoid unconfortable situations like old age, or pregnancies and the Almeracians are gestated in similar way to Post-Crisis Krypton, on artificial matrix. Slash that. Almerac would be pretty much similar to the Kryptonian society seen in the first issue of World of Krypton, but with Almeraci more willing to explore beyond their world and slave other cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    How many kids? Somewhere between two and five.

    Almerac strikes me as the kind of place that is extremely tough on young nobles. Plotting and power moves are likely common, with kids an easy and obvious target, and assassination is probably a common tool. Maxima would need enough kids to ensure that at least some of them make it to adulthood, but not so many that the narrative struggles to juggle them all.

    Once again, I look at the Seanchan empire from the Wheel of Time for inspiration here; Almeraci royals likely face assassination attempts from foreign agents intent on weakening a rival empire, as well as noble Almeraci Houses trying to take the throne, and maybe even their own siblings, as the children vie for position and favor with the queen. And since this "culling the herd" practice would make sure only the strongest and cleverest sit on the throne, a ruling Maxima probably even encourages such things.

    As I've said before, I'd repurpose the New52 Maxima into a daughter who was deemed unfit to rule and was sent to "outer space superhero school" as a way to take her off the political board while also training a powerful protector of the empire. I'd also introduce a son who embodies all the worst aspects of this political landscape and was judged unfit for rule, and if I were to create more kids they too would be, somehow, unworthy of the throne, to make sure that Maxima's need to secure a worthy heir remains intact (for now).

    Who would their father/s be? I'm not sure. I think each kid would have a different father, as each consort proves to provide weaker genetic stock than anticipated (either in a low powered child, or by getting killed). I don't know if it'd be better to say they were men we've never met before and leave them out of the picture, or use established DC characters with a low profile, like Massacre (a common suggestion after Our Worlds At War) or the Alpha Centurion, just to provide some reference points and connective tissue.

    One of those fathers, killed by some awful political plot, might have been someone Maxima actually loved. I think that'd provide some good pathos for her character and help explain her attitude towards Clark. In him, she might see a second chance at love and after losing the last guy she's doubly prepared to do whatever it takes to not only secure Almerac's stability, but her own satisfaction.
    I like this.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

  9. #219
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I don't think she would be willing to gestate her children. Also, in this way, the eugenetic aspect is accentuated, because in this way the best aspect are preserved. In my headcanon, Almerac is so oriented to hedonistic ways than their technology is even developted to avoid unconfortable situations like old age, or pregnancies and the Almeracians are gestated in similar way to Post-Crisis Krypton, on artificial matrix
    I don't mind that, exactly. I do however, dislike it called hedonistic or that it would almost inevitably be portrayed as negative. Assuming we had artificial wombs that worked as well as human ones, I don't think it would be all wrong for women to use them. Convenient, safe, and less stress, danger, and yes, uncomfortableness for women. It's a win to me. I don't care about "natural" (the Internet isn't exactly natural, and neither are numerous treatments for illnesses, etc). There's no reason that should be "cold" or less emotional bonds present. It's very frustrating for me that women would be judged for avoiding a difficulty men never had to face. Or that society would be judged for that being their routine way. And avoiding the difficulties of old age (while not harming anyone in the process) - sign me up. It's a dream come true to me, the holy grail, almost. I just don't like those technologies (particularly artificial gestation) so frequently being associated with cold and unfeeling societies or those that don't value people/individuals.

    Sorry for the tangent.

  10. #220
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I wouldn't have a problem with Almerac using "birthing pods" either. It fits with the overall theme of genetic perfectionism and the scant published history of cloning and genetic experimentation.

    But like Tzigone I don't see that as inherently negative either, such technology would be a big benefit for a lot of reasons, especially for a queen who rules over a tumulus and violent empire where assassination and scandal are tools regularly employed to dethrone the unwary and any sign of weakness is virtually a death sentence. And the parallels to post-Crisis Krypton provide some great contrast, if that version of Krypton happens to be in play. On Krypton, it was all cold and sterile, but on Almerac, a culture driven by its passions, this kind of artificial gestation wouldn't be cold and sterile at all, and that'd make for some great contrasts with Clark's home world.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #221
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Hey, I am all for advanced technologies than improve human life, but also I understand than every new advance change human society in unexpected ways and have impact than only can be measured in decades, with its benign and perverse consecuences. (Think about the industrial revolution and the effects we living it today) There could be psychological impacts on arttificial gestated humans? Will only people with more resources access to that technology and poor people will had to get used to be born naturally, creating a new social class difference? Will the emotional bond between mother and child be weakened or it will be irrelevant? Would be some unexpected side effect of being artificially gestated? We don't know because has not happened yet. Something we can only learned living them. And even, there are thing we think we know but only we have a superficial knowlegde of it. But if improves human life, count me in, as is for artificial meat, insect protein, inserted chips, organs harvesting and personalized medicine.

    I am not saying that use that technology is hedonistic, but than Maxima's culture have an hedonistic reason to use it, maybe even being considering a form of art instead a science, and something more than necesary considering the culture of Almerac.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

  12. #222
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Here we get some pieces of Almerac educational system:

    MaxEd_01.jpg

    MaxEd-02.jpg

    MaxEd-3.jpg

    (More images for the thread)
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

  13. #223
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Oh I definitely agree that any major change in social norms creates both positive and negative consequences, and Almerac's use of genetic engineering should have both of those things explored. And Almerac's is a hedonistic culture, but that's not *all* they are either, and I very much doubt they created artificial gestation simply to save their women from stretch marks.

    One of the best things about Maxima and Almerac is that, since Maxima isn't a straight villain or hero, you can dive into moral gray areas and complexities you otherwise can't. There are some really awful things about both her and her planet as well as some really good things, and a lot of stuff that is neither "good" or "bad" but is just different from how we do things.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #224
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    There could be psychological impacts on arttificial gestated humans?
    Which would be bad, but I specified as good as natural gestation.

    Will only people with more resources access to that technology and poor people will had to get used to be born naturally, creating a new social class difference?
    We're already good at social classes - it's not the technology's fault and many technologies now commonplace (refrigeration, running water, electricity, cars, etc.) were at first available only to wealthy. Though I admit there are still many too poor to have access. Nonetheless, very rarely is the technology itself existing the problem.

    Will the emotional bond between mother and child be weakened or it will be irrelevant?
    Now that one is just wrong-headed to me, given the relationships between adoptive parents and children (including Clark, himself, who is very important to this world) and, of course, the relationships children have with fathers. Doesn't help that I've seen similar arguments against daycare.

    Would be some unexpected side effect of being artificially gestated? We don't know because has not happened yet. Something we can only learned living them.
    Obviously, all new technologies should be tested. I would not be surprised if artificial gestation began with very premature infants that would otherwise have very little chance of survival gestating the last (quite a few) weeks. But again, I'm talking about how this technology is represented in fiction, which is in a overwhelmingly negative way (often with selfishness or lack of caring implied) and my problems it being treated that way instead of simply treated like any other advanced sci-fi medicinal treatment (many of which are, though certainly nowhere near all) are treated very positively. I never seen it treated positively. Sort of neutral, once, maybe, but mostly as the product of "bad" societies. I don't like that. And the idea was very much presented in a tone of negativity/selfishness here (or at least, that's what "hedonistic" implies to me, others may perceive it differently), and I don't like how minds seem to leap there.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-05-2021 at 08:47 PM.

  15. #225
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Is Almerac like ancient Rome?

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