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  1. #16
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    The STAS version of Maxima is an all-time favorite...






  2. #17
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Reposting this beauty, because why not?

    SJNeal
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    The CBR Community STANDARDS & RULES

  3. #18
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    What if Maxima and Clark knee each other already and Maxima shows Clark her(their) daughter.
    Really don't care for Superdeadbeat Dad. Clark should have an active role as a father and people already **** on him enough over Jon.

    However, considering House of El is making him out to be someone who had many children with different women after Lois died (which I still don't care for, mind) that's where Max would probably fit in the most organically.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Really don't care for Superdeadbeat Dad. Clark should have an active role as a father and people already **** on him enough over Jon.

    However, considering House of El is making him out to be someone who had many children with different women after Lois died (which I still don't care for, mind) that's where Max would probably fit in the most organically.
    I don't see what wrong with it. It's not like it happened before and you can just have Maxima just simply never tell Clark. This brings a whole new dinamic to the Super mythos and it Gives Jon and Conner a sister.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    I don't see what wrong with it. It's not like it happened before and you can just have Maxima just simply never tell Clark. This brings a whole new dinamic to the Super mythos and it Gives Jon and Conner a sister.
    Not a fan, for various reasons. It would end up with Clark looking bad. Probably Lois, too, knowing my luck. In your version, did Clark know Maxima's goal? Because if he did, he's a moron for having sex with her and even moreso for not following up to see if she achieved that goal.

    Plus generally sick of secret/unknown kids showing up.* Especially grown ones. Tired of heroes not getting to raise their kids (speed-aging/timeskips another issue there). And I actively dislike everything/one being connected. Plus, I think Clark already has enough characters he needs to be interacting with. Super family really doesn't need to grow anymore right now. The kids he's already had have been handled poorly, too, IMO.

    * I actually like quite a few of the characters, I'm just bored with the plot device.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 01-01-2021 at 04:16 PM.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Not a fan, for various reasons. It would end up with Clark looking bad. Probably Lois, too, knowing my luck. In your version, did Clark know Maxima's goal? Because if he did, he's a moron for having sex with her and even moreso for not following up to see if she achieved that goal.
    Bendis already took care of making Clark AND Lois bad. In fact it was pretty awful. I might not like Jon but that was seriously messed up.

  7. #22
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Not a fan, for various reasons. It would end up with Clark looking bad. Probably Lois, too, knowing my luck. In your version, did Clark know Maxima's goal? Because if he did, he's a moron for having sex with her and even moreso for not following up to see if she achieved that goal.
    I mean she tells him in most versions I've encountered. Yeah, he'd be a goddamn fool to sleep a woman screaming "I conquer planets and I want you to put a baby in me" and think "this'll be fine. I can totally pull off hitting and quitting." Not to mention paint him as a gigantic *******. It's a bad look all around.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    Bendis already took care of making Clark AND Lois bad. In fact it was pretty awful. I might not like Jon but that was seriously messed up.
    I agree it was horrific. I quite reading the comic. So I want to seem them be made better again. I'll even take retcons to that end. No need to heap more crappiness on top of the crappiness we already got and - with further writers perpetuating it - ruin them forever.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree it was horrific. I quite reading the comic. So I want to seem them be made better again. I'll even take retcons to that end. No need to heap more crappiness on top of the crappiness we already got and - with further writers perpetuating it - ruin them forever.
    Im not even sure how you can retcon that without being convoluted.

    Edit. Also for everything you said, it's nothing good writing can't fix. Jesus, this reminds me of something Yoda and Ascended once said that we are kinda incredibly jaded. This are pretty good ideas, the problem would be the execution. Which I am worried cause is DC. Look what Bendis did
    Last edited by Prime; 01-01-2021 at 04:26 PM.

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Well he'd need to be someone who informs Nu Max's biology so I'd start there. He'd mirror Clark's personality as a clear stand-in and where his daughter gets her radical ideas from (more on that later) since Maxima rules and he is more or less along for the ride, thus having more time to raise their child alongside her instructors.
    So we need a solid Clark proxy who's space based and would've been around 15-20 years ago, but one who also has an open enough history that we could say he spent years on Almerac raising Nu Max while empress Maxima ruled.....if we're looking at established characters that's not a lot of options.

    Captain Comet perhaps? Depending on what his current origin is he'd have been around then. His power set fits, as does his morality. And his lack of publishing history means he could have spent a few years on Almerac without really impacting his stories.

    As for Nu Max, I think she can be about 16 in current lore, so five-six years younger than Jon should be, so I think it works out. It means Superman had to be a public figure for about six years before his son was born, and I imagine Lois and Clark had Jon a few years into their marriage at least (after assuming it wasn't possible, maybe trying anyway, etc).
    Are you suggesting Clark be NuMax's father here? I agree, it could fit within the timeline; Clark meets Maxima early in his career before he and Lois get serious, Maxima gets pregnant and never tells him, and years later Clark discovers he has a daughter.

    But even though it would fit within the timeline and there'd be nothing wrong with Clark's actions, I don't think it'd go down well with the fandom. It's basically rehashing the Superman Returns plot; Clark gets someone knocked up but is separated before finding out about his child. And we all know how well that part of the film went over with people.

    And not just because it'd be silly to, but also she's a ruler and for her to wait on some schmuck forever would appear weak; Almerac takes, it doesn't wait, so even if she loved Clark (and I don't think she ever did or really would) she'd move on with that option open if needed.
    I think a year is a good amount of time. Maxima chases Clark for a bit, joins the League for a while (either a last ditch effort to get Clark, or assess earth's potential threat, or decide if they're worth adding to the empire....or all three), then goes home.

    As for Nu Max, you kind of hit it on the head. I think the school situation would be a "get with it or get out of the way" situation for Nu Max. She's not trying to get her killed or anything, she's still her daughter, but she's looking to position the board to a place where she won't be the Maxima who birthed the rebellious Maxima, if that makes sense; the position got to her head and she started thinking as a monarch exclusively and not as a parent.
    Makes sense. It also strengthens Almerac. We know that many real civilizations would take their "extra" kids and either ship them off to a monastery, marry them off in political arrangements, or train them to be warriors who'd protect the throne. If Nu Max isn't suited to rule (either due to her values or because she won't provide heirs) then training her as a warrior/hero ensures that the genetic potential still serves the empire and the throne remains strong.

    I think that Nu Max wouldn't share the Almeracian love of conquest from an early age and start asking about more peaceful reform and perhaps letting conquered planets regain their independence. Max would still love her daughter, but think her weak and unfit to rule.
    Which would fit Maxima's character nicely, as well as move her away from the homophobia of those JL issues. See, this is why I love Maxima; she's a cold blooded, ruthless bitch who can be pretty selfish....but in the end, everything she does really *is* about Almerac.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    Vartox maybe? (LOL)
    I'd actually set Vartox up as Maxima's new husband. Not as Nu Max's father but as the guy Maxima takes as a consort after giving up on Clark. He'd be fantastic as Nu Max's father, but then you're left with the problem of "Maxima has a valid mate, why is she trying to get Superman?"
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Ascended what do you think about it being Clark. How would you make it work?

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    Ascended what do you think about it being Clark. How would you make it work?
    Well, like I said above, I think Clark and Maxima having a kid fits within the timeline. Clark would've slept with Maxima early in his career, and she would have never told him about their daughter. So from a moral standpoint Clark is in the clear; he didn't cheat on Lois or abandon a child or anything like that.

    But I think the fandom would revolt, no matter how well it was done. It's not the execution, or even the concept, or any of it, it'd just be a knee jerk reaction against Clark having a child with someone who isn't Lois. With enough time, attention, and quality effort, you could turn people around on it and get them to accept the idea but....I honestly don't think it's worth it; we're talking about what is essentially a supporting character for one of Clark's lesser used frenemy/rogues, after all, and I'd rather see the page time dedicated to something more pertinent. I mean, I love Maxima and Almerac and all of it, but this is a very minor part of the larger Super mythos and while I would welcome Almerac getting more attention and development, this wouldn't necessarily be the best way to go about doing that.

    But *if* I were to do it? I'd try to sell it as part of a wider exploration of Almerac and its culture. I have a story in my head where Maxima and Vartox get married and combine their empires, and invite the Kent/El family to the wedding (awkward!) So I'd include the Nu Max revelation as part of that larger story. Probably use Nu Max as a focal character in the arc, as Clark gets to know his daughter and learns about her culture. After that....I'm not totally sure where I'd take her or the new dynamic. Nu Max would need a hook that isn't already provided by Kara, Conner, or Jon, but there's also no point to making her Clark's daughter if you just send her back to space superhero high school or the Almeraci throne room afterwards.

    We also have to consider the long-term. Clark's not the kind of guy who would leave Nu Max to her life once he found out about her. He'd want to be involved. He'd feel responsible for her. He'd *need* to be there in her life. What does that end up looking like? Does she spend summers on earth now? Does he visit her every weekend on Almerac? Does she move to earth and try to figure out how to live as an earthling, and if so what sets that apart from Kara's journey? We're talking about a pretty huge twist to the narrative, and weighing the pro's and con's of it....I think there's better ways to utilize Almerac, Maxima, and Nu Max that better showcase all those places and characters.

    And I'm not overly fond of Clark having kids in the first place (so maybe everything I wrote above is just my confirmation bias). I like Jon well enough, and I've accepted that he might end up being one of those things that sticks to the mythos, but Clark shouldn't have children, in my mind, including ones he doesn't know about.
    Last edited by Ascended; 01-01-2021 at 05:31 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #28
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    So we need a solid Clark proxy who's space based and would've been around 15-20 years ago, but one who also has an open enough history that we could say he spent years on Almerac raising Nu Max while empress Maxima ruled.....if we're looking at established characters that's not a lot of options.

    Captain Comet perhaps? Depending on what his current origin is he'd have been around then. His power set fits, as does his morality. And his lack of publishing history means he could have spent a few years on Almerac without really impacting his stories.
    Oh, I'd make him up. DC cosmic needs to be expanded, not cannibalized. He's essentially the Poor Man's Superman because she never got over her fantasy of him as opposed to accepting who Clark is and why they're incompatible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Are you suggesting Clark be NuMax's father here? I agree, it could fit within the timeline; Clark meets Maxima early in his career before he and Lois get serious, Maxima gets pregnant and never tells him, and years later Clark discovers he has a daughter.
    No, just that Max fits within the entire timeframe so NuMax can still be alive and well today with Clark's status quo need not shift. I don't like him being her father at all to be honest...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    But even though it would fit within the timeline and there'd be nothing wrong with Clark's actions, I don't think it'd go down well with the fandom. It's basically rehashing the Superman Returns plot; Clark gets someone knocked up but is separated before finding out about his child. And we all know how well that part of the film went over with people.
    Because this, basically. And because Clark has to be a grade-A moron for a galactic conqueror to demand he impregnate her, him have sex with her, and then think no kid came of it. Like are you kidding me? lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think a year is a good amount of time. Maxima chases Clark for a bit, joins the League for a while (either a last ditch effort to get Clark, or assess earth's potential threat, or decide if they're worth adding to the empire....or all three), then goes home.
    Pretty much. I think they part somewhat as friends. She'll have stopped trying to wreck Clark's home, so to speak, and her work with heroes may help him see her in a better light. I do think he would tell her that if he finds out she returned to be some kind of despot, though, he'd pay her a visit-- and not the kind she wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Makes sense. It also strengthens Almerac. We know that many real civilizations would take their "extra" kids and either ship them off to a monastery, marry them off in political arrangements, or train them to be warriors who'd protect the throne. If Nu Max isn't suited to rule (either due to her values or because she won't provide heirs) then training her as a warrior/hero ensures that the genetic potential still serves the empire and the throne remains strong.
    My thoughts exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Which would fit Maxima's character nicely, as well as move her away from the homophobia of those JL issues. See, this is why I love Maxima; she's a cold blooded, ruthless bitch who can be pretty selfish....but in the end, everything she does really *is* about Almerac.
    Yeah, I adore her because of that. She's absolutely about her people and may actually be a good ruler to them (we don't know enough of their values for us to judge her on). I don't think Max has thought about family long enough to ever actually be a good parent on her own. That Nu Max turned out a healthy person probably speaks to her father, which I think OG Max would think of more as a political mate than someone she cares for. The arc I'd play with Maxima, were I able to work on her over a period of time, would be to reign her in and have her be a better mother to Nu Max but ultimately still be a monarch first and foremost. I'd even include the Orlando Wonder Woman arc which reveals that Almerac was actually founded by women in love, with OG Max arguing that one revelation of the past doesn't really change their entire history, it simply provides new context. Their traditions don't have to change, and there's nothing inherently wrong with Nu Max being gay, which would be a revelation to her daughter because she'd think OG Max was a homophobe. Communication is key, right? I think OG Max would be unswayed. Their way works, as she sees it, and should continue. Nu Max doesn't want to produce an heir as she did and have her concubines on the side? Well, she's not fit to rule then. That's her mindset in my head. Very cut and dry "what makes the empire stronger, family and state should remain separate."

    And OG Max wouldn't be right about it, either. She's a deeply flawed person raised by a brutal system, but it's their way of life. It'd be easy to have Nu Max push for a democratic reform but I get a little tired of every fantasy kingdom or planet having to mimic American democracy because it just sucks the science fiction out of space and supposes only our systems can work. I wouldn't upend all of Almerac to make it utopia. It's a galactic empire that conquers others and OG Max has the heart of the empire. They're not going to change because Nu Max doesn't want to play the game. They would have to sway OG Max on her beliefs, which would ultimately be the arc I want to tell. I think OG Max could bend in her beliefs but never break with them. Almerac becoming a federation instead of empire would take centuries to transition and Nu Max would very much be the spark that starts the fire which burns down conquest.

    But just a switch to groovytown is not really good science fiction. Real change takes time and a lot of, well, playing the game... Which Nu Max isn't trained for (again, her mother at work, not wanting to help her seditious beliefs poison their empire) and frankly uninterested in. It'd be kind of fun to have her and Jon team up to take on Almerac, which would really bug OG Max and provoke retaliation (because she's also petty, given it's Superman's son).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'd actually set Vartox up as Maxima's new husband. Not as Nu Max's father but as the guy Maxima takes as a consort after giving up on Clark. He'd be fantastic as Nu Max's father, but then you're left with the problem of "Maxima has a valid mate, why is she trying to get Superman?"
    Great idea, honestly, and some ultra-macho dude would factor in well after I essentially set up Diet Clark as Nu Max's dad. lol

    It'd get him away from being PG's primary rogue, too. She deserves just a bit better than space chad.
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-01-2021 at 05:31 PM.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, like I said above, I think Clark and Maxima having a kid fits within the timeline. Clark would've slept with Maxima early in his career, and she would have never told him about their daughter. So from a moral standpoint Clark is in the clear; he didn't cheat on Lois or abandon a child or anything like that.

    But I think the fandom would revolt, no matter how well it was done. It's not the execution, or even the concept, or any of it, it'd just be a knee jerk reaction against Clark having a child with someone who isn't Lois. With enough time, attention, and quality effort, you could turn people around on it and get them to accept the idea but....I honestly don't think it's worth it; we're talking about what is essentially a supporting character for one of Clark's lesser used frenemy/rogues, after all, and I'd rather see the page time dedicated to something more pertinent. I mean, I love Maxima and Almerac and all of it, but this is a very minor part of the larger Super mythos and while I would welcome Almerac getting more attention and development, this wouldn't necessarily be the best way to go about doing that.

    But *if* I were to do it? I'd try to sell it as part of a wider exploration of Almerac and its culture. I have a story in my head where Maxima and Vartox get married and combine their empires, and invite the Kent/El family to the wedding (awkward!) So I'd include the Nu Max revelation as part of that larger story. Probably use Nu Max as a focal character in the arc, as Clark gets to know his daughter and learns about her culture. After that....I'm not totally sure where I'd take her or the new dynamic. Nu Max would need a hook that isn't already provided by Kara, Conner, or Jon, but there's also no point to making her Clark's daughter if you just send her back to space superhero high school or the Almeraci throne room afterwards.

    We also have to consider the long-term. Clark's not the kind of guy who would leave Nu Max to her life once he found out about her. He'd want to be involved. He'd feel responsible for her. He'd *need* to be there in her life. What does that end up looking like? Does she spend summers on earth now? Does he visit her every weekend on Almerac? Does she move to earth and try to figure out how to live as an earthling, and if so what sets that apart from Kara's journey? We're talking about a pretty huge twist to the narrative, and weighing the pro's and con's of it....I think there's better ways to utilize Almerac, Maxima, and Nu Max that better showcase all those places and characters.

    And I'm not overly fond of Clark having kids in the first place (so maybe everything I wrote above is just my confirmation bias). I like Jon well enough, and I've accepted that he might end up being one of those things that sticks to the mythos, but Clark shouldn't have children, in my mind, including ones he doesn't know about.
    How is it that you always somehow have great ideas.got that editor job yet man? And the fandoms some of the reasons why Superman is stale.(I'll admit sometimes I am part of the problem) but sometimes we really should try new things.

  15. #30
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    How is it that you always somehow have great ideas.got that editor job yet man? And the fandoms some of the reasons why Superman is stale.(I'll admit sometimes I am part of the problem) but sometimes we really should try new things.
    I think we're all part of the problem sometimes. I try to remember that we do need to try new things, but I can be just as set in my ways as anyone else.

    And no, don't have that editor's job yet. I suppose I could send a resume to DC, but given all the layoffs at the company I doubt they're hiring.

    Still, if any pro's or editors are lurking....send me a PM and let's talk; my degree is perfectly built for creative industries, including editing, writing, and management, and while I can fanboy as hard as the next poster I also know when to leave that at home and bring the business. I've also done a fair bit of graphic design and marketing so I do have some experience in similar fields.

    Throwing that out there, just in case......
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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