Karen Starr Power Girl Appreciation 2021

[Ascended]

I like the lineup, and I think it's actually a fairly beefy team. Captain Atom, Karen, and Kyle are all high-end powerhouses with lots of options beyond "hit really hard." You've got two big brains in Babs and Ted, Booster is a friggin time master, and Metamorpho can do practically anything, and can be an answer to nearly any problem.

But it is *way* too whitebread for today's audience.

So I suggest....

Drop Babs and replace her with Kate Kane or Cass Cain. They both bring Bat representation, they provide more diversity, and while neither are as smart as Babs, they have their own awesome skillsets to bring to the table. If Babs' intellect and personality are things you definitely want on the roster, then have her aid the team in her role as Oracle rather than Batgirl.

Drop Ted from the active roster and put him in a combat support role. Rather than be on the battlefield throwing punches, he can be in his Bug ship on the perimeter; providing intel, tech/support, medical assistance, evacuation, whatever. When sh*t hits the fan he can costume up and throw a punch but I think Ted could be much more interesting as a non-combatant team member. And it keeps the Blue-Bold bromance active. In his place, you could use someone like Jaime Reyes, Cyborg, Mister Terrific, or Steel.

You could replace Kyle with someone like Jo, Jess, John, or Baz, but I feel like this is the kind of roster Kyle would flourish on and the guy needs a home so I'm loathe to dump him. And no, I don't count his "half Mexican" retcon as representation; it has almost never been mentioned and has had zero impact on how Kyle is written or drawn.

The team does need a big name sales draw, though I dunno how effective that strategy is these days, and the team already has characters from a bunch of major IP's. Maybe someone like the new Wonder Girl, Yara Flor. She seems to be making a lot of buzz. There's also Naomi, and...if a big name character is what you're after, gods help me, Harley Quinn (just kidding).

[achilles]

I disagree; not everything today has to have the young, fresh, ethnically diverse cast of a CW show. Nearly everything does, but not everything needs to. The above cast should work pretty well without changing the line-up.

[Ascended]

I disagree; not everything today has to have the young, fresh, ethnically diverse cast of a CW show. Nearly everything does, but not everything needs to. The above cast should work pretty well without changing the line-up.

Personally, I agree. If the roster and writing are good I don't care who is on the team or what they look like, and if the writing is bad I'm not reading it anyway. I read (minority-majority) Mighty Avengers and was happy as hell to do so not because the team were mostly all PoC but because it was a damn good book, and I'd be just as happy to read this roster.

But that's me on a personal level. If this were an actual book, that roster would get torn to shreds before the first issue came out. These days you *have* to consider your diversity if you want the book to generate anything but negative buzz.

Even if this wasn't a consideration I'd still push for Babs being removed. She's showing up in the Bat books, let someone else get a little spotlight on this hypothetical team.

[SJNeal]

I disagree; not everything today has to have the young, fresh, ethnically diverse cast of a CW show. Nearly everything does, but not everything needs to.

Yeah, it kind of does...

If this were an actual book, that roster would get torn to shreds before the first issue came out. These days you *have* to consider your diversity if you want the book to generate anything but negative buzz.

Because this. The pictured line-up would be raked over the social media coals.

[marhawkman]

Justice Leagues version of PG/Karen was a very well thought out plan since they never really explored the multiverse. One of my favorite storylines

The funny thing is that the DCAU comic tie-ins, while they ostensibly continued the series after the end of the TV show.... have Power Girl in them and don't bother to explain how. so, seemingly that continuity has both Galatea AND Karen Starr?

[achilles]

The funny thing is that the DCAU comic tie-ins, while they ostensibly continued the series after the end of the TV show.... have Power Girl in them and don't bother to explain how. so, seemingly that continuity has both Galatea AND Karen Starr?

I think they were going with the long held idea of "Ah, who cares, let's write this thing and go to the pub". A shame they never developed that character. She had promise, and there were glimpses of her as something more than just the villain, which they promptly then ignored. It was a thing they also could have done with Divine, but didn't. PG's own title did precious little to develop her villains or supporting characters. The second run seemed to not want to recognize most of her supporting cast from the first run, other than to kill one of them off and show the others at a funeral. It was just...conventional writing, shockingly so. Not terrible, but it didn't aspire to be anything more than a few stories you'd forget the second you finished reading.

And the first run was even worse in that respect, never aspiring to even attempt a great or even very good story.

[achilles]

Yeah, it kind of does...



Because this. The pictured line-up would be raked over the social media coals.

So? DC and WB need to grow a spine. Write great stories and make great characters, not to appeal to vocal minority. Great writing is what they need, not pandering. You notice that no one is arguing that the line-up shown above wouldn't be a great mix of characters who would play off each other well, based on those long established characters. No, the argument is that social media would be upset. Not how I want to pick the characters whose adventures I wish to follow.

[SJNeal]

So? DC and WB need to grow a spine. Write great stories and make great characters, not to appeal to vocal minority. Great writing is what they need, not pandering. You notice that no one is arguing that the line-up shown above wouldn't be a great mix of characters who would play off each other well, based on those long established characters. No, the argument is that social media would be upset. Not how I want to pick the characters whose adventures I wish to follow.

I don't necessarily disagee.

I also don't make the rules... *shrug*

[achilles]

I don't necessarily disagee.

I also don't make the rules... *shrug*

Yeah, sadly, none of us do. Now I wish they'd iron out the rights issues or whatever other problems they have with the owners of the Milestone properties. THAT was an example of how to do these things right, and I've missed the overall line since they went belly up. It's not just the individual character like Static or Icon or Rocket, or a character I particularly liked, Hardware, but the entire universe and how they played together. Ah, good times. Those people knew how to do it.

Ah, well, back to PG. I might go with changing her cape to blue as in that pic. It would further visually distinguish her from the rest. Though I might give her costume legs, as in Injustice 2.

[Ascended]

So? DC and WB need to grow a spine. Write great stories and make great characters, not to appeal to vocal minority.

I don't think it's a vocal minority. We've spent the last year with the nation in a state of crisis over representation and equal treatment; this isn't just a handful of SJW's trolling twitter, this is the market we're operating in.

The hypothetical roster here might end up doing well. You never know. I'd personally be thrilled to give this team a shot. With the right creators involved maybe it could avoid the obvious backlash, or at least have it be balanced out by positive buzz. And yeah, we all like the roster here, there's no real problem with it from a creative standpoint. But that's only half the equation, and from the business/marketing side of things this roster is too whitebread. It'd generate too much negativity and jeopardize it's potential sales. If I were an editor and someone brought this roster to me, I'd deny it unless they switched a couple characters around or had a story hook so unbelievably good it kept me up at night thinking about it.

Now I wish they'd iron out the rights issues or whatever other problems they have with the owners of the Milestone properties.

You do know that Milestone is back right? They dropped a launch issue a few weeks back, with new books hitting the shelves really soon, if they haven't come out already (I haven't been to the LCS for a few weeks, so they might be waiting in my pull box). Hardware is among the first wave too, so if you're a fan I'd keep an eye out for that one.

[Primal Slayer]

I think they were going with the long held idea of "Ah, who cares, let's write this thing and go to the pub". A shame they never developed that character. She had promise, and there were glimpses of her as something more than just the villain, which they promptly then ignored. It was a thing they also could have done with Divine, but didn't. PG's own title did precious little to develop her villains or supporting characters. The second run seemed to not want to recognize most of her supporting cast from the first run, other than to kill one of them off and show the others at a funeral. It was just...conventional writing, shockingly so. Not terrible, but it didn't aspire to be anything more than a few stories you'd forget the second you finished reading.

And the first run was even worse in that respect, never aspiring to even attempt a great or even very good story.

Yeah they definitely could've done an interesting story with her trying to find her place in the world and how she fits into the Superman family.

[achilles]

I don't think it's a vocal minority. We've spent the last year with the nation in a state of crisis over representation and equal treatment; this isn't just a handful of SJW's trolling twitter, this is the market we're operating in.

The hypothetical roster here might end up doing well. You never know. I'd personally be thrilled to give this team a shot. With the right creators involved maybe it could avoid the obvious backlash, or at least have it be balanced out by positive buzz. And yeah, we all like the roster here, there's no real problem with it from a creative standpoint. But that's only half the equation, and from the business/marketing side of things this roster is too whitebread. It'd generate too much negativity and jeopardize it's potential sales. If I were an editor and someone brought this roster to me, I'd deny it unless they switched a couple characters around or had a story hook so unbelievably good it kept me up at night thinking about it.



You do know that Milestone is back right? They dropped a launch issue a few weeks back, with new books hitting the shelves really soon, if they haven't come out already (I haven't been to the LCS for a few weeks, so they might be waiting in my pull box). Hardware is among the first wave too, so if you're a fan I'd keep an eye out for that one.

Well, good, perhaps I shall check them out.

[Ascended]

Just found the solicit:

Hardware: Season One #1
written by BRANDON THOMAS
art by DENYS COWAN AND BILL SIENKIEWICZ
cover by MATEUS MANHANINI
ON SALE 8/10/21 $$3.99 US | 32 PAGES | FC | DC 1 of 6

Curtis Metcalf was the brightest shining star of Alva Industries, a brilliant scientist mentored by Edwin Alva since childhood…until the failures of Alva technology at the “Big Bang” disaster threatened to destroy the company, and Alva needed a scapegoat. Now Curtis is on the run from the Dakota police department…but a man as smart—and paranoid—as Curtis takes precautions. With a nearly indestructible suit of armor and remarkable inventions that he never handed over to Alva, Curtis stands determined to do much more than clear his name…he’s going to take the fight back to Alva himself!

Writer Brandon Thomas (Future State: Aquaman, Excellence) is joined by Hardware’s co-creator and Milestone founder Denys Cowan to open a legendary new chapter in the story of the Milestone Universe’s most complicated man! Is a better world on his mind? Or just a world built for him?

So Static hits this month on the 15th, Icon on 7/27, and Hardware on 8/10. Thought they all hit at the same time but I guess not.

[Robanker]

Personally, I agree. If the roster and writing are good I don't care who is on the team or what they look like, and if the writing is bad I'm not reading it anyway. I read (minority-majority) Mighty Avengers and was happy as hell to do so not because the team were mostly all PoC but because it was a damn good book, and I'd be just as happy to read this roster.

But that's me on a personal level. If this were an actual book, that roster would get torn to shreds before the first issue came out. These days you *have* to consider your diversity if you want the book to generate anything but negative buzz.

Even if this wasn't a consideration I'd still push for Babs being removed. She's showing up in the Bat books, let someone else get a little spotlight on this hypothetical team.

This. Most my favorite runs of old are predominantly filled with white people but that's not really the market right now and the books need to adapt to the current readership as well as current trends to attract new readership.

More importantly, who on this book is the sales draw? Batgirl? Really? She's the biggest sales draw and her book has never blown up any charts, so I don't see her as sacred on this lineup. So what you have here is a book of medium-to-no sellers and all of them are CIS heterosexual white people (and Kyle, who even he forgets is half Latino now). There's no chance this book survives, let alone gets good press even if it's quality. That's not where the market is right now.

There are plenty of great characters in DC's lineup that we can lose Barbara and maybe Kyle to bring in some more diverse and hopefully popular characters to create a more balanced team. Vixen would be great on here, as would Fire and Ice. Hell, put Extrano on the book as their magic rep to replace Kyle for the projectile swiss army knife slot.

I don't think it's a vocal minority. We've spent the last year with the nation in a state of crisis over representation and equal treatment; this isn't just a handful of SJW's trolling twitter, this is the market we're operating in.

The hypothetical roster here might end up doing well. You never know. I'd personally be thrilled to give this team a shot. With the right creators involved maybe it could avoid the obvious backlash, or at least have it be balanced out by positive buzz. And yeah, we all like the roster here, there's no real problem with it from a creative standpoint. But that's only half the equation, and from the business/marketing side of things this roster is too whitebread. It'd generate too much negativity and jeopardize it's potential sales. If I were an editor and someone brought this roster to me, I'd deny it unless they switched a couple characters around or had a story hook so unbelievably good it kept me up at night thinking about it.

More or less this as well. There's a ton of projects I'd love to greenlight if I had carte blanche at DC. A new PG book, a Maxima book, a GA/Hawkman mini. I've got so many ideas I'd personally love to write, but at the end of the day that's wish fulfillment and DC is first and foremost a publisher in the business of selling stories. If I got brought this team, I'd be saying what I am now because I know this book would limp out of the gate with some hashtag all over twitter to the sound of #JusticeLeagueofAryans.

Is that fair? Not really, but this is the industry taking its medicine after decades of not properly promoting their characters of color. Consider it a growing pain, if you will. If we keep working at it, eventually it'll even out and you'll see things become more lax as more markets are serviced properly.

A lot of my favorite runs wouldn't have come out today, but that doesn't mean there aren't great runs coming out now and that modifying fancast teams can't lead to a better result. I don't know who genuinely thinks more Metal Men books will sell, but Didio kept greenlighting them because he loves them and as the guy upstairs, you get that opportunity. In this case, you've got a book with Captain Atom, Metamorpho and Kyle Rayner who more or less can't anchor a book right now. PG had a couple shots a while ago, Blue/Gold are getting another chance and Batgirl is the only time-and-true seller, albeit modest. There's no commercial avenue for this book to get made unless it's a passion project like Didio's Metal Men.

It needs help. Would I read it? You've got a lot of characters I really enjoy and one I genuinely love on there-- of course I would read it-- but I just don't see it happening. Doubly so with Captain Atom as chairman of the team. This is not a good time to be a military, stoic hero unless you're Steve Rogers. Karen should absolutely lead that team if it gets made.

[Agent Z]

I'm black and speaking for myself, had little trouble with the roster.

. This is not a good time to be a military, stoic hero unless you're Steve Rogers.

Wasn't an issue for Carol Danvers from what I recall. Atom is a lot more complicated than that when written well anyway.