Karen Starr Power Girl Appreciation 2021

[marhawkman]

I prefer Karen with Michael Holt/Mr Terrific to diversify their skillsets, abilities and dynamic as a duo.

Ohhh... I can support this one.

[John Venus]

Power Girl and Batman.

161551644_775468483063520_7187233966520101465_n.jpg

[achilles]

I prefer Karen with Michael Holt/Mr Terrific to diversify their skillsets, abilities and dynamic as a duo.

The problem is that there is literally nothing Holt brings that PG can't bring better. She's smarter than him, with much more knowledge of super-science, (ditto Supergirl), and infinitely superior physically to him in every way. Holt would wind up being a sidekick, which isn't something either character needs.

[Robanker]

The problem is that there is literally nothing Holt brings that PG can't bring better. She's smarter than him, with much more knowledge of super-science, (ditto Supergirl), and infinitely superior physically to him in every way. Holt would wind up being a sidekick, which isn't something either character needs.

I would argue Holt's more intelligent, but really they don't compliment each other at all. The way they botched all her New 52 relationships makes me never want to see them again.

Power Girl and Batman.

161551644_775468483063520_7187233966520101465_n.jpg

You're not getting supper tonight because of that, John. Hope it was worth it.

[achilles]

I would argue Holt's more intelligent, but really they don't compliment each other at all. The way they botched all her New 52 relationships makes me never want to see them again.




You're not getting supper tonight because of that, John. Hope it was worth it.

Yeah, Holt is the third smartest man.....but PG isn't a man or human. She's from a super-intelligent alien race with apparently quite a bit of knowledge of their science and tech. And, in the only extant sort of comparison....he came up short and was amazed by both PG and SG. Apart from that, Johns had her fluent in thousands of languages. I mean he had to go to those two to build a super-science thingee---and they both instantly understood circuit diagrams that took him days to make.

[Stanlos]

The problem is that there is literally nothing Holt brings that PG can't bring better. She's smarter than him, with much more knowledge of super-science, (ditto Supergirl), and infinitely superior physically to him in every way. Holt would wind up being a sidekick, which isn't something either character needs.

Where is the smarter than him thing coming from? I thought Holt, Wayne, and Luthor typically vie for the title of smartest person. If Peege is now above them that is great. I think Kimiyo is smarter too.

[Robanker]

Where is the smarter than him thing coming from? I thought Holt, Wayne, and Luthor typically vie for the title of smartest person. If Peege is now above them that is great. I think Kimiyo is smarter too.

This. Clark and Kara are the same species and all scientifically inclined and neither ever rank on that list. I see no reason Karen would. She's intelligent but Lex, Wayne and Holt are on another level.

[achilles]

This. Clark and Kara are the same species and all scientifically inclined and neither ever rank on that list. I see no reason Karen would. She's intelligent but Lex, Wayne and Holt are on another level.

It comes from Robinson and Johns. Johns made her know an impossible for any human number of languages in his retcon, (Sir Richard Burton, the Victorian explorer and linguist knew 27 languages fluently, Kara was said to know thousands). Robinson offered an explicit comparison between what the two Kryptonian ladies knew and what Holt did. And he was awed. PG's explanation for not doing that sort of thing more often....was lame, basically that she didn't want to be bothered, and he and others could do the science instead. Also....from the early 2000s, it was revealed that PG designed the JSA's communications systems. Supergirl also mentioned that she was "Science Guild", and had their training.

I've always had a problem with characters like Lex or Holt or any human really being able to be rated as star-ranging aliens with vastly older civilizations.

There is BTW a conversation about just that between Holt and Kara in that Robinson issue, as referenced above. PG and SG can instantly understand Holt's diagrams, know how to build it, but just normally doesn't want to be bothered doing that. Like I said, a bit lame.

[marhawkman]

It comes from Robinson and Johns. Johns made her know an impossible for any human number of languages in his retcon, (Sir Richard Burton, the Victorian explorer and linguist knew 27 languages fluently, Kara was said to know thousands). Robinson offered an explicit comparison between what the two Kryptonian ladies knew and what Holt did. And he was awed. PG's explanation for not doing that sort of thing more often....was lame, basically that she didn't want to be bothered, and he and others could do the science instead. Also....from the early 2000s, it was revealed that PG designed the JSA's communications systems. Supergirl also mentioned that she was "Science Guild", and had their training.

I've always had a problem with characters like Lex or Holt or any human really being able to be rated as star-ranging aliens with vastly older civilizations.

There is BTW a conversation about just that between Holt and Kara in that Robinson issue, as referenced above. PG and SG can instantly understand Holt's diagrams, know how to build it, but just normally doesn't want to be bothered doing that. Like I said, a bit lame.

There was one story arc where it was said that Kal-El was the only being on Earth who actually knew how to build a Phantom Zone projector. And not the version used on Krypton either, but an adaptation to rework it to be more of a teleporter that zaps people into the Phantom Zone.... Kal-El was the only one with the knowledge and skill needed to get it done.

Also part of why Brainiac liked hanging out with Supergirl was that she was one of the few people smart enough to talk about super-science with. Which makes me wonder how smart this person was. O-o' https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Brainiac%...ter_(Earth-22)

Seriously... Coluan/Kryptonian hybrid... probably gonna be smarter than most people.

[Robanker]

It comes from Robinson and Johns. Johns made her know an impossible for any human number of languages in his retcon, (Sir Richard Burton, the Victorian explorer and linguist knew 27 languages fluently, Kara was said to know thousands). Robinson offered an explicit comparison between what the two Kryptonian ladies knew and what Holt did. And he was awed. PG's explanation for not doing that sort of thing more often....was lame, basically that she didn't want to be bothered, and he and others could do the science instead. Also....from the early 2000s, it was revealed that PG designed the JSA's communications systems. Supergirl also mentioned that she was "Science Guild", and had their training.

I've always had a problem with characters like Lex or Holt or any human really being able to be rated as star-ranging aliens with vastly older civilizations.

There is BTW a conversation about just that between Holt and Kara in that Robinson issue, as referenced above. PG and SG can instantly understand Holt's diagrams, know how to build it, but just normally doesn't want to be bothered doing that. Like I said, a bit lame.

I'm fine with a few being that intelligent, like Lex and Holt. It makes them unique.

Karen, like Clark, has great potential to learn but I think she (like Kara and Clark) don't have that spark of genius. It's why guys like Barry and Wally have near infinite time relative to everyone else but can't come to brilliance as often as others even if they try brute forcing a solution by just running through every idea in super speed.

We see all the Kryptonian Els show a natural aptitude for science and language, but I still think it's fair to put Lex Luthor and a few characters above them intellectually.

It's pretty much all Lex has.

[achilles]

I'm fine with a few being that intelligent, like Lex and Holt. It makes them unique.

Karen, like Clark, has great potential to learn but I think she (like Kara and Clark) don't have that spark of genius. It's why guys like Barry and Wally have near infinite time relative to everyone else but can't come to brilliance as often as others even if they try brute forcing a solution by just running through every idea in super speed.

We see all the Kryptonian Els show a natural aptitude for science and language, but I still think it's fair to put Lex Luthor and a few characters above them intellectually.

It's pretty much all Lex has.

Well, yes, it's Lex's gig, but he really shouldn't be able to hold onto it forever. When I mentioned Sir Richard Burton knowing 27 languages---fluently to the extent he could pass as a native in seriously dangerous places....that is IIRC the most languages any human being has ever learned, (and to give the man further credit---they were mostly very hard languages). IIRC, Johns has PG knowing around 5000 when she arrived on Earth 2. Also...like anyone else, Lex is limited to riding on the shoulders of giants, of which we've obviously had quite a few.....but likely far, far fewer than Krypton, a much older world and civilization.

[Robanker]

Well, yes, it's Lex's gig, but he really shouldn't be able to hold onto it forever. When I mentioned Sir Richard Burton knowing 27 languages---fluently to the extent he could pass as a native in seriously dangerous places....that is IIRC the most languages any human being has ever learned, (and to give the man further credit---they were mostly very hard languages). IIRC, Johns has PG knowing around 5000 when she arrived on Earth 2. Also...like anyone else, Lex is limited to riding on the shoulders of giants, of which we've obviously had quite a few.....but likely far, far fewer than Krypton, a much older world and civilization.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I love an intelligent Karen Starr but I think you're essentially asking her to have no shortcomings. She's got Superman's ridiculous powers (if not moreso because she's Pre-Crisis Kryptonian) with an intellect surpassing Luthor and potentially resistant to native universe Kryptonite. She may as well be the Spectre-- someone so unwieldy strong she becomes a benchmark to knock over more than a character. I like all my Kryptonians to be super smart, but I want others to smoke them. Lex, Brainiac, etc. It's more compelling than, well, Batgod with no cowl.

The way comic book writers try to fake intelligence ("look at all these languages or feats they mastered off panel!") has never worked for me because it's essentially a cheat. That works for antagonists to some degree since they will largely be out of focus for a large portion of the plot, but for a protagonist who we follow we really should get a better look into their minds and see their intelligence applied rather than informed. I don't need Karen to be able to speak every language, assemble any device and decode any cryptogram. I just need her to be smart, capable and sassy.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[achilles]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I love an intelligent Karen Starr but I think you're essentially asking her to have no shortcomings. She's got Superman's ridiculous powers (if not moreso because she's Pre-Crisis Kryptonian) with an intellect surpassing Luthor and potentially resistant to native universe Kryptonite. She may as well be the Spectre-- someone so unwieldy strong she becomes a benchmark to knock over more than a character. I like all my Kryptonians to be super smart, but I want others to smoke them. Lex, Brainiac, etc. It's more compelling than, well, Batgod with no cowl.

The way comic book writers try to fake intelligence ("look at all these languages or feats they mastered off panel!") has never worked for me because it's essentially a cheat. That works for antagonists to some degree since they will largely be out of focus for a large portion of the plot, but for a protagonist who we follow we really should get a better look into their minds and see their intelligence applied rather than informed. I don't need Karen to be able to speak every language, assemble any device and decode any cryptogram. I just need her to be smart, capable and sassy.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

Oh no, I'm not asking for her to be anywhere near perfect. In fact, it's her flaws that attracted me to the character. For example, all the smarts in the world won't help you if you jump into situations before knowing what they are, or if you overestimate yourself, and perhaps underestimate others--both things PG is prone to do. That may be a character flaw PG shares with Lex. Though she wouldn't be mean about it like he would. Nor do I necessarily extend her smarts to all fields. Overall, I see her as more than humanly smart, but not necessarily for example a great detective or the master strategist type. She should be better than humans IMO at things like science, but that doesn't mean a Lex Luthor type couldn't outsmart her for other reasons.

No, I've seen people who want their favs, (looking at you, huge WW fans), to be the bestest at everything, that ruins a character IMO. The protagonist still NEEDS to have to struggle to win, and their antagonist NEEDS to be formidable enough in some way as to make the heroine's victory uncertain and difficult. PG however, has enough flaws and things she isn't good at, (diplomacy, relating well to other people, and the other character flaws I've mentioned).

At the same time, PG has been DC's whipping girl. Whenever they need to depower a powered character, they have looked to PG. Whenever they need someone to take the loss so as to build up another character, PG's their go-to girl. Whenever they need to try out a NEW weakness for a character....she gets the nod. Giving her a logical strength that won't even come into play all that often doesn't seem to be to swing the pendulum back to an even keel, much less undo much of the problems she's been saddled with over the years.

And PG is NOT resistant to Kryptonite of any stripe---they never even really hinted at that. Or magic. Or red suns.

I view PG at being good at things Kryptonians would be interested in, stuff that SHE herself is interested in, and being nearly clueless about some things she doesn't find interesting. She would not for example rival Batman as a detective, she's not as good as Wonder Woman at fighting, (though still upper tier of the powered types---that was Gail Simone's contribution to PG mythos...not mine). She probably knows little to nothing about magic, like most Kryptonians.

So she's far from perfect.

[Ascended]

The "intelligence" issue is something that causes problems with any character who's from another world, future time period, dimension, whatever. Their origins give them access to stuff that's wildly out of touch with anything resembling the real world, and it becomes a problem when you try to compare those characters to earthly ones like Lex or Holt.

The super science that people like Holt and Lex dig into, that's only cutting edge on earth. On Krypton the same science might've been covered in high school. Karen (and Kara) were given this knowledge as kids while Holt and Lex have to experiment, research, and spend tons of time discovering the same information.

I heard a story once, about a guy from some remote tribe with minimal math knowledge who found a basic algebra text book, and from that beginner's title, invented all manner of new mathematics on his own. If you went back in time a few centuries to his era, you would bring with you all the math that we've invented since then. So who is smarter, the tribesman who created new equations from scratch, or you, who was given even more advanced math at the age of sixteen?

I think the only way to really compare someone like Karen to someone like Lex or Holt (or Palmer, Choi, Morrow, Magnus, Irons, Veritas, etc), it to look at how well they innovate, not what facts they know. Karen might instantly understand one of Holt's new theories because she took "principals of dark matter" in high school, but can she discover or build something totally new? Can she push the boundaries of Kryptonian knowledge the way Holt pushes human knowledge?

Obviously the El's are a very smart family from a crazy smart species, and their intelligence and knowledge doesn't get highlighted enough for my tastes. But it's hard to compare them to earth geniuses in an honest way.

[marhawkman]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I love an intelligent Karen Starr but I think you're essentially asking her to have no shortcomings. She's got Superman's ridiculous powers (if not moreso because she's Pre-Crisis Kryptonian) with an intellect surpassing Luthor and potentially resistant to native universe Kryptonite. She may as well be the Spectre-- someone so unwieldy strong she becomes a benchmark to knock over more than a character. I like all my Kryptonians to be super smart, but I want others to smoke them. Lex, Brainiac, etc. It's more compelling than, well, Batgod with no cowl.

The way comic book writers try to fake intelligence ("look at all these languages or feats they mastered off panel!") has never worked for me because it's essentially a cheat. That works for antagonists to some degree since they will largely be out of focus for a large portion of the plot, but for a protagonist who we follow we really should get a better look into their minds and see their intelligence applied rather than informed. I don't need Karen to be able to speak every language, assemble any device and decode any cryptogram. I just need her to be smart, capable and sassy.

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

This reminds me of a comment I saw about why so few writers use the Riddler, and why so few of the ones that DO use him well... he needs the "Show not tell" approach to being a super genius. Lex Luthor, and to an extent Kal-El, demonstrate their genius by building crap that is so complicated that it might as well be magic to an ordinary person. That's more of the "tell" approach. The writer doesn't show HOW they built it, they just tell you THAT they built it.

The "intelligence" issue is something that causes problems with any character who's from another world, future time period, dimension, whatever. Their origins give them access to stuff that's wildly out of touch with anything resembling the real world, and it becomes a problem when you try to compare those characters to earthly ones like Lex or Holt.

The super science that people like Holt and Lex dig into, that's only cutting edge on earth. On Krypton the same science might've been covered in high school. Karen (and Kara) were given this knowledge as kids while Holt and Lex have to experiment, research, and spend tons of time discovering the same information.

I heard a story once, about a guy from some remote tribe with minimal math knowledge who found a basic algebra text book, and from that beginner's title, invented all manner of new mathematics on his own. If you went back in time a few centuries to his era, you would bring with you all the math that we've invented since then. So who is smarter, the tribesman who created new equations from scratch, or you, who was given even more advanced math at the age of sixteen?

I think the only way to really compare someone like Karen to someone like Lex or Holt (or Palmer, Choi, Morrow, Magnus, Irons, Veritas, etc), it to look at how well they innovate, not what facts they know. Karen might instantly understand one of Holt's new theories because she took "principals of dark matter" in high school, but can she discover or build something totally new? Can she push the boundaries of Kryptonian knowledge the way Holt pushes human knowledge?

Obviously the El's are a very smart family from a crazy smart species, and their intelligence and knowledge doesn't get highlighted enough for my tastes. But it's hard to compare them to earth geniuses in an honest way.

I disagree. Give the average person the full schematics for all of the steps to build a steam locomotive and IF they do it it'd take them years. Knowing trivia isn't intelligence. Being able to effectively USE that information is intelligence.