Karen Starr Power Girl Appreciation 2021

[marhawkman]

It is well established from the very beginning that Power Girl does not want the S symbol.
She made that pretty clear in the original All Star run when she destroys the S symbol
that the Star Spangled Kid gives to her. For Power Girl wearing it would mean she was under
the thumb of Clark, at least the Earth-2 version. I think it also marks a repudiation of
patriarchal control for her as a woman. Not to get too political in the early morning hours,
but Power Girl has an entirely different dynamic within the family than Supergirl does.

Some versions DO wear it though. Then there's how some versions don't wear it because they feel they haven't earned it...

[RobinGA]

We are back to the fact that there is no continuity or canon anymore. It all happened.
You raise a good point.

But then we have to ask what would the "real" Kara/Karen do in a situation like this?
We could say based on what is currently in the comics, keeping in mind that right
now she is semi-benched. Or each of us individually has our own sense of how
Kara would feel about the whole S issue. I don't see her wearing it myself.
But others could point to other examples to say why, yes she could. Isn't the current
state of DC Comics wonderful?

The possibilities are endless!

[achilles]

We are back to the fact that there is no continuity or canon anymore. It all happened.
You raise a good point.

But then we have to ask what would the "real" Kara/Karen do in a situation like this?
We could say based on what is currently in the comics, keeping in mind that right
now she is semi-benched. Or each of us individually has our own sense of how
Kara would feel about the whole S issue. I don't see her wearing it myself.
But others could point to other examples to say why, yes she could. Isn't the current
state of DC Comics wonderful?

The possibilities are endless!

Well, you can see why DC wants to have her wear the S. It's marketing, pure and simple. Wear that, and even new fans will know basically who she is and what to expect from her. And as PG fans, if DC is right and wearing the S will help sell her, we should also want that. Assuming it doesn't change much about her character. One possibility would be to have her wear a blue version of the S, and have that mean something to her and to every other Kryptonian. Treat it as her personal coat of arms and it no longer conflicts with her feelings to the symbol as related to SSK.

[RobinGA]

I get where you are coming from, if that is true that does make a certain sense. You raise a good point.

But it all depends how you see what DC is doing or not doing with Power Girl. As you can see from my previous
posts that I am pretty cynical and depressed with how they have treated her. I am not alone. I will just say my
friend, you have given me an opportunity to remember the glory days of how Power Girl has been treated.

I think right now they have no real plans for Power Girl. She will continue to show up every once in a while, be
lumped in with the JSA, that will be about it. What costume she wears in that sense is irrelevant. They just haven't
a clue what to do with her, or how to integrate her into the DC world.

I know some of you may be thinking well RobinGA is being unfair.
Well remember the following golden moments in DC treatment of Power Girl:

1. Remember the fun story arc of Power Girl as an Atlantean.

2. How about the fun time when someone at DC let us just get her pregnant?

3. Then there was the whole Power Girl is too powerful so let us make her unable to handle
wooden weapons. That didn't last long. But they have gone back and forth about her various
powers.

4. I am going to be kind to not mention the bizarre relationships they have tried to throw her way.
I mean after the pregnancy it is all uphill right? If a man is breathing, the geniuses at DC
figure Power Girl must be into him.

But I suppose the other way to look at it is she is the ultimate survivor. If Power Girl could survive all of
that, then maybe there is a bright future in front of her.

[RobinGA]

I am including the link for those of you who have never heard of the mystical pregnancy:

https://www.cbr.com/things-that-turn...gin-pregnancy/

[marhawkman]

Well, you can see why DC wants to have her wear the S. It's marketing, pure and simple. Wear that, and even new fans will know basically who she is and what to expect from her. And as PG fans, if DC is right and wearing the S will help sell her, we should also want that. Assuming it doesn't change much about her character. One possibility would be to have her wear a blue version of the S, and have that mean something to her and to every other Kryptonian. Treat it as her personal coat of arms and it no longer conflicts with her feelings to the symbol as related to SSK.

Hmmm Here's my take on it in the form of a minor modification of something by Ian Churchhill:
HuntressPowergirlChurchille.jpg
yeah, rather small, but it's there. Overall much the same look, but also has the crest, and I didn't remove anything of any significance.

[Robanker]

Some versions DO wear it though. Then there's how some versions don't wear it because they feel they haven't earned it...

Those versions are Power Girl in name only.

A full white leotard is better than putting the S on her. I would argue that trying to put her in the S is just thinking of her as a brand from someone who probably thinks of her as "the bitchy Supergirl."

New 52 was the most out of character I've ever seen PG, and that's counting the early post crisis stuff.

She was created to be a woman who refused to be defined by anyone else. Having her put on the family crest made popular by her cousin is full-on erasure for want of making her easier to digest.

I don't understand how anyone who likes her character sees that as good for her. You may as well make her a misogynist Batfam member at that point because you've betrayed everything the character ever set out to say. It's akin to having Diana teach young women to mind their mouths, get married and have three kids like good little women who know their place.

Or having Bruce save someone, hand them an automatic rifle and say "next time kill them all and let God sort them out."

It's a violation of everything PG believes in and her core identity.

[RobinGA]

Robanker has said it perfectly why Kara would not wear the S on her uniform.

I would just add that we need to think of the central place that houses play in
the Kryptonian patriarchy. It is just impossible someone with her views about female
equality aligning herself with that point of view.

Power Girl has no filter, but she is a brilliant woman. Her unwillingness to be pushed
around is an attractive quality.

[marhawkman]

Those versions are Power Girl in name only.

A full white leotard is better than putting the S on her. I would argue that trying to put her in the S is just thinking of her as a brand from someone who probably thinks of her as "the bitchy Supergirl."

New 52 was the most out of character I've ever seen PG, and that's counting the early post crisis stuff.

She was created to be a woman who refused to be defined by anyone else. Having her put on the family crest made popular by her cousin is full-on erasure for want of making her easier to digest.

I don't understand how anyone who likes her character sees that as good for her. You may as well make her a misogynist Batfam member at that point because you've betrayed everything the character ever set out to say. It's akin to having Diana teach young women to mind their mouths, get married and have three kids like good little women who know their place.

Or having Bruce save someone, hand them an automatic rifle and say "next time kill them all and let God sort them out."

It's a violation of everything PG believes in and her core identity.

I think that's a drastic exaggeration and based on a limited view of who the character is and what she represents.

Robanker has said it perfectly why Kara would not wear the S on her uniform.

I would just add that we need to think of the central place that houses play in
the Kryptonian patriarchy. It is just impossible someone with her views about female
equality aligning herself with that point of view.

Power Girl has no filter, but she is a brilliant woman. Her unwillingness to be pushed
around is an attractive quality.

Krypton wasn't really ruled that way though. Not all houses had a man as lead. It was tradition but not everyone actually did that. And even then... it wasn't actually what defined the Kryptonian leadership.

[Robanker]

I think that's a drastic exaggeration and based on a limited view of who the character is and what she represents.
Krypton wasn't really ruled that way though. Not all houses had a man as lead. It was tradition but not everyone actually did that. And even then... it wasn't actually what defined the Kryptonian leadership.

Agree to disagree then. I can't see any upside to putting her in an S shield that doesn't just erase her identity for putting her into someone else's, such as Supergirl or Superwoman.

But she wouldn't be Power Girl anymore.

[RobinGA]

I've enjoyed our conversation today. It has allowed a break from editing.

I think that we just have an honest difference how we view Kara and Kryptonian society.
Which I think is one of the fun things about DC fandom, you can reach different conclusions.

I would just add one historical point that might make more understandable women taking an occasional leadership
roles within Kryptonian families. If you think about the experience of the aristocracy on Earth it
was not at all common for women to be called as a Queen, to rule for a time until a son, kinsman
was ready to rule as the leader of a house. This extended as well to non-noble people in colonial
America when women might temporarily take charge of the family, until a son was of legal age.
The term back then in the 1600s and 1700s was Deputy Husband. Not trying to argue, but
just giving a little more context. My own take is that Kryptonian society was one where women could
participate, but men were running things. Of course, even in modern Earth society, we have a mixture
of male control with female equality. Sometimes, it is just a little complicated.

[marhawkman]

Agree to disagree then. I can't see any upside to putting her in an S shield that doesn't just erase her identity for putting her into someone else's, such as Supergirl or Superwoman.

But she wouldn't be Power Girl anymore.

The problem I see with this logic... is that it's mixing in and out of universe reasons. For in-universe reasons she has just as much right to wear the crest of the House of El as Kal-El does. She's his OLDER cousin(among other reasons). Also you're defining identity in what seems to be a very shallow way. Did it "erase" her identity to put on the Nightwing costume? It certainly didn't change the way she acts. Like that alt-U version of Powergirl who wore the logo.... she was the hero and her world's version of Superman was her sidekick. What happened when Darkseid attacked? The usual catastrophic fist fight... So if the only real change is a single logo.... how does that "erase her identity"?

I've enjoyed our conversation today. It has allowed a break from editing.

I think that we just have an honest difference how we view Kara and Kryptonian society.
Which I think is one of the fun things about DC fandom, you can reach different conclusions.

I would just add one historical point that might make more understandable women taking an occasional leadership
roles within Kryptonian families. If you think about the experience of the aristocracy on Earth it
was not at all common for women to be called as a Queen, to rule for a time until a son, kinsman
was ready to rule as the leader of a house. This extended as well to non-noble people in colonial
America when women might temporarily take charge of the family, until a son was of legal age.
The term back then in the 1600s and 1700s was Deputy Husband. Not trying to argue, but
just giving a little more context. My own take is that Kryptonian society was one where women could
participate, but men were running things. Of course, even in modern Earth society, we have a mixture
of male control with female equality. Sometimes, it is just a little complicated.

Yeah, but.... is that how Kryptonians do it in canon? I don't think so.

[achilles]

It would be nice if while writing PG in whatever book she winds up in, they could revise any of the rather sexist constructions of Krypton they may currently have. In other words, ditch any dependencies the symbol of the House of El (L) might have. So that a woman wearing it would not even symbolically be in an inferior position by wearing it. It should be a symbol for everyone who is a member of the House.

Once you do that, there remains no good reason for PG to reject wearing the symbol, which by then would simply be an act of honoring her family and her planet, which PG never was against. Honestly, that one scene is the big justification for her refusal. It was in character for PG at the time, but she has grown and changed quite a bit since then, and no longer has a chip on her should of that size, (she still has it, it's just a bit more moderate). It might be time to at least look at the subject again. After all, when she said that, there was no way the other JSAers would have chosen her as the leader of the JSA, and no way she would have been good at the role had they done so. As opposed to the last time we saw the OG version of the character when she had grown to the point where she was a good leader. Why is it strange to think she might have changed her attitude toward that?

[marhawkman]

It would be nice if while writing PG in whatever book she winds up in, they could revise any of the rather sexist constructions of Krypton they may currently have. In other words, ditch any dependencies the symbol of the House of El (L) might have. So that a woman wearing it would not even symbolically be in an inferior position by wearing it. It should be a symbol for everyone who is a member of the House.

What's the most recent comic where that was an actual plot point in the comic? Is that even part of the current continuity?

[achilles]

What's the most recent comic where that was an actual plot point in the comic? Is that even part of the current continuity?

I don't know. But they should explicitly show what Krypton did in that respect. You could in fact argue the other way; suggesting that a sexist Krypton, and a PG or SG trying to overcome that legacy at least in their minds as a legitimate plot point developing their characters. It's not what I prefer, but it could be argued so with considerable legitimacy. In which case, PG certainly wouldn't want to wear the S, at least as one of her possible reactions. If Krypton was not that way; there remains very little reason why PG would turn down wearing the S. Especially if she lived on Krypton long enough to develop a sense of what it was, and what she was. Then she'd probably discount what humans thought with respect to her being subservient to Kal-L because they saw him first, (even if she was older, which...she was).

In fact, I see PG as really not caring all that much what others think of her, but YMMV with that.