Karen Starr Power Girl Appreciation 2021

[Robanker]

You guys have some good ideas for Galatea, but sadly clones never work for me. I don't know why, but the idea of an evil mirror puts me to sleep. I think Reverse Flash only started to really work for me when it was very clear that aside from his powers, Eobard was very much his own character (and the "IT WAS ME, BARRY" meme cemented his character).

So Divine, Galatea, they always feel like a dead-end for me because they can never be more than "the hero, but an asshole" which doesn't really challenge them in any way other than the physical. Good villains challenge the hero on some level of their thematic. Perhaps playing up Karen's imposter syndrome with the clone being the genuine imposter is something to explore, but I don't know if I'll ever be sold on clones.

[achilles]

You could just use the second Max Lord created clone. He may or may not have programmed her personality the way he did with Divine. Since well... he never actually finished the cloning process. But a mature Kryptonian, even an unconscious one in a stasis pod is super-tough, so maybe she did somehow survive the explosion?

EDIT: the key feature here is that you can make up whatever arbitrary excuse to give her whatever personality you want.

This was a thing I had a real problem with. Silvana allows as how it's...EASY to clone a Kryptonian, and a fully functional one at that. I would prefer that it's impossible for any human, even Luthor or Silvana, and get it right. Yes, yes, they showed the failures, but my point it that cloning a Kryptonian should be nearly impossible. Even Darkseid shouldn't be able to do it that well, (for practical reasons as well as several stories have shown. And fix the Kryptonite thing. Prime isn't effected by it because all the stuff from his universe is gone and there is none of hit kind in the main universe. But PG is effected by Kryptonite from any universe, (except red Kryptonite, which does nothing to her for some reason.) Either PG is NOT effected by alternate universe K, or Prime IS. I hate inconsistency just for the plot purposes.

Also, I have a Prime question which maybe someone here can answer. Was he so overwhelmingly powerful before Johns got his hands on him? Also, during his big return after COIE, wasn't he wearing armor from the Anti-Monitor? Which should be anti-matter? For that matter, how does the Anti-Monitor touch anything including air and ground without blowing up himself? I mean that's the thing with anti matter and regular matter, they annihilate each other.

[achilles]

You guys have some good ideas for Galatea, but sadly clones never work for me. I don't know why, but the idea of an evil mirror puts me to sleep. I think Reverse Flash only started to really work for me when it was very clear that aside from his powers, Eobard was very much his own character (and the "IT WAS ME, BARRY" meme cemented his character).

So Divine, Galatea, they always feel like a dead-end for me because they can never be more than "the hero, but an asshole" which doesn't really challenge them in any way other than the physical. Good villains challenge the hero on some level of their thematic. Perhaps playing up Karen's imposter syndrome with the clone being the genuine imposter is something to explore, but I don't know if I'll ever be sold on clones.

I don't know if this would satisfy you misgivings, which are ones I do agree with. My thought was having whichever clone, Galatea due to its classic origin for me, not just be a bad guy. As I said, making her manipulated and brainwashed, (something I'm willing to accept in a new born clone, but not the classic PG, who gets that too often, making her seem weak minded, which she's not), and the having a story where instead of the JLU solution of fighting without even trying to talk her down or understand her or show any compassion to someone where after all, SG was dealing with an older version of herself....very callously; the real PG actually helps her get better mentally.

Another possibility is for Darkseid to come up with a working, though entirely homicidal PG clone and unleash her on the galaxy. Perhaps even a more powerful PG. Eh, just spitballing here, waiting for you guys to sanity check my "ideas". All too often I think I have great ideas...that aren't. I suspect the same thing happens at DC, but they won't point out why they're wrong. If I'm wrong, though, I hope you guys point out all the flaws in my thinking and even offer suggestions for improvement.

BTW, I should point out that at no point did I envision any version of a PG clone sticking around. Whether dying heroically, or simply leaving for parts unknown, I don't see them as much more than a one or two time feature.

[achilles]

You could just use the second Max Lord created clone. He may or may not have programmed her personality the way he did with Divine. Since well... he never actually finished the cloning process. But a mature Kryptonian, even an unconscious one in a stasis pod is super-tough, so maybe she did somehow survive the explosion?

EDIT: the key feature here is that you can make up whatever arbitrary excuse to give her whatever personality you want.

Oh, surviving the explosion of Krypton is no great feat. One of my suggestions (that I don't insist on), was for Kara to be a lifelong wannabe astronaut and explorer, in which case she probably was not even on Krypton when it went the big sparkler thing. Or perhaps she was Krypton's version of a super-soldier on patrol. Or any of many other ways. This is of course for the classic PG, not any of her clones ...so I was not directly responding to the post save to suggest ways of surviving the explosion. Maybe as part of the supersoldier treatment, (assuming anyone at all besides me finds that at all interesting, and also assuming whatever the Kryptonians used was vasly more advanced and powerful than Captain America's stuff plus "vita rays", (an aside, I LOVED Evans as Cap), they used a more advanced version of the Doomsday treatment available in on infusion instead of having to kill her over and over as with Doomsday, and obviously is couldn't physically deform her as it did Doomsday. Again, just throwing out thoughts here to see if I'm getting it wrong or not.

Above all, however, her personality must not change. It's what attracted me to the character in the first place, not the drawings, not the powers, though in someone named "Power Girl" you'd better justify that name constantly.

[achilles]

Another question for you guys. Mind control. PG seems to be either completely vulnerable to mind control, or not at all. Max easily controls her, enough to get her to decimate the JLI, fortunately without any permanent consequences, while Saturn Queen....simply can't touch her mind and opts to try and execute her instead. All the while controlling Supergirl.

Which is it? Would that be a good power for PG; to be able to prevent mind control? Even if other Kryptonians can't? And isn't there a Kryptonian martial art that deals with mental combat, as well as one for physical combat? If she was an expert or master of those, it would give a good explanation as to why SQ couldn't do squat to PG mentally.

What say you guys, should she have this power, and how would you explain it and use in in story if you like the idea?

[achilles]

Also, just for fun, what song to you think best personifies PG's personality?

[achilles]

How about Yuga Khan as her big bad? Yes, yes, there are plenty or objections to that, mainly leveling the playing field. Here's a couple, but only a couple of ways to do that. Kara does indeed take an experimental super soldier treatment that enables her to compete with Yuga. Or perhaps it enables her to survive close contact with a black hole which changes her even more. Hell, this being comics why not have her get sucked into said black hole, and eventually crawl her way out, (a live Kirby on much acid would have been the guy to draw that), with enhanced powers, and perhaps new ones. Or maybe, unlike every other Kryptonian I've ever read about, she's figured out the implications of her powers, and can use them in ways other Kryptonians can't. Maybe those Kryptonian martial arts can help, depending on how good you want to make her?

Maybe she simply catches Khan when he's hurt or weaker than normal. Whatever, Superman and just about everyone else fights Darkseid. Why not PG get someone different?

[Ascended]

You guys have some good ideas for Galatea, but sadly clones never work for me.

Well I wouldn't take it personally if you skipped my Galatea arc. But you'd miss out on some deep dives into Karen's character and history.

So, okay, the way I'd approach the Galatea thing.....most versions of ancient Krypton have a clone war that decimated civilization and left a deep stigma against cloning and genetic engineering right? And Karen would share that bias. She doesn't like "copies." And where is she? On a whole world (a whole universe!) that's a copy of the earth she knew, surrounded by copies of people she loved. Sure, it's alternate dimensions and not clones, but in a illogical, emotional way, it *feels* the same. And that's part of why she keeps the Kents at arm's length despite getting along with them, it's why she struggles to put down roots. And to make it even worse, here, *she* is the copy. It makes her feel like a clone, and is something she'd lowkey struggle with that ties into the other aspects of the "imposter" themes that run as undercurrents in her personality.

When she's confronted by her own clone? That's a lot for her. That forces her to deal with these issues in a direct way.

As for Galatea, she'd be taking all these imposter themes and bringing them to the fore. What does she want? To live her own life, free from the circumstances that made her, free from the shadow of someone more popular (her creator, Ultra or Max or whoever). Sound familiar? Just like Karen, right? But in this, we flip the typical Clark/Bizarro dynamic; Clark wants to help Bizarro grow and be the best person he can, but Bizarro's ability to change is limited. Here, Galatea wants to grow and change and improve, but is Karen willing to help?

It's not a story that puts Karen in the best light I admit, but I don't believe *every* story requires the hero to be the very definition of positivity and progressiveness; they need their flaws and blind spots too yknow? Dealing with her biases gives Karen something to work on and some character development and the arc gives her a chance to fail (every hero needs to lose sometimes). And over the long-term, we'd maybe have a chance to see Galatea build her own life...which is full of possibility. What if Gal decides that, yknow what, that Vartox guy is pretty great, and Maxima comes looking for the home wrecker at Starrware, thinking it was Karen and not Gal? What if Gal decides to solve world hunger by terraforming huge parts of earth? Or the moon? Countless fun "mistaken identity" stories there, once Gal eventually evolves beyond straight villain status (if she does, maybe her and Karen end up hating each other so much it's always violence when they meet?).

None of this is to change your mind or anything, but you gave me an opening to elaborate on my ideas, so......

[RobinGA]

Miranda Lambert, Little Red Wagon

[achilles]

Well I wouldn't take it personally if you skipped my Galatea arc. But you'd miss out on some deep dives into Karen's character and history.

So, okay, the way I'd approach the Galatea thing.....most versions of ancient Krypton have a clone war that decimated civilization and left a deep stigma against cloning and genetic engineering right? And Karen would share that bias. She doesn't like "copies." And where is she? On a whole world (a whole universe!) that's a copy of the earth she knew, surrounded by copies of people she loved. Sure, it's alternate dimensions and not clones, but in a illogical, emotional way, it *feels* the same. And that's part of why she keeps the Kents at arm's length despite getting along with them, it's why she struggles to put down roots. And to make it even worse, here, *she* is the copy. It makes her feel like a clone, and is something she'd lowkey struggle with that ties into the other aspects of the "imposter" themes that run as undercurrents in her personality.

When she's confronted by her own clone? That's a lot for her. That forces her to deal with these issues in a direct way.

As for Galatea, she'd be taking all these imposter themes and bringing them to the fore. What does she want? To live her own life, free from the circumstances that made her, free from the shadow of someone more popular (her creator, Ultra or Max or whoever). Sound familiar? Just like Karen, right? But in this, we flip the typical Clark/Bizarro dynamic; Clark wants to help Bizarro grow and be the best person he can, but Bizarro's ability to change is limited. Here, Galatea wants to grow and change and improve, but is Karen willing to help?

It's not a story that puts Karen in the best light I admit, but I don't believe *every* story requires the hero to be the very definition of positivity and progressiveness; they need their flaws and blind spots too yknow? Dealing with her biases gives Karen something to work on and some character development and the arc gives her a chance to fail (every hero needs to lose sometimes). And over the long-term, we'd maybe have a chance to see Galatea build her own life...which is full of possibility. What if Gal decides that, yknow what, that Vartox guy is pretty great, and Maxima comes looking for the home wrecker at Starrware, thinking it was Karen and not Gal? What if Gal decides to solve world hunger by terraforming huge parts of earth? Or the moon? Countless fun "mistaken identity" stories there, once Gal eventually evolves beyond straight villain status (if she does, maybe her and Karen end up hating each other so much it's always violence when they meet?).

None of this is to change your mind or anything, but you gave me an opening to elaborate on my ideas, so......

It is a shame you can't like posts here, because this would get one from me. This was exactly the sort of thing I want from PG, the opportunity to show real character development with logical changes in both parties; to show their emotional growth. Sure, I like my superhero slugfests as much as anyone, but character is what keeps me interested and invested in certain characters.

[Robanker]

Another question for you guys. Mind control. PG seems to be either completely vulnerable to mind control, or not at all. Max easily controls her, enough to get her to decimate the JLI, fortunately without any permanent consequences, while Saturn Queen....simply can't touch her mind and opts to try and execute her instead. All the while controlling Supergirl.

Which is it? Would that be a good power for PG; to be able to prevent mind control? Even if other Kryptonians can't? And isn't there a Kryptonian martial art that deals with mental combat, as well as one for physical combat? If she was an expert or master of those, it would give a good explanation as to why SQ couldn't do squat to PG mentally.

What say you guys, should she have this power, and how would you explain it and use in in story if you like the idea?

I like the idea that Max worked with her so long he knows how to make her vulnerable so he can influence her. I think she'd build up some resistance over time like any costumed hero would, but he knows her well enough he can know when to strike. Get her angry or vulnerable, then do it, you know?

I don't know about making it a power, though. Unless you're telekinetic yourself, I think it just comes down to the strength of your will. She has a strong one, but if a GL is able to get mind controlled a Kryptonian should too. That said, I think she's always in there trying to get control back. I don't think there's a telepath strong enough to completely dominate Karen's mind. They'll always feel resistance.

I can see her having more mental fortitude than Clark or Kara since she's dealt with more loss and come out pretty damn strong and self-actualized, so it stands to reason of most she'd be more resistant, but I don't think it's a power nor should it be. Honestly, we'd likely never be able to tell the difference.

Also, just for fun, what song to you think best personifies PG's personality?

She's the Women's Lib Kryptonian. She takes no lip, but she's sassy as hell. Her best quality is absolutely that she suffers no fools and doesn't let anyone tell her what she can or can't be. In that respect, you kind of have to go two ways of it.

Probably "You Don't Own Me" by Lesley Gore and "Respect" by Aretha Franklin. She's a fun character. I don't think she hates dudes as so many assholes think feminists do, she just wants to be treated with dignity and respect, and neither of those songs feel very much like "ugh, guys suck" as much as "I'm fucking great and I'm gonna do me, maybe you can come along for the ride if you're great too, but either way I'm doin' me and you gotta live with that" which is what Karen seems to be about in my reading.

Well I wouldn't take it personally if you skipped my Galatea arc. But you'd miss out on some deep dives into Karen's character and history.

So, okay, the way I'd approach the Galatea thing.....most versions of ancient Krypton have a clone war that decimated civilization and left a deep stigma against cloning and genetic engineering right? And Karen would share that bias. She doesn't like "copies." And where is she? On a whole world (a whole universe!) that's a copy of the earth she knew, surrounded by copies of people she loved. Sure, it's alternate dimensions and not clones, but in a illogical, emotional way, it *feels* the same. And that's part of why she keeps the Kents at arm's length despite getting along with them, it's why she struggles to put down roots. And to make it even worse, here, *she* is the copy. It makes her feel like a clone, and is something she'd lowkey struggle with that ties into the other aspects of the "imposter" themes that run as undercurrents in her personality.

When she's confronted by her own clone? That's a lot for her. That forces her to deal with these issues in a direct way.

As for Galatea, she'd be taking all these imposter themes and bringing them to the fore. What does she want? To live her own life, free from the circumstances that made her, free from the shadow of someone more popular (her creator, Ultra or Max or whoever). Sound familiar? Just like Karen, right? But in this, we flip the typical Clark/Bizarro dynamic; Clark wants to help Bizarro grow and be the best person he can, but Bizarro's ability to change is limited. Here, Galatea wants to grow and change and improve, but is Karen willing to help?

It's not a story that puts Karen in the best light I admit, but I don't believe *every* story requires the hero to be the very definition of positivity and progressiveness; they need their flaws and blind spots too yknow? Dealing with her biases gives Karen something to work on and some character development and the arc gives her a chance to fail (every hero needs to lose sometimes). And over the long-term, we'd maybe have a chance to see Galatea build her own life...which is full of possibility. What if Gal decides that, yknow what, that Vartox guy is pretty great, and Maxima comes looking for the home wrecker at Starrware, thinking it was Karen and not Gal? What if Gal decides to solve world hunger by terraforming huge parts of earth? Or the moon? Countless fun "mistaken identity" stories there, once Gal eventually evolves beyond straight villain status (if she does, maybe her and Karen end up hating each other so much it's always violence when they meet?).

None of this is to change your mind or anything, but you gave me an opening to elaborate on my ideas, so......

I think that's about the best way I can see it being handled, but I fear what happens when "PG's less moral doppelganger" is added into the mix because you just know someone is going to turn it around and reveal it was PG wrecking home to stir up drama. I have no doubts it'll be some Tom King-esque blindspot for characterization or a full-on decision to stick it to "the mouthy bitch Supergirl."

A lot of what we're discussing could be done with Atlee too, sans the homewrecking stuff. PG being torn by her friend and sidekick developing into a hero that she doesn't always agree with causes a lot of friction and we can see where Karen herself falls short and needs to grow.

I'd still read it. I don't like Winick and I suffered through him writing a clone arc, so that should say how much I care about PG and want her to succeed.

I agree entirely that characters should have some flaws to grow from, but they do actually need to grow from them. Karen is pretty political insofar as her feminist bent goes, so I can see her getting heated and maybe hurting some feelings she didn't intend to. She's short-tempered at times so I can see her exchanging barbs or fists she didn't need to. This isn't Marvel, our heroes need not be a neurotic mess, but I do want to see a PG who does make mistakes and have to learn from them.

[Ascended]

I think that's about the best way I can see it being handled, but I fear what happens when "PG's less moral doppelganger" is added into the mix because you just know someone is going to turn it around and reveal it was PG wrecking home to stir up drama. I have no doubts it'll be some Tom King-esque blindspot for characterization or a full-on decision to stick it to "the mouthy bitch Supergirl."

Oh certainly. But lesser writers should never be a reason to not do something. And if a bad writer gets on the character they'll be bad no matter what is or isn't in the toy box, so I figure you go nuts and tell your best story and if the next guy screws it up, well, that's on him and hopefully the readers respond by dropping the book.

A lot of what we're discussing could be done with Atlee too, sans the homewrecking stuff. PG being torn by her friend and sidekick developing into a hero that she doesn't always agree with causes a lot of friction and we can see where Karen herself falls short and needs to grow.

Sure, it's writing so there's a million ways to skin a cat. But a clone, and using that to tie into Karen's childhood and the history of her Krypton, that's more layered than just using Atlee.

I'd still read it. I don't like Winick and I suffered through him writing a clone arc, so that should say how much I care about PG and want her to succeed.

Well then, in my little hypothetical PG book that'll never happen, I'll try to get through the Galatea arc quickly for you. I could probably squeeze the intro arc into three issues.

I agree entirely that characters should have some flaws to grow from, but they do actually need to grow from them. Karen is pretty political insofar as her feminist bent goes, so I can see her getting heated and maybe hurting some feelings she didn't intend to. She's short-tempered at times so I can see her exchanging barbs or fists she didn't need to. This isn't Marvel, our heroes need not be a neurotic mess, but I do want to see a PG who does make mistakes and have to learn from them.

Absolutely. And let me stress, I'm not inclined to make Karen a hot mess of a person. I'm not trying to make her into a female Peter Parker or Tony Stark, just a well rounded, multi-faceted character.

[Ascended]

It is a shame you can't like posts here, because this would get one from me.

Aww, thanks for the kind words.

[Robanker]

Oh certainly. But lesser writers should never be a reason to not do something. And if a bad writer gets on the character they'll be bad no matter what is or isn't in the toy box, so I figure you go nuts and tell your best story and if the next guy screws it up, well, that's on him and hopefully the readers respond by dropping the book.



Sure, it's writing so there's a million ways to skin a cat. But a clone, and using that to tie into Karen's childhood and the history of her Krypton, that's more layered than just using Atlee.



Well then, in my little hypothetical PG book that'll never happen, I'll try to get through the Galatea arc quickly for you. I could probably squeeze the intro arc into three issues.



Absolutely. And let me stress, I'm not inclined to make Karen a hot mess of a person. I'm not trying to make her into a female Peter Parker or Tony Stark, just a well rounded, multi-faceted character.

Bud, I'm not even joking, I'd be more inclined to read your pitch than I would have the writers in DC's stable. Don't sell yourself short. I can set aside my apparent prejudice of clones long enough to read an arc. Finish it when the story's done... So long as it doesn't drag like the King Rath arc in Aquaman. Gooooood lord.

Hell, one of my pitches is just a mini about PG finally embracing this Earth as her home and setting down roots for good. What does she even do, and who gets in her way? I think the biggest problem the most recent run faced in that respect is it asked "where does PG hang her cape," but not really "why." She just picked New York (likely because the team liked New York) and made a company that she was nebulously interested in running again. It all worked, but I forgive anyone in asking "why though," because I can't recall if there was an answer.

Honestly, Karen's settling on our Earth is a pretty good metaphor for leaving home for the first time and having to decide your place in the world. That's a story I'm still waiting to see told, so I figured I'd take an inept crack at it.

The other pitch I posted in last year's thread and got some decent buzz. I'll quote it here for ease of access:

I'm going to think on it a bit myself, but I'm definitely putting Atlee on the roster for the rookie position. If Karen were to ever have a sidekick, it's her.
So I finally got a minute to follow up on my own prompt!

My roster would be:

Karen Starr
Atlee (Rookie)
Tanya Spears (Rookie)
Nightwing (Contemporary)
Black Lightning (Veteran)

Area of focus: The Weird. Essentially, they're the halfway mark between The Terrifics and Doom Patrol. I would not go multiversal too often, but nothing is really outside the realm of possibility with this team. Mad Scientists? Sentient colors invading our reality and changing our perceptions? Sky's the limit. Think silver age creativity in terms of how out there the plots can go, but with a strong focus on the team's interpersonal relationships and an adventurous tone.

Group dynamic: Power Girl is the lead and does so with equal parts sass and heroism. We all know what she's about so I won't go on too much. Nightwing provides the same level of enthusiasm and experience, but a different, more grounded viewpoint to help Karen make better decisions. He's a trusted peer with a lot of leadership experience, so he knows exactly the kind of input to give and how to step back and let her lead. Possible romantic tension, but not really required. Atlee is Karen's sidekick, essentially, and still learning how to be a hero in a group dynamic as she mostly just works with Karen. She would act as the audience surrogate, asking our questions and raising our concerns or observations regarding their adventures. Tanya is our resident genius and tech expert. While Karen has some experience with Kryptonian science and software development from Starrware (Dick as well from his experience with WayneTech and history as a crime fighter), Tanya is on another level. She has more experience than Atlee, but less than Karen and Dick. She too is there to learn, but she's more sure of herself in a group dynamic and has a lot to offer based on her skill set. She eventually grows out of the Power Girl identity and forges her own. Black Lightning is our resident veteran. Even compared to Karen and Nightwing, Jeff's seen it all, and not just as a costumed adventurer. Olympian. Educator. Former presidential cabinet member. Jeff has done everything he can, from every angle, to be the change he wants to see in the world. While the others are often having just a little too much fun and leading with their emotions, Jeff's learned to harness them better than most and helps temper the team and keep them focused. He is not, however, the stoic dad of the team. He has his limits and things that set him off, and he doesn't hold it against the others when they lose their cool, though he does do his best to remind everyone (including himself) that every mistake is one to learn from, if not verbally then by example. Admittedly this is at odds with him in BatO right now, but I'm thinking of Jeff more akin to Pre-Flashpoint or even on television. After Karen, he's the strongest member on the team and uses his experience in all walks of life to help them develop into better, more effective heroes.

I'm terrible at names so I'd probably riff on Kirby and go with Challengers of the Unknown or New Challengers.

[achilles]

Anyone remember The League of Titans? For those who don't, it was part of Conway's "The Last Days Of Animal Man", a future version...I guess of both teams combined, Conway never really said.

The roster was interesting. Superman, Power Girl, Nightwing, Starfire, Wally, and IIRC a whale GL. Formidable line-up.