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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Giving effective agency is always a problem when you have a non-superpowered (or non-superhero) co-star in a superhero series. At the end of the day, the genre is an action-orientated one and if a co-star cannot engage in these scenes they are frequently (and understandably so) sidelined.
    Ummm I’m sorry no I’m calling absolute and complete BS on this. This is an excuse for poor writing. And it’s just plain wrong.

    For staters, you’ve already been proven wrong by Lois and Clark which was ::extremely good at giving both Lois and Clark Equal POV, equal empathy and equal story focus. And there was PLENTY of action in LnC. There was a lot more action than people even remember was there. The difference was that the show understood what it was about and who it was about and it stayed true to that vision.

    A show called SUPERMAN and LOIS should provide Equal POV to both Superman and Lois and “action” has nothing to do with it. That’s a lousy excuse for both bad writing and it excuses the kind of sexism that is still a real problem in a lot of these writer’s rooms, Lois Lane does not have to be able to fly in order the receive equal POV in a show that bears her name. And, again, this isn’t some kind of fantasy as it was quite literally done to great success 20 years ago.

    If writers can’t manage to treat Lois Lane as well on this show as writers did over 20 years ago than we have some big problems to address with both the showrunner, the writers and the network. It means they see bad at their jobs.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 01-12-2021 at 07:00 PM.

  2. #77
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Ummm I’m sorry no I’m calling absolute and complete BS on this. This is an excuse for poor writing. And it’s just plain wrong.....
    In Lois and Clark, the character of Lois was presented as the love interest of the hero rather than a true co-star. Many times she was the damsel in distress Superman had to rescue and an object of desire who motivated his actions. This show is shooting for a different dynamic one which will be extremely difficult to achieve. But I digress, this is not the thread for such a discussion.
    Last edited by Celgress; 01-12-2021 at 08:35 PM.
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  3. #78
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Ummm I’m sorry no I’m calling absolute and complete BS on this. This is an excuse for poor writing. And it’s just plain wrong.

    For staters, you’ve already been proven wrong by Lois and Clark which was ::extremely good at giving both Lois and Clark Equal POV, equal empathy and equal story focus. And there was PLENTY of action in LnC. There was a lot more action than people even remember was there. The difference was that the show understood what it was about and who it was about and it stayed true to that vision.

    A show called SUPERMAN and LOIS should provide Equal POV to both Superman and Lois and “action” has nothing to do with it. That’s a lousy excuse for both bad writing and it excuses the kind of sexism that is still a real problem in a lot of these writer’s rooms, Lois Lane does not have to be able to fly in order the receive equal POV in a show that bears her name. And, again, this isn’t some kind of fantasy as it was quite literally done to great success 20 years ago.

    If writers can’t manage to treat Lois Lane as well on this show as writers did over 20 years ago than we have some big problems to address with both the showrunner, the writers and the network. It means they see bad at their jobs.
    I will never understand how just OG Law & Order alone ran for over 450 episodes and people think it can be hard to write a procedural script for what's effectively a television detective. Yeah, she should be the best journalist ever, but a good portion of that is following leads and putting together the whodunit with some scenes in a bullpen/editor's office instead of precinct. TV is rarely so true-to-life that you have to go deeper than that. Just make the stories compelling. I know "make it good" is the shittiest advice under the sun but really it's not like Lois Lane is a square peg for a round hole. A story where Clark goes to Almerac or the Vega system or something? Sure, you will only be tangentially able to include her into an A or B-plot that ties into that. At best, you have two plots running concurrent where she's our eyes on Metropolis while Clark's away.

    But how often is that going to happen in a story where it's about them raising their family?

    There's no excuse for them to make a Superman and Lois show if they're not interested in her having a ton of agency in most plots. If this was Superman? That's fine. She's his supporting cast in that (and most) premises. One of-- if not the most important member of it-- but she's a supporting player in that instance. She doesn't have to be in every story when that's the case. But they purposely made it the case that she is, so it's time for the CW to put up or shut up. We'll see how it goes.
    Last edited by Robanker; 01-12-2021 at 09:28 PM.

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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    In Lois and Clark, the character of Lois was presented as the love interest of the hero rather than a true co-star. Many times she was the damsel in distress Superman had to rescue and an object of desire who motivated his actions. This show is shooting for a different dynamic one which will be extremely difficult to achieve. But I digress, this is not the thread for such a discussion.
    I’ve watched every episode of LnC. The show is dated as Lois was a 3rd wave feminist in that show which was a response to 90’s feminism but that doesn’t change my point.

    What we are talking about here is POV and agency. Lois Lane can be saved by Superman 100x and it’s not inherently a problem or sexist provided she has pov and agency. Which she absolutely did on that show. Being saved by Superman when you are a human in a world of supernatural threats only threatens equality when pov is not given. If anything, Lois was ::the:: star of LnC as she was the dynamic figure. Clark himself was a static figure. The narrative was driven by her wants and needs. Did she love Clark? Did she love Superman? What does Lois want? What can he do to give her what she wants? Etc. Again, love stories are not inherently bad or lacking in agency. That’s a dated view of feminism. Clark can be chasing Lois driven by love for her for years and she can still drive the story.

    Superman and Lois comes to us during a different time and, thankfully, a more nuanced age of understanding equality and feminism in many respects. It should be even BETTER than LnC at giving Lois equal POV in a show that bears her name. Period. End of story. Is it challenging? Yes. But, as someone said below, put up or shut up.

    Truly did not mean for this to turn into a debate and I agree it doesn’t belong in this thread.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 01-13-2021 at 10:04 AM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I will never understand how just OG Law & Order alone ran for over 450 episodes and people think it can be hard to write a procedural script for what's effectively a television detective. Yeah, she should be the best journalist ever, but a good portion of that is following leads and putting together the whodunit with some scenes in a bullpen/editor's office instead of precinct. TV is rarely so true-to-life that you have to go deeper than that. Just make the stories compelling. I know "make it good" is the shittiest advice under the sun but really it's not like Lois Lane is a square peg for a round hole. A story where Clark goes to Almerac or the Vega system or something? Sure, you will only be tangentially able to include her into an A or B-plot that ties into that. At best, you have two plots running concurrent where she's our eyes on Metropolis while Clark's away.

    But how often is that going to happen in a story where it's about them raising their family?

    There's no excuse for them to make a Superman and Lois show if they're not interested in her having a ton of agency in most plots. If this was Superman? That's fine. She's his supporting cast in that (and most) premises. One of-- if not the most important member of it-- but she's a supporting player in that instance. She doesn't have to be in every story when that's the case. But they purposely made it the case that she is, so it's time for the CW to put up or shut up. We'll see how it goes.
    Put up or shut up indeed! You said it here. Her name is in the title so act like it and I do not accept the excuse that it’s just so hard to do. We aren’t asking for her to be able to literally fly. We just want her to have equal POV. Which should not be too much to ask in a story literally about their FAMILY.

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Beautiful_Temptress_ View Post
    You know, I do love Lois in that hair color even if I probably wouldn't color her that way. It does remind me of the era where she and Clark were dating and eventually married, so that's probably part of it. Some Lois and Clark nostalgia.

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