Natasha Romanov: Black Widow Appreciation 2021

[inisideguy]

The one thing that bugged me in the movie wasn't the taskmaster stuff. I don't know why that didn't bug me but it didn't. Anyway, my one weird complaint was at the end when BW stays behind and gets picked up by Ross. I assume he arrested her and then just let her go? Which is fine but they didn't show it. It just felt off to me.

[John Venus]

So now that she's done how does everyone rank Natasha's portrayals in the MCU?

Black Widow
Winter Soldier
Avengers
Civil War
Endgame
Infinity War
Iron Man 2
Age of Ultron

[John Venus]

First of all, Feige announced a female-led movie in 2014 so obviously Perlmutter wasn't that influential any more at that point. As I said Feige could have given that spot to BW if he were that passionate about it but he chose to give it to Captain Marvel instead.

Perlmutter was completely out in 2015. After that Feige changed the phase 3 slate and kicked Perlmutter's pet project Inhumans out and shoved the Ant-Man sequel in. This was another chance to use a slot for the BW movie if he were really passionate about it but again he chose differently.

So no, Perlmutter can only be made responsible for phases 1 and 2, after that Feige made the calls he wanted. This movie not happening in phase 3 is on Feige.

Yeah. Ant-Man seemed to be there just to have Scott trapped in the Quantum Zone so they could set up time travel in Endgame. We know Fiege's an old school fanboy and with the debacle surrounding the first Ant-Man movie, the idea of Wasp being the first MCU female character to have her name in the title and introducing Janet before Carol's solo probably appealed to him.

I think BW should have been set after Endgame. I would have been fine with no Spider-Man movie for a year or so and none of the rumors about what they are doing with No Way Home appeals to me at all.

[Spider-Chan]

So no, Perlmutter can only be made responsible for phases 1 and 2, after that Feige made the calls he wanted. This movie not happening in phase 3 is on Feige.

There's a lot going on film productions. It's years of planning, the fact that Inhumans even got announced -a well known pet project for Perlmutter- and got so advanced that the scraps got turned into a TV show shows how much of his hands still influenced even after he got booted by Disney. You cannot just say "I'm not making this movie anymore, I'm gonna do this movie instead".

Let me give you a example of how complicated and the amount of planning there is. I worked as a sort of intern (I was still studying and the writer/director is a friend and mentor of mine, a course I took with him in high school was what encouraged me to pursue filmmaking) in what is the most expensive locally produced feature length film shot in my city (budget of around $250,000 USD, considered very expensive for a independent production in Mexico, let alone my region). Pre production started in 2014, it started shooting in spring 2017, without counting that the director had been working in the script for around 3 years before pre-production started. After that, post production and reshoots. Reshoots couldn't be done until spring 2018 in order to have consistency with what was previously filmed and to fit with the actors' schedule, who didn't even lived here, they were flown from Mexico City since there's practically no film industry here. Post-production continues and rough cuts are shown in film festivals in order to get distribution for it. By 2019 the film is finally done and was aiming for a fall 2020 release, but then covid happened and now it's going for a stream release this year.

Now that's a very extreme production done in a city with no filmmaking industry, but it gives you a general idea of how long a production takes, from even before pre-production to release. Marvel Studios definitely has advantages of being, well, a very established film studio backed by Disney, but that doesn't make it easier to simply do whatever movie you want whenever you like. Marvel movies come in clockwork because it takes years of planning behind them. I cannot even think how writing for a Marvel movie even works; these are movies that are interconnected and they influence each other, and all need to remain as consistent as possible. This means you can't even write a potential treatment for a established character, because if a character is going to appear in a movie that is going to be released in 2-3 years and your treatment contradicts what is going to be established in a future movie that you haven't even seen, then that means you'll have to go back to the drawing board and work on what you vaguely know is going on in a unreleased movie that probably is still in pre-production and is still subject to change.

Ant-Man had the big advantage of having the exact same production crew -who already had a solid idea and were pitching ideas since they wrapped the previous one- and filming in the same city, that really speeds up the process. Watching Endgame it's also clear that this wasn't a movie that was brought out of nowhere and it was planned, since many of it's elements are key to it's plot.

All in all, if Feige wouldn't be passionate about this project, he would have just not done it, period. He is not going to ask millions of dollars to Disney just to fulfill a passion project for Johansson. He wouldn't have even bothered on commissioning a script, read it, and demand a rewrite (three people are credited in the writing, two for "story", the last for full script), recruit a director who would fit the job, and then send his people to scout locations in 4 different countries (this process alone is recommended doing with 1-2 years of anticipation before shooting). Laziness and lack of passion from production is something that is always felt in the finished product, and I don't see that in this one, I see the complete opposite.

[Sutekh]

The one thing that bugged me in the movie wasn't the taskmaster stuff. I don't know why that didn't bug me but it didn't. Anyway, my one weird complaint was at the end when BW stays behind and gets picked up by Ross. I assume he arrested her and then just let her go? Which is fine but they didn't show it. It just felt off to me.

I got the impression that she intended to go break out her friends, which she would be ideally positioned to do if *Ross was an idiot and took her straight to them* (which he totally would have done, assuming that taking her gear and putting her in a cell next to the others would somehow render her as 'powerless' as Ant-Man or Falcon).

It wouldn't at all contradict what we saw of Cap coming to rescue the others to find out that Natasha totally helped him get in there and shut stuff down, setting things up for him from the inside, as a 'prisoner.' (We've seen from the first Avengers movie that she does some of her best work when the bad-guy is convinced she's helpless and at his mercy, during the 'reverse interrogation' scene in Russia!)

OR she could have just done some spy stuff and led Ross away from her family, and then evaded him anyway. And *then* maybe hooked up with Cap to spring Clint, Sam, Scott and Wanda.

[chicago_bastard]

There's a lot going on film productions. It's years of planning, the fact that Inhumans even got announced -a well known pet project for Perlmutter- and got so advanced that the scraps got turned into a TV show shows how much of his hands still influenced even after he got booted by Disney.

In 2015 Perlmutter was only stripped of his influence over Marvel Studios but he still kept his influence over Marvel TV. So the reason why his pet project was made into a Marvel TV show was that he was still making the calls for the TV side after 2015, just not for the movie side. That is also why Feige pushed for the Disney+ shows to belong to Marvel Studios and why he always hesitated to officially declare the Marvel TV shows as canon.

You cannot just say "I'm not making this movie anymore, I'm gonna do this movie instead".

Ant-Man had the big advantage of having the exact same production crew -who already had a solid idea and were pitching ideas since they wrapped the previous one- and filming in the same city, that really speeds up the process. Watching Endgame it's also clear that this wasn't a movie that was brought out of nowhere and it was planned, since many of it's elements are key to it's plot.

Well, but that's basically what happened. The Inhumans got kicked and the Ant-Man sequel was announced instead. And from 2015 to 2018/2019 would have easily been enough time even for a movie with a new production crew. But MCU production crews are never mostly new anyway as big parts of the crew like stunt coordinators or production designers and even the screenwriters happen to be in-house employees (Jac Schaeffer and Eric Pearson who are both credited for BW's script definitely are), so it's mainly the directors they get from outside. And pre-production on the actual BW movie started in 2017 and it was ready for a 2020 start so three years are no problem at all.

Let me give you a example of how complicated and the amount of planning there is. I worked as a sort of intern (I was still studying and the writer/director is a friend and mentor of mine, a course I took with him in high school was what encouraged me to pursue filmmaking) in what is the most expensive locally produced feature length film shot in my city (budget of around $250,000 USD, considered very expensive for a independent production in Mexico, let alone my region). Pre production started in 2014, it started shooting in spring 2017, without counting that the director had been working in the script for around 3 years before pre-production started. After that, post production and reshoots. Reshoots couldn't be done until spring 2018 in order to have consistency with what was previously filmed and to fit with the actors' schedule, who didn't even lived here, they were flown from Mexico City since there's practically no film industry here. Post-production continues and rough cuts are shown in film festivals in order to get distribution for it. By 2019 the film is finally done and was aiming for a fall 2020 release, but then covid happened and now it's going for a stream release this year.

Now that's a very extreme production done in a city with no filmmaking industry, but it gives you a general idea of how long a production takes, from even before pre-production to release. Marvel Studios definitely has advantages of being, well, a very established film studio backed by Disney, but that doesn't make it easier to simply do whatever movie you want whenever you like. Marvel movies come in clockwork because it takes years of planning behind them. I cannot even think how writing for a Marvel movie even works; these are movies that are interconnected and they influence each other, and all need to remain as consistent as possible. This means you can't even write a potential treatment for a established character, because if a character is going to appear in a movie that is going to be released in 2-3 years and your treatment contradicts what is going to be established in a future movie that you haven't even seen, then that means you'll have to go back to the drawing board and work on what you vaguely know is going on in a unreleased movie that probably is still in pre-production and is still subject to change.

Thanks for sharing this, I always enjoy reading this kind of stuff. But as you said it's not comparable to Marvel Studios who are a well-oiled machine working with the same crews again and again.

All in all, if Feige wouldn't be passionate about this project, he would have just not done it, period. He is not going to ask millions of dollars to Disney just to fulfill a passion project for Johansson. He wouldn't have even bothered on commissioning a script, read it, and demand a rewrite (three people are credited in the writing, two for "story", the last for full script), recruit a director who would fit the job, and then send his people to scout locations in 4 different countries (this process alone is recommended doing with 1-2 years of anticipation before shooting). Laziness and lack of passion from production is something that is always felt in the finished product, and I don't see that in this one, I see the complete opposite.

It still remains the fact that Feige was able to announce a female-led movie in 2014. If he was able to announce Captain Marvel he could have announced a BW movie, period. It was his call not to do it. Same with Ant-Man 2.

And after deciding to finally make the movie in pase 4 he could at least have vetoed the stupid-ass decision by Markus/McFeely to kill the character off in Endgame prior to her solo movie. He didn't care about that and how that might hurt the movie's reception.

As to why he still greenlit it, besides a feeling of obligation to an actress who devoted ten years to a role that was basically below her claim (she is a much bigger star than all the guys who have solo movies under their belt except RDJ) I guess Feige realized what a bad look it would be for a company that is constantly bragging about diversity and representation to have a character played by the biggest actress in the world for ten years and never even give her one solo movie.

It's important to note that this is the first MCU movie where the star also acted as executive producer. All reports indicate that Scarlett was very involved in production, e.g. it was her decision to hire Cate Shortland as the director and she even persuaded her to accept the offer after she had initially turned it down, so I have the feeling that most of the passion shining through stems from her alone.

As for Feige's interviews I didn't get the same vibe as you. First of all, that guy would make for a good politician as to how much he talks without saying anything. The interviews I came across are just the phrases one expects when you promote a movie. But what really stood out to me was that he was talking about Yelena as much as he did about the title character and that tells me all I need to know about where his biggest passion may have been here.

[kcekada]

Actually Iron Man 2 is the only movie in which she doesn't use her bracelets at all.

I wasn't really referring to her use of bracelets in IM2 -- although I seem to recall she did do something to shock one of the guards. I just thought she had a really kick ass presence in that film.

For those who have seen it -- was it in the theatre or did you stream it? I cancelled by Disney+ last month (don't really care about Loki) -- but I know there is an additional premium to view BW. I'll probably stream it eventually

[inisideguy]

I got the impression that she intended to go break out her friends, which she would be ideally positioned to do if *Ross was an idiot and took her straight to them* (which he totally would have done, assuming that taking her gear and putting her in a cell next to the others would somehow render her as 'powerless' as Ant-Man or Falcon).

It wouldn't at all contradict what we saw of Cap coming to rescue the others to find out that Natasha totally helped him get in there and shut stuff down, setting things up for him from the inside, as a 'prisoner.' (We've seen from the first Avengers movie that she does some of her best work when the bad-guy is convinced she's helpless and at his mercy, during the 'reverse interrogation' scene in Russia!)

OR she could have just done some spy stuff and led Ross away from her family, and then evaded him anyway. And *then* maybe hooked up with Cap to spring Clint, Sam, Scott and Wanda.

Someone on media board said that the director basically left it open on purpose to let us figure out what she did when Ross was driving up. I get that. I just thought it was a weird choice. If she got away, then it would have been nice to see her getting on a motorcycle and take off or something. I mean we know regardless I guess that two weeks later she is not in custody

[chicago_bastard]

I wasn't really referring to her use of bracelets in IM2 -- although I seem to recall she did do something to shock one of the guards. I just thought she had a really kick ass presence in that film.

For those who have seen it -- was it in the theatre or did you stream it? I cancelled by Disney+ last month (don't really care about Loki) -- but I know there is an additional premium to view BW. I'll probably stream it eventually

She used a couple gadgets like taser disks and other stuff but her bracelets were purely decoration in that movie.

As for your question, theater of course.

[inisideguy]

I wasn't really referring to her use of bracelets in IM2 -- although I seem to recall she did do something to shock one of the guards. I just thought she had a really kick ass presence in that film.

For those who have seen it -- was it in the theatre or did you stream it? I cancelled by Disney+ last month (don't really care about Loki) -- but I know there is an additional premium to view BW. I'll probably stream it eventually

I streamed it.

[Spider-Chan]

As for Feige's interviews I didn't get the same vibe as you. First of all, that guy would make for a good politician as to how much he talks without saying anything. The interviews I came across are just the phrases one expects when you promote a movie. But what really stood out to me was that he was talking about Yelena as much as he did about the title character and that tells me all I need to know about where his biggest passion may have been here.

That, I do agree with. It's clear to me also that what currently enthusiasms him the most is moving forward the MCU and introducing new characters. BW had the unfortunate timing that, once he could get the greenlight to make movies with minority leads, they were going through a transition phase, retiring the phase 1 heroes and introducing new ones.

It's fair to say that he wasn't as passionate of BW as he was for other projects, but to say there wasn't any passion when the final product definitely shows it and he was just as involved as in any MCU movie feels wrong.

[Snoop Dogg]

movie was good

[Shimbo]

On MCU BW, anybody else think she should have had the Red Room variant of the Super Soldier Serum, like in the comics? Them bringing in Red Guardian this movie and showing him having it just felt like...why wouldn't you also use that on your highly trained assassins? Natasha got nerfed but I guess the Russian serum was a retcon in the comics anyway, and writers seem to have stopped bringing it up :/

[Spiderfan001]

On MCU BW, anybody else think she should have had the Red Room variant of the Super Soldier Serum, like in the comics? Them bringing in Red Guardian this movie and showing him having it just felt like...why wouldn't you also use that on your highly trained assassins? Natasha got nerfed but I guess the Russian serum was a retcon in the comics anyway, and writers seem to have stopped bringing it up :/

Ig it highlights there skill. Also there highly trained spys built for infiltration, having a serum may mean they could get their cover blown via blood samples.

[newparisian]

I recently rewatched Civil War (great movie!). When Bucky is escaping from the German compound, Nat fights him and she says something like "you can at least recognize me". What does that mean? They had the highway fight scene in TWS, and earlier she'd recounted a story where she'd been shot by him years before. But both times, he was evil.

In the comics, I liked their romance. I think it was Cornell that inserted Bucky into young Nat's past at one point.