Should Jason Todd Have Stayed Dead?

[Trt-R5]

I don't think Ric Grayson was Tom King's idea. Maybe he decided to have Dick take a bullet in the head, but the whole amnesia thing didn't benefit Tom King's plans in any way. I think it was either an editorial decision or pitch by whoever wrote Dick Grayson at the time. Plus Tom King entered the Batman world writing Dick during the Spyral era. I'm sure he cared somewhat about Dick.

Funnily enough, it was lobdell that sugested for ric to continue for more than a few issues (according to him in an interview). I wasn't trying to say it was Tom king's fault to make Dick into ric (even if his ideias to fakeout death or injuries have given us ric and Alfred permanently dead, at least for a while) the thing I was trying to say, is that no Robin can step away from the batman's shadow in real life. They are all a branch of his "franchise" if you will, and if it serves the character of Batman, they will be regressed or changed back as many times as they want. Not batman hating, I love batman. But we sometimes forget this is a business and batman is the Cash cow, so as long as it stays this ways, the bat kids will always be adapted to what's best for batman's story

[Zaresh]

Jason has always been a punk. I think he should stay a punk. It doesn't mean he is stupid, it just means he doesn't embrace traditions and etiquette. I don't see why the league would want him or why he would want the league. Damian already fills that spot.

No, not, really. He started being a punk about 3 months or 4 before he died, as far as I'm aware.

[Godlike13]

That's basically the curse of being a bat kid. Dick also supposedly stepped away from batman's shadow, and yet it was what happened in a batman book that gave him a 2 years trainwreck of a run, it was batman who gave him his suit, and in a way, nightwing back, the same identity that was supposed to have nothing to do with batman. And in titans rebirth he also followed Batman's orders, even when it meant going against his team best interest. I'm not saying this to try and pull down nightwing's character (he's my second favourite hero) but it's not only Jason that has suffered from writers not knowing what to do with the character. Damian is also, once again, in his al ghul phase just to come back as Robin in a few months or years. Tim doesn't even appear in most things nowadays and when he does he's eternally 16.
Back to Jason I agree that there wasn't really a aim for his actions (due to lobdell's way "of writing in the moment" and not planing ahead) but I don't agree that he hasn't develloped at all in the last 10 years. While you have Tom king butchering the character for Twitter laughs from time to time, at least he hasn't been written as psychotic maniac like in Batman of the cowl or morrison's batman and Robin. So there has been at least some change for the better
And he has some sort of established base for his character: disagrees with the way crime should be fought and his willing to do "bad things" for the greater good. Yes that has been scrapped for a while so he can appear in batfamily events. But hopefully a writer like chip zdarsky or some other take him back to that kind of not villain but ideologically antagonistic place with the family, the same way I hope tom Taylor gets Dick back to his rightful place as an A list character.
PS. And yes, I think he should kill (just not random thugs)

Dick is draped in Batman’s shadow, no one is saying he isn’t, the evidence is too apparent. He stepped away for a time but was eventually brought back. But at least he when he went off somewhere it mattered, and he actually went off. It lead somewhere, and when he was brought back he was brought back tangibly different from his experiences. Bringing him back to do Nightwing solo adventures in a different city. Which was something new for the character. Now though Nightwing has become stalled over these last years, and had been buried under bad creative, so no one is really claiming he not under Batman’s shadow now. Unlike with Jason. Yet really all Lobdell did is go in one big circle as Jason was used to keep him busy for a decade. Leaving him where he was, with who he was with, to go back to do similar stuff to what he was doing previously. But now with less of a stage, and a crowded environment.

[Comics N' Toons]

I object to Jason's rebirth just on principle. They went to all the trouble of destroying his character and killing him off in the first place, just to replace him in short order with yet another Robin that wasn't far different. It exposes the cavalier attitude editorial had toward the readership.

On top of that, the way that Jason was brought back to life is not dissimilar from the way dead Alfred was brought back to life during the "New Look" in a very convoluted and ridiculous story that made him the Outsider. And that kind of silly science fiction is what supposedly the much more serious-minded Batman had gotten away from. You can't condemn "camp" Batman on the one hand and then use all the same tropes for the dour Batman on the other hand. It's the height of hypocrisy.

This is probably the best anti-bringing Jay back to life argument/observation I have ever seen anywhere. And... after years of searching, it looks like I have several brethren in the "Jay was a good Robin but should've stayed dead" camp of Bat-fandom. Wow!

[Restingvoice]

I don't think Ric Grayson was Tom King's idea. Maybe he decided to have Dick take a bullet in the head, but the whole amnesia thing didn't benefit Tom King's plans in any way. I think it was either an editorial decision or pitch by whoever wrote Dick Grayson at the time. Plus Tom King entered the Batman world writing Dick during the Spyral era. I'm sure he cared somewhat about Dick.

Ric was editorial. King shot Dick, but quickly assured editorial that he can just have Zatanna fix him, or maybe have a story of Tim becoming Nightwing in the mean time, but editorial said they have an idea for Dick, and to leave it to them. King said, okay, if you got this, in the end I'm a Batman writer, not Nightwing. - This is from King's interviews

Then at a meeting, Didio and King told the others they're shooting Dick, to which Abnett (Titans) and Percy (Nightwing) yelled because they didn't know anything about it. - This is from King's interview and Abnett's Twitter

THEN, once Percy left, editorial themselves admit that Ric isn't gonna last long, but Lobdell convinced them to go through with it because he imagined it like a Barbara to Oracle... and then he left. That one I don't know why. - This is from Lobdell's interview

I haven't checked if Jurgens has said anything

[batnbreakfast]

When Under the Hood came out I was angry and disappointed. The story chipped away at Batman s mythology with making death less permanent and preventing death is what Bruce mission is about. Damian was another thing that bugged me but at least he has some better stories under his belt now thanks to Morrison. Jason is the opposite. He never had a good writer or a story that's more than mediocre since he is back.

[Alpha]

Didn't Bruce meet Jason while he was trying to steal the batmobile tires? I've heard that he ended up being written as a copy of Difk Grayson (haven't read it myself) but like you said, in his last months as robin he went back to being a punk. And then when he was ressurected he was still a punk, just a more serious and dangerous one. It's not an insult, it's a big part of his appeal. He's a scavanger who will survive no matter what, and once he died and came back he had even more reason to be that way. But it's also the reason why he wouldn't be a member of the League of Assassins.

[Jackalope89]

Didn't Bruce meet Jason while he was trying to steal the batmobile tires? I've heard that he ended up being written as a copy of Difk Grayson (haven't read it myself) but like you said, in his last months as robin he went back to being a punk. And then when he was ressurected he was still a punk, just a more serious and dangerous one. It's not an insult, it's a big part of his appeal. He's a scavanger who will survive no matter what, and once he died and came back he had even more reason to be that way. But it's also the reason why he wouldn't be a member of the League of Assassins.

Prior to Crisis on Infinite Earths, Jason was basically a copy of Dick Grayson, but with blonde hair (which he dyed black). Circus background, parents killed by mobster (Killer Croc), taken in by Bruce...

It was after COIE that Jason's origin changed to the kid trying to steal the Batmobile's wheels. And no, he wasn't "punk" then either. He was a kid trying to survive in harsh conditions. And he knew enough about Batman that Batman beats up criminals, and he was caught steeling the tires. So, of course he'll put up a front.

[TooFlyToFail]

Jason has always been a punk. I think he should stay a punk. It doesn't mean he is stupid, it just means he doesn't embrace traditions and etiquette. I don't see why the league would want him or why he would want the league. Damian already fills that spot.

He kind of is, yes, given where he came from, but he's obviously more than that. Based off everything he's done, he's the most skilled, resourceful and interesting of the Bat Family, after Bruce. Also, he's already got a connection to Talia, has defeated the League, has the All Blades, a Batman candidate with flexible ethics and, unlike the child that is Damian, can actually fill the role of heir and leader of adults.

Could easily have the League have been mostly wiped out, and have Talia bring in Jason to help her rebuild and get revenge. He would take this as an opportunity to try to reform both the League and Talia.

Would definitely be an organic, and built in, escalating of his role in the DC universe. He started off a punk, but has recently become a leader and reformer of lost souls. Now he can try to save the person that gave him a second chance of life.

[Alpha]

He kind of is, yes, given where he came from, but he's obviously more than that. Based off everything he's done, he's the most skilled, resourceful and interesting of the Bat Family, after Bruce. Also, he's already got a connection to Talia, has defeated the League, has the All Blades, a Batman candidate with flexible ethics and, unlike the child that is Damian, can actually fill the role of heir and leader of adults.

Could easily have the League have been mostly wiped out, and have Talia bring in Jason to help her rebuild and get revenge. He would take this as an opportunity to try to reform both the League and Talia.

Would definitely be an organic, and built in, escalating of his role in the DC universe. He started off a punk, but has recently become a leader and reformer of lost souls. Now he can try to save the person that gave him a second chance of life.

I don't know man, I think the leader of the League of Assassins would be someone who has read Sun Tzu and stuff like that. I don't imagine that Jason has that type of interests. Again, I definitely don't underestimate his intelligence, he's probably one of the best strategists in the family because of his experience.

[RedBird]

I don't know man, I think the leader of the League of Assassins would be someone who has read Sun Tzu and stuff like that. I don't imagine that Jason has that type of interests.

Well, to be fair.

[Zaresh]

I don't know man, I think the leader of the League of Assassins would be someone who has read Sun Tzu and stuff like that. I don't imagine that Jason has that type of interests. Again, I definitely don't underestimate his intelligence, he's probably one of the best strategists in the family because of his experience.

He does. Actually, it's a weird thing that has carried from continuity to continuity: he's a well read man. He's quite educated despite how shitty his life has been. What he lacks is experience in your-average-kid-and-teenager matters, like toys, games and relationships and stuff.

[TooFlyToFail]

I don't know man, I think the leader of the League of Assassins would be someone who has read Sun Tzu and stuff like that. I don't imagine that Jason has that type of interests. Again, I definitely don't underestimate his intelligence, he's probably one of the best strategists in the family because of his experience.

Except he is well read like that. He's got Bruce Wayne levels of training, especially since he was trained by the League lol.

Him going back to the League, if asked to help and being put in a position of authority, being forced to make decisions that have wide ranging affects....this is a natural progression for the character, given everything he's done sin e 2011.

[prepmaster]

There is more to being a leader of a group than just being a good strategist. Its about inspiring loyalty, understanding the mindset of others and helping them in fulfilling their roles. Dick Grayson is more of a natural leader than Jason since Dick has always been a thread that connects Batfam members.

[Alpha]

Well, to be fair.

hahahaha. GGWP