Should Jason Todd Have Stayed Dead?

[CPSparkles]

Yeah, my musings and ideas are more building off his relationship with Talia and the League since 2011. It feels like he should have a deeper relationship with her...but no one wants to explore it all, including Lobdell...who changed it so that he met her before Bruce. Weird.

he really shouldn't. Talia, Roy, Starfire, Biz.. it's remarkable to me that Lobdell was on the Jason character for what a decade and he didn't manage to cultivate even one decent/standout original supporting cast member. What was the dude doing all that time?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

he really shouldn't. Talia, Roy, Starfire, Biz.. it's remarkable to me that Lobdell was on the Jason character for what a decade and he didn't manage to cultivate even one decent/standout original supporting cast member. What was the dude doing all that time?

False

He developed Ducra, Essence, Suzie Su, Isabel. And he even revamped Ma Gunn and Willis.

[Jackalope89]

@Jackalopes what is the purpose of Jason todd without Bruce Wayne Batman? Does he start arching DickBats out of jealousy or insecurity which is the crux of Jason/Dick dynamic. Does he arch Joker? He might but since the Joker is far more valuable than Red hood/Jason Todd he can't kill him and the Joker's value is tied up in his relationship arching Bruce nothing to do with Jason

Not just Jason, but it gives the rest of the DC as a whole a chance to stand on its own without Bruce being shoved into everything. What's more, it allows the other Bat family characters to be able to do their own story arcs, at least for awhile, without having to interrupt their own story because the author/editorial for the Batman book says to do their storyline right then.

Joker can go into a coma or whatever while Batman is gone. Or die himself. Really, I can do without Joker and his clown fanclub for a good while.

Besides which, of the Justice League, especially the Trinity, Bruce is the only one yet to actually die (time traveling and being cloned doesn't count).

[9th.]

The answer to this question is no, DC made a great choice bringing him back. You can't tell Red Hood stories with any other Robin character, that makes him unique.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Not just Jason, but it gives the rest of the DC as a whole a chance to stand on its own without Bruce being shoved into everything. What's more, it allows the other Bat family characters to be able to do their own story arcs, at least for awhile, without having to interrupt their own story because the author/editorial for the Batman book says to do their storyline right then.

Joker can go into a coma or whatever while Batman is gone. Or die himself. Really, I can do without Joker and his clown fanclub for a good while.

Besides which, of the Justice League, especially the Trinity, Bruce is the only one yet to actually die (time traveling and being cloned doesn't count).

This is why I'm so excited for Gotham Knights, is finally giving the bat kids the chance to do anything but rehashing their "greatest hits" again and again, and step out from Bruce's shadow even if is just a little.

[prepmaster]

I think he was meaning Jay should have stayed dead... As Robin, he wasnt the most profitable character of DC. And... historically speaking, Batman and Superman have been by far the most profitable.

From a bussiness standpoint, Jason is more profitable as Red Hood than a dead Robin. Dick & Jason are the most popular Batfam members while the rest are distant behind. His solo titles have been around for a decade and would likely be relaunced in just a few months.

[CPSparkles]

False

He developed Ducra, Essence, Suzie Su, Isabel. And he even revamped Ma Gunn and Willis.

I guess those are original and decent/standout is subjective. Curious Roy, Biz, Talia and Joker are all anyone seems to talk about in relation to Jason.

Well Jason has a cast. Writers should explore those and flesh them out. Build them up to the level of those borrowed cast. To a level where they are the characters synonymous with Jason

[CPSparkles]

Not just Jason, but it gives the rest of the DC as a whole a chance to stand on its own without Bruce being shoved into everything. What's more, it allows the other Bat family characters to be able to do their own story arcs, at least for awhile, without having to interrupt their own story because the author/editorial for the Batman book says to do their storyline right then.

Joker can go into a coma or whatever while Batman is gone. Or die himself. Really, I can do without Joker and his clown fanclub for a good while.

Besides which, of the Justice League, especially the Trinity, Bruce is the only one yet to actually die (time traveling and being cloned doesn't count).

Bruce dying doesn't stop those characters stilling playing in his sandbox or DC banking on his popularity and myth to promote those characters.

The batman is too big to stay dead and from a business POV it makes no sense.

Aside from Batman and Batrelated characters [Joker, Harley, BwL] what other characters move comics consistently? Or even turn a profit in publishing?

It's easy to say DC should use other characters but they don't sell. You've seen the numbers. Jason has been in steady publication for like 10 years yet he still doesn't have the numbers to carry a book.

Superman, Dick Grayson, Flash can carry titles on their own but even Nightwing out sells the JL.

The truth is that few DC characters can sustain a book which is why dc needs Batman. When it comes to outside media sure Aquaman, WW and Shazam did well in the movies to when it comes to demand characters like Harley and batman are still more in demand.

The public who went to see death in the family went in large part due to batman.
It's okay to say let Bruce stay dead but is he really dead if DC is still pushing his lore and his side characters?

Superman and nightwing

[CPSparkles]

This is why I'm so excited for Gotham Knights, is finally giving the bat kids the chance to do anything but rehashing their "greatest hits" again and again, and step out from Bruce's shadow even if is just a little.

I hope we get Blockbuster, Essence and Anarky as the villains rather than Dc shoving Bruce's villains into Gotham knights.

Bat kids' huh. We can't even make it out the gate without making it about batman.
In what way is the Gotham knights game not about batman or about the Batkids stepping out of the bat shadow? That like saying Dick stepping in to replace bruce was him stepping out of Bats shadow.

[Jackalope89]

Bruce dying doesn't stop those characters stilling playing in his sandbox or DC banking on his popularity and myth to promote those characters.

The batman is too big to stay dead and from a business POV it makes no sense.

Aside from Batman and Batrelated characters [Joker, Harley, BwL] what other characters move comics consistently? Or even turn a profit in publishing?

It's easy to say DC should use other characters but they don't sell. You've seen the numbers. Jason has been in steady publication for like 10 years yet he still doesn't have the numbers to carry a book.

Superman, Dick Grayson, Flash can carry titles on their own but even Nightwing out sells the JL.

The truth is that few DC characters can sustain a book which is why dc needs Batman. When it comes to outside media sure Aquaman, WW and Shazam did well in the movies to when it comes to demand characters like Harley and batman are still more in demand.

The public who went to see death in the family went in large part due to batman.
It's okay to say let Bruce stay dead but is he really dead if DC is still pushing his lore and his side characters?

Superman and nightwing

I'm not saying ONLY Jason though; I'm talking about DC as a whole. Most team books, Batman is put in, made in charge (annoying people who don't want to read about him), and has all the answers. Somehow. For Dick; I could go with him staying as Nightwing, or foraying back into the Bat suit for a while. And I'm not saying Bruce stays dead for 20 years or whatever, but maybe for 6 months to a year or so. Give him a "new experience", and realize what a jerk he's been. Maybe.

[failo.legendkiller]

@Falio as a Tim Drake fan who was recently rejoicing at the fact that Tim is back to being Bruce's Robin [you also complained a lot when Tim was distanced from the batfamily. complaining that the bond between Bruce and tim was suffering] what happens to Tim if Bruce is gone forever? Who does he sidekick to? What is the point of Tim if there is no Bruce?

My point in this thread is death should matter. When a character dies it should be epic, and to be epic has to be dead for real.
Flash and Supergirl deaths in COIE were emotional moments, the same happened with Jason’s one, cause at that time death meant staying dead!

In my opinion death should not be reverted, except for some rare cases.
Dc is lately abusing of this concept. Nowadays a resurrection is not denied to anyone.

If I’d be in charge Bruce would stay dead with Dick as Batman and Damian as Robin.
Tim would be Red Robin, exactly where we left him before Flashpoint.

Anyway I understand that this scenario is utopic. Characters as Bruce or Clark cannot stay dead.

[Arsenal]

Death doesn’t need to be permanent, I’m not sure if ever really can be in the never ending story DC & Marvel have crafted for themselves.

Death doesn’t even need to be permanent to matter. It just needs to be allowed to have an impact. The problem isn’t the resurrections themselves, it’s the fact that characters are written to act as if they never died in the first place when they came back. Jason’s death, resurrection and transformation into the Red Hood serves a better example that death still matters far more than his original death ever did.

[Godlike13]

I wouldn’t go that far, Death in the Family still remains a rather pivotal moment. They managed to continue upon it with his return as Red Hood, but 10 years later now they have been losing that more and more. Before it was important that he still represented that tragedy, in a sense coming back as Red Hood was suppose to be a twist of the knife, but now he’s just there. They really should take a deep look into what they really want Red Hood to be going forward and how they can do that while keeping the core concept intact. Quite frankly they should have done it a decade ago in all honesty.

[Sergard]

I wouldn’t go that far, Death in the Family still remains a rather pivotal moment. They managed to continue upon it with his return as Red Hood, but 10 years later now they have been losing that more and more. Before it was important that he still represented that tragedy, in a sense coming back as Red Hood was suppose to be a twist of the knife, but now he’s just there. They really should take a deep look into what they really want Red Hood to be going forward and how they can do that while keeping the core concept intact. Quite frankly they should have done it a decade ago in all honesty.

Well, you can thank garbage like Battle for the Cowl and Morrison's trash Batman & Robin run for that. Instead of pushing Jason as his own independent character right after his reintroduction, he was butchered and sabotaged by Dick Grayson stan writers because the DC universe and their writers (and the fan bases) are f*cking toxic. Every writer just wants to push their own little darling character and doesn't mind to ruin other characters in the process - especially the bats are a bunch of leeches.

Jason needs to get away from the bat cult - something that should have happened right after UtRH. Jason has more than enough uniqueness and there are so many untouched stories that can only be told with a hero type like Jason that it's ludicrous how DC ignores all of that. Instead we have Batman, Dick "Better than Batman" Grayson, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon, Damian "The best Batman" Wayne and Tim "The Detective Heir" Drake. DC needs to stop telling the same story over and over again. The DC universe is so gigantic. Why is everybody sitting on each others laps and behaving like they do something while nothing ever changes? DC could cut out ALL legacy characters and the universe wouldn't be that different.

[CPSparkles]

Well, you can thank garbage like Battle for the Cowl and Morrison's trash Batman & Robin run for that. Instead of pushing Jason as his own independent character right after his reintroduction, he was butchered and sabotaged by Dick Grayson stan writers because the DC universe and their writers (and the fan bases) are f*cking toxic. Every writer just wants to push their own little darling character and doesn't mind to ruin other characters in the process - especially the bats are a bunch of leeches.

Jason needs to get away from the bat cult - something that should have happened right after UtRH. Jason has more than enough uniqueness and there are so many untouched stories that can only be told with a hero type like Jason that it's ludicrous how DC ignores all of that. Instead we have Batman, Dick "Better than Batman" Grayson, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon, Damian "The best Batman" Wayne and Tim "The Detective Heir" Drake. DC needs to stop telling the same story over and over again. The DC universe is so gigantic. Why is everybody sitting on each others laps and behaving like they do something while nothing ever changes? DC could cut out ALL legacy characters and the universe wouldn't be that different.

i get that you deeply dislike Dick Grayson but lets stay focused here. BFTC and B&R were years ago mate they have nothing to do with Jason not being pushed as an independent character.

Jason enjoyed the luxury of having a single steady writer who also happened to be a huge fan write him for years. Lobdell has penned jason for years. Why didn't he push Jason as his own man? Why didn't he do more with DITf? Make the story more worthwhile.

Why didn't Lobdell tell more of those stories that can only be told with a hero like jason instead of Jason remember when i died Todd, Jason Daddybruce issues Todd?

Why didn't lobdell dedicate time to crafting Jason's journey? Why are we still stuck with Jason do I kill or don't i Todd?

Jason more than any other batfamily member had the chance to break away from that kind of trap due to having one steady writer. Lobdell.

Don't blame other writers or blame dC's favouritism for that it's not on them. I mean BFTC and Morrison?! Are you serious? Those were side books and cross overs not Jason's main title. The dude had a steady writer and a solo to craft his jouerney and identity.

I get you have issue with the Batfamily and the Bat office but don't act like Lobdell wasn't majorly at fault