Should Jason Todd Have Stayed Dead?

[Rise]

Well, you can thank garbage like Battle for the Cowl and Morrison's trash Batman & Robin run for that. Instead of pushing Jason as his own independent character right after his reintroduction, he was butchered and sabotaged by Dick Grayson stan writers because the DC universe and their writers (and the fan bases) are f*cking toxic. Every writer just wants to push their own little darling character and doesn't mind to ruin other characters in the process - especially the bats are a bunch of leeches.

Jason needs to get away from the bat cult - something that should have happened right after UtRH. Jason has more than enough uniqueness and there are so many untouched stories that can only be told with a hero type like Jason that it's ludicrous how DC ignores all of that. Instead we have Batman, Dick "Better than Batman" Grayson, Barbara "Batgirl" Gordon, Damian "The best Batman" Wayne and Tim "The Detective Heir" Drake. DC needs to stop telling the same story over and over again. The DC universe is so gigantic. Why is everybody sitting on each others laps and behaving like they do something while nothing ever changes? DC could cut out ALL legacy characters and the universe wouldn't be that different.

These are pretty strong words to use here. Of course every writer want to push their favourites (it's natural and there's nothing wrong with this as long as it's not done at the expense of another) and I honestly don't think what happened to Jason in pre-flashpoint was the result of "toxicity" because I actually believe that it's a case of writers not excatly sure what people liked about him and which way they should go with him.

And I'm also not sure why some of you here acting like Jason is in such a horrible place and what did I miss excatly? He had a book consistently for 10 years which more than a lot of DC characters can claim (let alone the majority of bat characters) and he is slowly having a strong media presence that one can argue that he is becoming the most popular Robin nowdays.

As for the importance of DITF and its effect, some of the people who are upest about his return don't care about his death because he means nothing to them and it's just a statue que they don't like to see it being changed. To people who care about his character, his death become important to them and its effect matter more now that it ever did before.

[Zaresh]

Death doesn’t need to be permanent, I’m not sure if ever really can be in the never ending story DC & Marvel have crafted for themselves.

Death doesn’t even need to be permanent to matter. It just needs to be allowed to have an impact. The problem isn’t the resurrections themselves, it’s the fact that characters are written to act as if they never died in the first place when they came back. Jason’s death, resurrection and transformation into the Red Hood serves a better example that death still matters far more than his original death ever did.

I absolutely second this post. I wouldn't have word it any better.

[Sergard]

i get that you deeply dislike Dick Grayson but lets stay focused here. BFTC and B&R were years ago mate they have nothing to do with Jason not being pushed as an independent character.

Jason enjoyed the luxury of having a single steady writer who also happened to be a huge fan write him for years. Lobdell has penned jason for years. Why didn't he push Jason as his own man? Why didn't he do more with DITf? Make the story more worthwhile.

Why didn't Lobdell tell more of those stories that can only be told with a hero like jason instead of Jason remember when i died Todd, Jason Daddybruce issues Todd?

Why didn't lobdell dedicate time to crafting Jason's journey? Why are we still stuck with Jason do I kill or don't i Todd?

Jason more than any other batfamily member had the chance to break away from that kind of trap due to having one steady writer. Lobdell.

Don't blame other writers or blame dC's favouritism for that it's not on them. I mean BFTC and Morrison?! Are you serious? Those were side books and cross overs not Jason's main title. The dude had a steady writer and a solo to craft his jouerney and identity.

I get you have issue with the Batfamily and the Bat office but don't act like Lobdell wasn't majorly at fault

The topic was "10 years ago", so "years ago". Battle for the Cowl and Batman & Robin happened around that time.

I'm not here to defend Lobdell. There are things I can blame him for but there are also things I liked about his stories - and there are things I blame editorial for. I know a lot of people in this forum like to blame everything on certain people like Lobdell or Didio but I'm not one of them (because it's dumb.). I even highly doubt that Lobdell would have written Red Hood in New52 if Red Hood had had a better - and independent! - portrayal during post-crisis after BUtRH. But post-crisis was a horrible time for Jason because he did not have his own main title. Instead his character was misused by different writers as a prop and his personality flip-flopped around.

So yes, I have every right to be mad about Battle for the Cowl and Batman & Robin. And what's the problem with me deeply disliking Dick Grayson? I also deeply dislike Damian Wayne and Joker. Others deeply dislike Tim Drake or Harley Quinn. (There are also some strange people who dislike Cass Cain or Stephanie Brown.) Do you really think I would be less mad about Jason's treatment in Battle for the Cowl or Batman & Robin if Tim Drake, Barbara Gordon, Cass Cain or Bugs Bunny had been the new Batman?

And please stop pretending that favoritism isn't a thing. I've seen you often enough complain about DC pushing Tim Drake's potential return as Robin.

At the end of the day, Jason Todd is a great character, has the same right to be alive like any other character and compared to others who have already found there place in the DC universe and have partly entered a stage of repetition, Jason has still a lot of hidden potential for future stories that only can be told with his character. And as you yourself say, Jason has the greatest potential to break away from the bat franchise and become his own independent franchise.

[CPSparkles]

The topic was "10 years ago", so "years ago". Battle for the Cowl and Batman & Robin happened around that time.

I'm not here to defend Lobdell. There are things I can blame him for but there are also things I liked about his stories - and there are things I blame editorial for. I know a lot of people in this forum like to blame everything on certain people like Lobdell or Didio but I'm not one of them (because it's dumb.). I even highly doubt that Lobdell would have written Red Hood in New52 if Red Hood had had a better - and independent! - portrayal during post-crisis after BUtRH. But post-crisis was a horrible time for Jason because he did not have his own main title. Instead his character was misused by different writers as a prop and his personality flip-flopped around.

So yes, I have every right to be mad about Battle for the Cowl and Batman & Robin. And what's the problem with me deeply disliking Dick Grayson? I also deeply dislike Damian Wayne and Joker. Others deeply dislike Tim Drake or Harley Quinn. (There are also some strange people who dislike Cass Cain or Stephanie Brown.) Do you really think I would be less mad about Jason's treatment in Battle for the Cowl or Batman & Robin if Tim Drake, Barbara Gordon, Cass Cain or Bugs Bunny had been the new Batman?

And please stop pretending that favoritism isn't a thing. I've seen you often enough complain about DC pushing Tim Drake's potential return as Robin.

At the end of the day, Jason Todd is a great character, has the same right to be alive like any other character and compared to others who have already found there place in the DC universe and have partly entered a stage of repetition, Jason has still a lot of hidden potential for future stories that only can be told with his character. And as you yourself say, Jason has the greatest potential to break away from the bat franchise and become his own independent franchise.

You should check a bunch of your issues at the door friend, they seem to be affecting your POV a bit too much.

no one said favouritism isn't a thing but for you to cite that and toxic fandom as the things to blame for no doing more decades ago is bunk.

Jason had a steady writer for decades after BFtc and b&R. That steady writer could have done more and had decades to do more but didn't.

ALL character have suffered under Editorial that isn't exclusive to Jason If you are going to point fingers then be sure to point at everyone don't just pick and choose according to who you hate.


All characters have potential that's untapped [look at Signal and batwing character with a niche that Dc's sleeping on] which is why it's frustrating when I see someone pointing fingers at everyone but the writer who has had jason for what 10 years?

[Sergard]

You should check a bunch of your issues at the door friend, they seem to be affecting your POV a bit too much.

no one said favouritism isn't a thing but for you to cite that and toxic fandom as the things to blame for no doing more decades ago is bunk.

Jason had a steady writer for decades after BFtc and b&R. That steady writer could have done more and had decades to do more but didn't.

ALL character have suffered under Editorial that isn't exclusive to Jason If you are going to point fingers then be sure to point at everyone don't just pick and choose according to who you hate.


All characters have potential that's untapped [look at Signal and batwing character with a niche that Dc's sleeping on] which is why it's frustrating when I see someone pointing fingers at everyone but the writer who has had jason for what 10 years?

Yeah, this discussion is done. You are getting personal and hurtful.
And I'm neither your "mate" nor "friend".

[Aahz]

Don't blame other writers or blame dC's favouritism for that it's not on them. I mean BFTC and Morrison?! Are you serious? Those were side books and cross overs not Jason's main title.

He didn't had a main title, and even if what happens in these big events has often a big influence on how the character is seen since those books have way more readers. And those were pretty much the worst portraits of the character sofar (and that says a lot with how poorly the character is usually treated in Batfamily cross overs).

[Wingin' It]

I think the mantle of the Red Hood is so tied to revenge and being noticed by Batman after his death that if he wants to be more than a 1-trick pony, he's going to need to change his identity and MO. He's fulfilled his purpose of coming back to be a thorn in Bruce's side, and that was resolved with Jason knowing that Bruce will never kill the Joker for him or for anyone. Right now, he's just another bat-vigilante and doesn't add a ton that another character couldn't bring already.

[Aahz]

Right now, he's just another bat-vigilante and doesn't add a ton that another character couldn't bring already.

That's imo mostly a problem with the Batman writers, who are able to use other darker characters, who don't follow Batman's rules (Damian, Catwoman, Harley, Clownhunter, Ghost Hunter, Midnighter ...) but for some reason use Jason only as comic relief character.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think he should have died period. It was a bad story, the "iconic moment" isn't really worth having because having a dead kid on his hands does Bruce no favors, and polling the audience to decide the death of a teen is really tasteless. No wonder the mainstream thinks adult comic book fans are immature and gross.

These are pretty strong words to use here. Of course every writer want to push their favourites (it's natural and there's nothing wrong with this as long as it's not done at the expense of another) and I honestly don't think what happened to Jason in pre-flashpoint was the result of "toxicity" because I actually believe that it's a case of writers not excatly sure what people liked about him and which way they should go with him.

And I'm also not sure why some of you here acting like Jason is in such a horrible place and what did I miss excatly? He had a book consistently for 10 years which more than a lot of DC characters can claim (let alone the majority of bat characters) and he is slowly having a strong media presence that one can argue that he is becoming the most popular Robin nowdays.

I think this is right on the money. I don't care enough about Jason to really dig up all those issues and read them, but from what I know at the time there didn't seem to be a consistent plan in place for what to do with him. He turned into a tentacle monster or some ****, didn't he? It's like they brought him back for one really good and impactful storyline and then went "ok...now what?" for a bit. I'm not inclined to dislike how Morrison wrote him anyway, but it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility with how he was written shortly before then (duffel bag full of heads?) and is probably better than some of the other crap from around that time.

It just doesn't mesh with what we have now post-Lobdell, which a lot of Jason fans seem to like/love. But I agree I don't think he's in a terrible spot. Dick is/was in a far worse one with the bullet to the head and amnesia plot and all, but even that isn't insurmountable. I don't know how many Dick fans are passing the blame onto "toxic Jason stans" and it wouldn't make sense for them to do so.

[Light of Justice]

Should Jason Todd Have Stayed Dead? Was his resurrection just a stunt? Did his resurrection de-legitimize the Death in the Family storyline at all?

He should. Jason is one of few stories that imo "resurrection done right". In fact I think his resurrection strengthen the impact of DiTF. Without UtRH, DiTF just only a story about a Robin who dead and then high possibility will be lost in time. For me, UtRH gave new depth on DiTF tragedy and gave me clue how severe DiTF event for Batman mythos.
And that's why Jason's memorial is still there on Batcave even though it's been a long time since Jason's resurrection. Because that memorial is still true. Robin Jason died on DiTF event, and stays so. Red Hood Jason is other different character entirely, and that was direct result of DiTF tragedy.

Is Jason better as Red Hood or is the Todd Red Hood character too similar to other characters?

Now Red Hood is an iconic character so I often see "other character is too similar to Red Hood" than vice versa. So the solution is imho, stop creating character similar to Red Hood (Clownhunter, Ghostmaker) and stop forcing other character toward Red Hood plot (Damian, Cass Didio era). Because I swear, if I read a dialogue about "Batman will not kill so I will" one more time, I will throw up.

[Aahz]

I think the mantle of the Red Hood is so tied to revenge and being noticed by Batman after his death that if he wants to be more than a 1-trick pony, he's going to need to change his identity and MO.

Changing the mantle is not that easy as we have seen with Tim Drake.

The Red Hood mantle hase become pretty popular and iconic so coming up with an equivalent replacement will be really though, I mean they tried it with Red Robin and it didn't really cought on.