The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2021

[Ravin' Ray]

they still refer to it as "State University"? lol. what state, exactly? I don't think it's betraying the legacy of Stan & Jack to be a little more specific.

It's not Empire State University is it? Which is what Marvel Comics calls New York's university.

Yes it is.

The F4 will appear in Immortal Hulk, not sure who that is standing next to Reed(who looks pretty buff, gotta say i like Bennetts version of him)Still does anyone have a clue who that might be? I think Sue is behind her next to Thing and Torch.

If Monica Rappaccini wasn't involved elsewhere she'd be my wild guess?

So Lyja has obviously disguised herself as Sky...

Skyja?

I hope Kristoff is invited to the wedding. Things haven't been very close with Daddy Dearest lately.

What happened to him after he hired She-Hulk as his lawyer to emancipate himself from Doom?

[Iron Maiden]

Yes it is.<br>
<br>
If Monica Rappaccini wasn't involved elsewhere she'd be my wild guess?<br>
<br>
Skyja?<br>
<br>
What happened to him after he hired She-Hulk as his lawyer to emancipate himself from Doom?

Oh, that was quite a while ago. Kristoff was in Doom's good graces in Hickman's Fantastic Four and then New Avengers. They fought off some of the mapmakers together when there was an incursion right over Castle Doom. He was part of the assembled parties at a couple of Doom's dinner occasions...once with Reed and Dr. Strange and another with Namor. Then along came Secret Wars and he pretty much vanished .

He was in Cantwell's Doom series and at least he got aged up. But when Doom was submitting some of his closest allies and staff to a loyalty test, Doom told Kristoff never to call him father again. I did listen to a podcast Cantwell gave towards the end of the series and the subject of Kristoff came up. I can't recall exactly what he said but he definitely was pretty dismissive of the character. At least at the end of the series Doom installed Kristoff as the governor of Symkaria after it was conquered by Latveria as retribution for plotting against Doom and making it appear that Latveria was behind the Antlion disaster.

[Ravin' Ray]

I'm embarrassed at how I forgot Kristoff's exploits! I gotta re-read those issues.

[Digifiend]

So Lyja has obviously disguised herself as Sky... This is the same predatory crap I talk about and it being ignored by Marvel is disgusting.

Could the ponytail be a clue to that? Lyja has one in her natural form, while Sky usually wears it down - it's usually drawn in a way that doesn't even look long enough to tie up like that.

[Iron Maiden]

I'm embarrassed at how I forgot Kristoff's exploits! I gotta re-read those issues.

that's Ok. I blame it on the pandemic. It has me messed up remembering just what day it is sometimes!

BTW, saw a cool Easter egg in the Fantastic Four #32 preview




I isolated the panel with the books on Victor's table and one is H.G. Welles "The Time Machine" and the other is a book about Blackbeard the Pirate. Of course, in Doom's first appearance in FF #5 he has built his time platform and he sends the FF back in time to get Blackbeard's pirate treasure chest.

[Crimz]

On the Sky thing. Have they ever kissed? For so-called "soulmates" they have zero passion and chemistry.
They tell us they are perfect for each other instead of showing us.

[Oberon]

Relationships, foibles and all, have been a part, a big part, of the FF since the very beginning.

Who can't read the first issue and feel that there was some tension or possible triangle between Ben, Sue and Reed.

And when it wasn't that, than it quickly became, Namor... in a big way.
I will always contend that the Sue/Namor "thing" has more to do with Sue being the symbol of Namor's human side, just as Betty Dean or even Diane Arliss is or was. They take the place of 'us' in a way, the world that Namor is trying to connect to, as he is the 'other' to our world. So I like it and I see something different than just horniness.

But when it wasn't Sue/Namor than in quick order it was Ben and Alicia and an incredible great comic take on Beauty and the Beast.

And then it was Johnny and Crystal, an incredible take on Romeo and Juliet.

You see, the idea of relationships between very opposites and circumstances is baked in.

The FF is 'us' exploring, romantically or otherwise, the world of 'other' around us.

So various attempts to go back there are natural.

Ben and Sharon. Johnny and Frankie/"Alicia"-Lyja/Sky.
Even the side characters: Crystal and Quicksilver (partially handled in the FF)
Surfer and Frankie/Nova. Surfer and Alicia (not handled in FF, rather unique in it's own way).
any others? Again, the sense of 'us' experiencing the world, or the other. Or the other with us.

Sure there is a lot more to the FF than soap opera romances, but some serialized fiction has to do things with emotion interactions to keep them fresh; break ups, shake ups.

that is why the idea of Sue leaving Reed is fascinating to me. Not because I want that marriage destroyed, but I'm interested in that meeting with the 'other'. The What ifs that have involved, mostly, Sue as an evil version of herself, or more powerful, or more with Namor, or less with Reed, etc. etc.

serve a part. But in the end, it is really hard to do much without changing to much. So it is has to be tempered or nuanced.

Is the current Sky story meant to bring Johnny back to Lyja? To Crystal even?

For years now we've seen the signs that the FF were all moving to more realistic signs of their age/experience etc.

So Val and Franklin are now teens/near. Ben and Alicia are finally married and parents to adopted children.

It is really time that we define Johnny some way, some how. Or is this his definition?

Does that mean that other's feelings of him and how to deal with this definition are appropriate?

Is Sue justified in her snooping?
Some folks, not many, have said that Defalco's run brought out growth for Sue, possibly others, as the team was confronted with the most existential event of all; Reed thought dead.

So those kind of changes have resulted in big growth (though/but/etc, not always respected by writers down the road).

Is it time for such a big shake up?

[CaptCleghorn]

Oh, that was quite a while ago. Kristoff was in Doom's good graces in Hickman's Fantastic Four and then New Avengers. They fought off some of the mapmakers together when there was an incursion right over Castle Doom. He was part of the assembled parties at a couple of Doom's dinner occasions...once with Reed and Dr. Strange and another with Namor. Then along came Secret Wars and he pretty much vanished .

He was in Cantwell's Doom series and at least he got aged up. But when Doom was submitting some of his closest allies and staff to a loyalty test, Doom told Kristoff never to call him father again. I did listen to a podcast Cantwell gave towards the end of the series and the subject of Kristoff came up. I can't recall exactly what he said but he definitely was pretty dismissive of the character. At least at the end of the series Doom installed Kristoff as the governor of Symkaria after it was conquered by Latveria as retribution for plotting against Doom and making it appear that Latveria was behind the Antlion disaster.

A running theme in Kristoff's story has been his quest to become, if not independent from, then at least different than Doom. Now those words are stronger than the intention I want to convey, but Kristoff basically wants to be his own man while still loving and respecting the man who was responsible for him. He doesn't want to be Doom, Jr. or a mere yes-man. Is this a role Doom's grown enough to accept? I guess we'll see at the wedding.

[Iron Maiden]

A running theme in Kristoff's story has been his quest to become, if not independent from, then at least different than Doom. Now those words are stronger than the intention I want to convey, but Kristoff basically wants to be his own man while still loving and respecting the man who was responsible for him. He doesn't want to be Doom, Jr. or a mere yes-man. Is this a role Doom's grown enough to accept? I guess we'll see at the wedding.

Some years back, Charles Soule wanted to some different things with Kristoff. Ravin' Ray mentioned his appearance in Soule's first arc of his She Hulk series. He also included him briefly in the Death of Wolverine mini series back in 2014. The Directors cut had some bonus material, which included this:




Unfortunately, nothing came to pass. It always seemd to me that Franklin and Kristoff were nearly the same age, or at least it seemed that way in Byrne's Fantastic Four run. Then over the years the age gap became larger. Kristoff always spoke in a way that was not as childish as Franklin remained for far too many years IMO. IMO you can attribute part of that to the tinkering to his brain that occurs when the Doombots applied the Remembrancer device to give him Doom's knowledge and personality. It was later purged to some extent by Doom in Simonson's FF #350.

[CaptCleghorn]

Some years back, Charles Soule wanted to some different things with Kristoff. Ravin' Ray mentioned his appearance in Soule's first arc of his She Hulk series. He also included him briefly in the Death of Wolverine mini series back in 2014. The Directors cut had some bonus material, which included this:

Unfortunately, nothing came to pass. It always seemd to me that Franklin and Kristoff were nearly the same age, or at least it seemed that way in Byrne's Fantastic Four run. Then over the years the age gap became larger. Kristoff always spoke in a way that was not as childish as Franklin remained for far too many years IMO. IMO you can attribute part of that to the tinkering to his brain that occurs when the Doombots applied the Remembrancer device to give him Doom's knowledge and personality. It was later purged to some extent by Doom in Simonson's FF #350.

Kristoff's age has been an issue for quite a while. I'm head canonning Secret Wars and Franklin's recreation of the multiverse as having some tweaks in it and Kristoff's age being one of them. I suspect Doom's emotions may have had an effect on the revamp since his face was healed as a result of the recreation. I know it was Reed who focused on Doom's face, but Kristoff being boosted a few years so Vic wouldn't have to deal with a teenager seems like a gift Doom would appreciate.

[danielsan52]

I wouldn't mind seeing young Kristoff back along with his banter with Scott Lang.

Poor Alexander Flynn though.... Doom's mutant son.

[Hypestyle]

the usa still has diplomatic relations with latveria? at what cost?

[markhyperion]

No, I don't think so. Doom knows Zora very well .... She knows things about him (see the Doctor Doom series) and he knows her parents were. He could trip up an imposter on that fact. and I think he has a Skrull detector

To be clear, I meant it being Lyja and she isn't hiding, not Lyja pretending to be Victorious. I feel like they're still covering the face for no reason. For this wedding to matter, it has to be something the FF would find shocking.

Who cares if Doom marries Victorious. Honestly.

Which means to me its someone we know. Lyja is an easy answer. Alternate Sue is longshot

[danielsan52]

To be clear, I meant it being Lyja and she isn't hiding, not Lyja pretending to be Victorious. I feel like they're still covering the face for no reason. For this wedding to matter, it has to be something the FF would find shocking.

Who cares if Doom marries Victorious. Honestly.

Which means to me its someone we know. Lyja is an easy answer. Alternate Sue is longshot

Hopefully not Sharon. I'll be pissed, lol

Hopefully not Crystal either....

[cmore]

I can't stand either Skye or Lyja. Lyja is selfish and manipulative, and Skye is just boring. I wouldn't mind seeing the last of them both.

While it's unlikely to ever happen, I wish Johnny could get back with Dorrie Evans. She's the only girlfriend of his that I've ever liked. I did like Darla Jeering, but unfortunaly, she had to dump him for Antman.