The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2021

[Spiderfan001]

Man, that Iceman story was good. Considering the other F4/XMen interactions before it were crap.



Did you even read the story? It was written more like animalistic attraction rather than manipulation like what Starfox and Daken do. And they manage to control it when the story progressed.



Thank. You.

His first gf left cuz of the superhero stuff.
Medusa already a fiancé.
Crystal had to leave or she'd die
Nova left to save Earth
Alicia wasn't Alicia
He died when he was with Lyja
Namorita died
Ms. Thing fell in love with Scott Lang

The "Sue invades Johnny's privacy" is new too.



I feel writers don't understand how the humourous characters like Johnny, Spider-Man, Iceman, Hawkeye, etc. work and think it's shits and giggles 24/7.

Ehh... felt forced for me.

I think if he had more nuance then a relationship between the 2 could work.I wish we explored that but Slott isn't anywhere near that level.

It's a problem with many writers but Slott more than others.
everyone should write Spider-man like Zdarsky, perfect blend of mature because of age and experience and funny wit that's actually funny.

[CaptCleghorn]

I feel writers don't understand how the humourous characters like Johnny, Spider-Man, Iceman, Hawkeye, etc. work and think it's shits and giggles 24/7.

This. Going to the JLI which was humorous to the max and yet had poignant and serious stories even though the characters would joke almost excessively, they knew their $#!+. It's a lot tougher to handle a character with humor than it is a stoic, uber-serious character like Batman or the Punisher.

[Spiderfan001]

This. Going to the JLI which was humorous to the max and yet had poignant and serious stories even though the characters would joke almost excessively, they knew their $#!+. It's a lot tougher to handle a character with humor than it is a stoic, uber-serious character like Batman or the Punisher.

God yes.
Writing funny characters is so much more difficult than the serious ones.

Specially Spidey and Hawkeye who while jokey are mature and experienced af.
Most writers turn them into the clown and go way too far.

Subtelty is key, use less jokes and smaller ones and make sure they are funny and also make sure to feature their serious side.
Like Zdarsky does with Spidey

[Doom'nGloom]

This. Going to the JLI which was humorous to the max and yet had poignant and serious stories even though the characters would joke almost excessively, they knew their $#!+. It's a lot tougher to handle a character with humor than it is a stoic, uber-serious character like Batman or the Punisher.

That title made me a Guy Gardner fan and I usually hate smug douchebag types.

[Iron Maiden]

I think just about the entire Fantastic Four needs some kind of update/upgrade to their powers/abilities. And I also think the title has become too "domestic" and it limits the possibilities of the stories because you can't go off into the Microverse or the Negative Zone with a gaggle of kids in the mix. I suppose there's no going back on that though.

Anyway, methinks these "forever" changes only last until there is a change in the writer's chair. And I hope that is soon!

[marhawkman]

Slott's Johnny is such a step down from Hickman's Johnny. Under Hickman Johnny can still act immaturely but he knew when to get serious like when he locked himself in Negative Zone against Annihilus' forces. It was the perfect blend of childish demeanor and a mature soul. But now Johnny is basically a wreck who can't even stay loyal to his partner.

Hmmm.... I mostly agree... but only mostly. Hickman definitely did a great job writing Johnny. Slott's not the only one to have him do.... non-good-natured things on occasion though. Like his relationship with Lyja.... In some tellings Johnny had to not be around and simply couldn't find her later. Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa's Secret Invasion tie-in tells it from Lyja's PoV and she's angry at him for abandoning her. She literally says "out of sight, out of mind" when accusing him of forgetting about her. Hard to reconcile those two things.... especially since MC2 has Lyja as a full-time member of the F4 and the mother of Johnny's son.

I think just about the entire Fantastic Four needs some kind of update/upgrade to their powers/abilities. And I also think the title has become too "domestic" and it limits the possibilities of the stories because you can't go off into the Microverse or the Negative Zone with a gaggle of kids in the mix. I suppose there's no going back on that though.

Anyway, methinks these "forever" changes only last until there is a change in the writer's chair. And I hope that is soon!

Oh hey, I mentioned Torus Storm... Honestly, I think they could split F4 into the main book and a young F4 book. I LOVE stories with Valeria, and thought Torus was great too. But... the more you spend time with them the less you spend time with the main F4.

[JackDaw]

I think just about the entire Fantastic Four needs some kind of update/upgrade to their powers/abilities. And I also think the title has become too "domestic" and it limits the possibilities of the stories because you can't go off into the Microverse or the Negative Zone with a gaggle of kids in the mix. I suppose there's no going back on that though.

Anyway, methinks these "forever" changes only last until there is a change in the writer's chair. And I hope that is soon!

Reed can do anything by going into the lab for 15 minutes (or is it 5?). Franklin can do anything…except for the times he can’t. Val might be more intelligent than Reed. Oh…Sue is maybe one of most versatile and powerful characters in Marvel.

Not sure any of those need power upgrades!

On other hand Ben’s main contribution often seems to be yelling “It’s clobbering time!”, fighting pluckily but losing quickly. And Johnny seems to be a complete waster.

So certainly think there’s a case to give more balance to team contributions.

But overpowering need…I think…is to actually allow some permanent character progression.

[Aeon]

Val might be more intelligent than Reed.

To be honest, every newly female toddler, girl, or young women appearing in the comics is said to be already smarter than Reed, Tony, or Pym. Moon Girl, Val, that Braddock child, Riri, Brandi Starbrand, and every teenager working for Peter Parker or any other technology based company.

[Crimz]

I think just about the entire Fantastic Four needs some kind of update/upgrade to their powers/abilities. And I also think the title has become too "domestic" and it limits the possibilities of the stories because you can't go off into the Microverse or the Negative Zone with a gaggle of kids in the mix. I suppose there's no going back on that though.

Anyway, methinks these "forever" changes only last until there is a change in the writer's chair. And I hope that is soon!

There needs to be change. The FF books for too long have been coasting on what Lee/Kirby did and barely developing the team or creating new adventures/threats. They've stagnated in many ways. Like when was the last time any of them used their powers in a creative and new way? It's a small thing, but important in these kind of books. The current run is too focused on the domestic aspect of the team and not in an interesting way. In doing so it has neglected the other important characteristics of what makes the FF - cosmic adventure and super heroics.

Other books are leaving them in the dust. The X-Men shouldn't be having more cosmic adventures and stories than the Fantastic Four. Venom's previous book had more of an impact and influence on the Marvel universe than the FF have had in years. Hickman was the last to give them stories that effected more than just what was in the FF book.
Their powers seem to be at the bottom of the list of things writers care to develop. The only exception is Sue at times because that is the only development she ever gets.

There was a time Ben was considered one of the big guns in the MU alongside Hulk, and while Hulk maintained his status Ben has fallen.

You used to often see Reed contort his body in unique and interesting ways, but now he just pulls an invention out of his ass and stretches.

Johnny's nova used to be his last resort that was compared to the sun, but now it's an attack most shrug off and leaves him unconscious and useless.

Sue usually escapes this pitfall as, like I've said above, power developments is the only thing she gets. But Slott's run doesn't even give her that. This has been the most ineffectual she's been in a long time.

Things need to change because the team has been lacking for a while now, even before Slott.

[Snoop Dogg]

Their powers aren't an issue. They're all extremely powerful but also specialized so they can be written around. Ben shouldn't be as strong as the Hulk, Ben's best fights are the ones where he has to pick himself off the ground and refuse to give up. Reed is already generally difficult to harm. Johnny probably needs more weaknesses because he controls a fundamental force with no downsides. And then Sue can still kill most characters instantly. They just need stories.

[juan678]

[danielsan52]

Spiky Thing and Boob-suit! My faves!

[Iron Maiden]

There needs to be change. The FF books for too long have been coasting on what Lee/Kirby did and barely developing the team or creating new adventures/threats. They've stagnated in many ways. Like when was the last time any of them used their powers in a creative and new way? It's a small thing, but important in these kind of books. The current run is too focused on the domestic aspect of the team and not in an interesting way. In doing so it has neglected the other important characteristics of what makes the FF - cosmic adventure and super heroics.

Other books are leaving them in the dust. The X-Men shouldn't be having more cosmic adventures and stories than the Fantastic Four. Venom's previous book had more of an impact and influence on the Marvel universe than the FF have had in years. Hickman was the last to give them stories that effected more than just what was in the FF book.
Their powers seem to be at the bottom of the list of things writers care to develop. The only exception is Sue at times because that is the only development she ever gets.

There was a time Ben was considered one of the big guns in the MU alongside Hulk, and while Hulk maintained his status Ben has fallen.

You used to often see Reed contort his body in unique and interesting ways, but now he just pulls an invention out of his ass and stretches.

Johnny's nova used to be his last resort that was compared to the sun, but now it's an attack most shrug off and leaves him unconscious and useless.

Sue usually escapes this pitfall as, like I've said above, power developments is the only thing she gets. But Slott's run doesn't even give her that. This has been the most ineffectual she's been in a long time.

Things need to change because the team has been lacking for a while now, even before Slott.

You're right about the X-Men taking over something what used to be the Fantastic Four's specialty....the FF were explorers more so than a fighting team. They went to the Microverse (not by choice I admit), made contact with the Inhumans and the Hidden Land. Reed created the portal to the Negative Zone, etc. And that came in a flurry of stories in the first 50 or so issues.

The Fantastic Four were invited to the Hellfire Gala and were made witness to all the thing the X-Men have been doing while they've been stagnating in their own title. I think marriage has made the Thing boring and tame. Johnny once more has been regressed again in his level of maturity. Reed has become a milquetoast who was a afraid to get Doom upset at the wedding. Sue is just....there. And I really don't like Slott's version of Sue. Writers shouldn't make her act like a mother to Johnny, which ties in to writers keeping Johnny in some sort of prolonged teenager state.

[Iron Maiden]

Their powers aren't an issue. They're all extremely powerful but also specialized so they can be written around. Ben shouldn't be as strong as the Hulk, Ben's best fights are the ones where he has to pick himself off the ground and refuse to give up. Reed is already generally difficult to harm. Johnny probably needs more weaknesses because he controls a fundamental force with no downsides. And then Sue can still kill most characters instantly. They just need stories.

Which is what I said in my post. Their domestic situation has been limiting IMO. Some writers have found ways to get around it and I think Hickman was better at balancing things out.

I think Ben should be ranked a bit higher than he has been. And Ben being the lovable loser doesn't cut it for me. Go back to the old FF stories when Reed had to stop Ben from tearing Doom apart. We don't see the powerhouse Thing often enough. Writers do tend to just make him a puncher. I remember how when he was part of the New Avenger and when they were on some mission Luke Cage told him to stay back and be a look out because things were too dangerous or something. Luke Cage isn't even in Ben's strength class. When has Luke Cage ever done this??

[Crimz]

Ben was an underdog because the FF often went up against powerful aliens and cosmic beings, but when it came to earth heroes he was among the top.

I think that when it comes to writers for the FF, Marvel should aim for the ones with the big ideas and good at the cosmic stuff. Those like Hickman and Ewing.