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  1. #811
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    I think this was done as the models for the Fantastic Four cartoon. The figures are probably streamlined (I think simplified would be an inadequate term) to make it easier for the animators. It captures the look very well of the FF at that time

  2. #812
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airtrap View Post
    I really doubt that's the final word on Sky. Too early in the issue for it to be anything definitive.

    Also the preview confirms the obvious, that Doom isn't marrying for love. It was always a political play for him, so all the outrage was for nothing.

    I wouldn't even be sure that the Wedding will even happen, he might just appoint Zora Queen before he goes off to space with the Guardians for a while
    I hope Slott doesn't create a new romanitic triangle with Lyja, Zora and Johnnie

    I don't know if Doom would handle Zora's one night stand with Johnnie very well...that might destroy the trust he has in her.

    In any case, I thought Slott's idea of the marriage was not in keeping how Doom sees as Zora as the daughter he never had (surprise Victor! you do have a daughter that Morgan le Fey has kept hidden from you). Doom could always adopt Zora even though she is an adult. It's been done before in other monarchies.

  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I hope Slott doesn't create a new romanitic triangle with Lyja, Zora and Johnnie

    I don't know if Doom would handle Zora's one night stand with Johnnie very well...that might destroy the trust he has in her.

    In any case, I thought Slott's idea of the marriage was not in keeping how Doom sees as Zora as the daughter he never had (surprise Victor! you do have a daughter that Morgan le Fey has kept hidden from you). Doom could always adopt Zora even though she is an adult. It's been done before in other monarchies.
    Sure adoption seems like a better idea, but a adoption ceremony (is that even a thing?) doesn't have the same ring as a wedding. There would be absolutely no reason for the FF (or anybody else really) to attend, with a wedding we get Reed as Best Man at least and we can integrate Johnny's lovelife.

    The though process was probably, writing Doom out the FF for while and advancing Johnny's romantic plot before the 60th Anniversary and have a nice event for marketing as a bonus and all that in just 3 issues.

    RE Lyja: It feels like in universe and real life it would be a hard sell for Johnny to get together with her again. Firstly in universe you have Alicia and N'Kalla hating her obvious reasons, that would need a redemption first and secondly Marvel will want to avoid any "Human Torch in love with his rapist" headlines. As a society we're way more sensitive to the subject nowadays and that was a textbook case of "rape by deception".

    I don't think it's impossible to redeem her but it would be way more complex than the B-plot of a 3 issue arc

  4. #814
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    I am starting to think that Sky was introduced for no other reason than to make Johnny look like a scumbag.

    I am not against Johnny finding that special someone...even if they go thru 20 years of courtship...but at this point there are very few options that I can see for that to happen. Frankie Raye (if that is really her who was in Heralds) maybe? But I may want her down-powered to her original levels just so writers don't try to fly her off into space again. Or maybe Wizard's daughter Cole...but there may be issues with the age gap since (IIRC) she was stated as 19 and Johnny is late 20s like Peter.

    Other than that I would probably say create a new character and go from there.

  5. #815

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airtrap View Post
    Sure adoption seems like a better idea, but a adoption ceremony (is that even a thing?) doesn't have the same ring as a wedding. There would be absolutely no reason for the FF (or anybody else really) to attend, with a wedding we get Reed as Best Man at least and we can integrate Johnny's lovelife.

    The though process was probably, writing Doom out the FF for while and advancing Johnny's romantic plot before the 60th Anniversary and have a nice event for marketing as a bonus and all that in just 3 issues.

    RE Lyja: It feels like in universe and real life it would be a hard sell for Johnny to get together with her again. Firstly in universe you have Alicia and N'Kalla hating her obvious reasons, that would need a redemption first and secondly Marvel will want to avoid any "Human Torch in love with his rapist" headlines. As a society we're way more sensitive to the subject nowadays and that was a textbook case of "rape by deception".

    I don't think it's impossible to redeem her but it would be way more complex than the B-plot of a 3 issue arc
    While it's possible to give Lyja some redemption, and that would take time, I'm not sure that's the road marvel wants to take. Outside of Tom DeFalco, has any writer portrayed Lyja as heroic? I know PAD included Lyja in a group of "heroines" but I have no idea how she acted in that story. But generally Lyja's been written as sneaky and underhanded. And I admit that I may have been harder on Lyja than she deserved. her original goal wasn't to break up Ben and Johnny's friendship, but that was merely her plan B when the original Secret Wars took Ben off the table.
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  6. #816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airtrap View Post
    Sure adoption seems like a better idea, but a adoption ceremony (is that even a thing?) doesn't have the same ring as a wedding. There would be absolutely no reason for the FF (or anybody else really) to attend, with a wedding we get Reed as Best Man at least and we can integrate Johnny's lovelife.

    The though process was probably, writing Doom out the FF for while and advancing Johnny's romantic plot before the 60th Anniversary and have a nice event for marketing as a bonus and all that in just 3 issues.

    RE Lyja: It feels like in universe and real life it would be a hard sell for Johnny to get together with her again. Firstly in universe you have Alicia and N'Kalla hating her obvious reasons, that would need a redemption first and secondly Marvel will want to avoid any "Human Torch in love with his rapist" headlines. As a society we're way more sensitive to the subject nowadays and that was a textbook case of "rape by deception".

    I don't think it's impossible to redeem her but it would be way more complex than the B-plot of a 3 issue arc
    I don't really like the "woke" version of what happened with Lyja. Was Johnny deceived and seduced? Yes but he was a willing partner. Besides, he forgave her a long time ago.


  7. #817

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I am starting to think that Sky was introduced for no other reason than to make Johnny look like a scumbag.

    I am not against Johnny finding that special someone...even if they go thru 20 years of courtship...but at this point there are very few options that I can see for that to happen. Frankie Raye (if that is really her who was in Heralds) maybe? But I may want her down-powered to her original levels just so writers don't try to fly her off into space again. Or maybe Wizard's daughter Cole...but there may be issues with the age gap since (IIRC) she was stated as 19 and Johnny is late 20s like Peter.

    Other than that I would probably say create a new character and go from there.
    I think Sky is either plotting against the FF, or in an innocent pawn in a Spyre plot against the FF. Johnny's scumbag status has been evident for many years as when he married who he thought was Alicia and went with his ex's sister Medusa.
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  8. #818

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I don't really like the "woke" version of what happened with Lyja. Was Johnny deceived and seduced? Yes but he was a willing partner. Besides, he forgave her a long time ago.

    The fourth panel pretty much screams out which head Johnny's thinking with.
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  9. #819
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I think this was done as the models for the Fantastic Four cartoon. The figures are probably streamlined (I think simplified would be an inadequate term) to make it easier for the animators. It captures the look very well of the FF at that time
    I didn’t even realize till a moment ago, Ben’s hands have all five digits.

  10. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I don't really like the "woke" version of what happened with Lyja. Was Johnny deceived and seduced? Yes but he was a willing partner. Besides, he forgave her a long time ago.

    Its not a "woke" thing. Its just a fact that what happened was rape and not a good look to try and have them get together. Especially as she tried to do it again only an issue ago. When you swap genders, say it was Sue and Super Skrull pretending to be Reed, most people get what it is.

    They can try to redeem her all they want but a romance between them is disgusting.
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  11. #821
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I think you have to consider it not rape the way most people think of it.

    It was a deceitful deception and seduction, but it is important to see it as just one of the many ways such things are happened in the soap opera context of which this series has always relied.

    You want to keep it coloring and framing it that way, but it really is not that exactly.
    And remember, Johnny went for Alicia/Lyja originally, not the other way around. Since Lyja's orders/plan (she was coerced too, when you get down to it) were to betray Ben, who can say that things just didn't evolve and the plan changed or was no longer, really, a plan.

    So I could make a deal and stop talking about Namor and Sue, if you stop this stuff about Lyja.

    As far as Sky, well, I get the feeling that most plotters are more long-range than we think, and I suspect something too, but I'm clueless.

    I think Lyja isn't over, for whatever purpose, because of N'kalla, mostly. We may find something else that will be high drama.

    In all of this, as usual, Sue needs better.
    Perhaps Sue will figure out the Zora thing, or Johnny will come clean with her.

    Again, we be going to high drama, I think.
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  12. #822
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    I am starting to think that Sky was introduced for no other reason than to make Johnny look like a scumbag.

    I am not against Johnny finding that special someone...even if they go thru 20 years of courtship...but at this point there are very few options that I can see for that to happen. Frankie Raye (if that is really her who was in Heralds) maybe? But I may want her down-powered to her original levels just so writers don't try to fly her off into space again. Or maybe Wizard's daughter Cole...but there may be issues with the age gap since (IIRC) she was stated as 19 and Johnny is late 20s like Peter.

    Other than that I would probably say create a new character and go from there.
    Frankie Ray is the only person Johnny can can have sex with because he should have flamed-on in orgasm. None of the girls he slept with should have survived love making with Johnny. Unless Johnny has an off switch. Does He?

  13. #823
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Frankie Ray is the only person Johnny can can have sex with because he should have flamed-on in orgasm. None of the girls he slept with should have survived love making with Johnny. Unless Johnny has an off switch. Does He?
    I presume he has mastered the art of staying flamed off during sex. Now, if, as I guess, Doom makes him not solid, there goes his fun.
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  14. #824

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I think you have to consider it not rape the way most people think of it.

    It was a deceitful deception and seduction, but it is important to see it as just one of the many ways such things are happened in the soap opera context of which this series has always relied.

    You want to keep it coloring and framing it that way, but it really is not that exactly.
    And remember, Johnny went for Alicia/Lyja originally, not the other way around. Since Lyja's orders/plan (she was coerced too, when you get down to it) were to betray Ben, who can say that things just didn't evolve and the plan changed or was no longer, really, a plan.

    So I could make a deal and stop talking about Namor and Sue, if you stop this stuff about Lyja.

    As far as Sky, well, I get the feeling that most plotters are more long-range than we think, and I suspect something too, but I'm clueless.

    I think Lyja isn't over, for whatever purpose, because of N'kalla, mostly. We may find something else that will be high drama.

    In all of this, as usual, Sue needs better.
    Perhaps Sue will figure out the Zora thing, or Johnny will come clean with her.

    Again, we be going to high drama, I think.
    Lyja's did rape Johnny, even if it was by deception. Was it soap opera? Sure. Was Johnny scum for agreeing to be with Alicia regardless of who initiated? Yep, total a-hole.

    The plan was for Ben and without Ben, Lyja had to do something to achieve her overall goal and that was Johnny.

    And as tired as some are of hearing about "eape", I'm tired of the "she vuz only followink orders" excuse. If she wanted to break away, she had all sorts of opportunities. She wasn't some rube with a bomb strapped to her walking into a bank; she was a trained and capable spy. Her actions when not written by DeFalco are constantly duplicitous and rarely honest.
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  15. #825
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    DeFalco and Ron Frenz's MC2 Fantastic Five has Lyja fully integrated into the team as a member and having a son Torus with Johnny. So even though that isn't the future of 616 it shows DeFalco was more than willing to portray Johnny and Lyja as happily married. If I recall correctly then artist and co-writer the late Paul Ryan revealed years later that Lyja's egg was meant to be real and not the bioweapon fake out it later turned out. Maybe in MC2 Torus was from that egg.
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