The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2021

[Oberon]

Well when it comes to Lyja or these soapy type situations I tend to be more of a s__t or get off the pot. There is only so much time that a returning, questionable character should be allowed a grace before considering or actually seeing they are evil.

So if Lyja doesn't do some serious damage or intrigue, we may not see it. I wouldn't find it convincing. So she must be there to move the Sky plot along in some way. That seems lame, whether you like. or loathe the character.

But Sue originally said something to the effect that this was like Crystal all over again, and that caught me. Because I do believe that Johnny Crystal was really the Romeo/Juliet story of the MU, and so sad that it could never be realized. I don't feel that way at all about Sky.

[danielsan52]

The only problem I can have with the FF is the high rate of 'one-off' type stories/characters or very short duration. Then never, ever seen or heard of again.
So despite whether Sky is any kind of great character, I would hate for her to vanish and never be brought up again.

After the initial run of Stan and Jack and maybe up towards the 200-somethings, we mostly had some characters or situations that had some impact. But I wouldn't mind seeing or hearing about Ben's friend/pilot who became Darkoth the Demon, for example.

Some of the characters, much later, during DeFalco run, should be seen again, especially because they were from different realities:

Reed's "sister" Huntara. I know Paibok/Power Skrull has been used a bit, and of course Lyja.

As much as I like new adventures I don't want redundancy with some concepts. I seem to remember there have been 2 or maybe more stories where some human inadvertanly 'evolves' and gains great powers, challenges the FF, or the World and then decides they need to find their destiny elsewhere. Where do all these freaks go? Shouldn't we know, LOL?

The problem is the insistence of only four team members. I wish they would have four core members and included associate ancillary members or teams. Future Foundation, Fantastic Force, Fantastix, Frightful Four could all operate under FF Inc. as well as past members.

[CaptCleghorn]

I guess Dorrie Evans should be the secret master mind?

Spoilers would have been the polite thing to do here.

You're funny. I guess Dorrie Evans should be the secret master mind? I know that Johnny has occasionally been associated with some regular human types (Byrne era?)
Of course there are some powered types, Namornita, and someone during the Claremont run whose name I forget. Who else? Is Nova/Frankie dead or otherwise out of the running?

It is a long list, isn't it? As for Frankie, dead is pretty meaningless in super-hero comics. Darla Deering probably should have a spot as well.

[Oberon]

The problem is the insistence of only four team members. I wish they would have four core members and included associate ancillary members or teams. Future Foundation, Fantastic Force, Fantastix, Frightful Four could all operate under FF Inc.

I liked their long ago era, pre #200, where Thundra, Tigra and the Impossible Man were ersatz members. - There was some weird thing with a counter Earth Reed (or parralel world?) becoming "a Beast". Though they never said it, these guys were FF memebers. And I know there have been other times like that too.

[Oberon]

Spoilers would have been the polite thing to do here.



It is a long list, isn't it? As for Frankie, dead is pretty meaningless in super-hero comics. Darla Deering probably should have a spot as well.

I love it! I'll remember the spoiler tags. But I do forget everyone, like DD (kinda iffy about that run, though the art was rather groovy).

I think it would be interesting to resolve the Johnny stuff in some way. I realize that married characters seem problematic for comic characters in general, but this would be the comic where it should happen, and seemingly has/does.

Johnny may be the imperfect or not necessary part of that. Maybe we need something else, but what is it, man?

. . . maybe Johnny, and Sky, should leave the FF, join an Avengers team and have their story be in perspective to the other stories there?

(except I dropped the current Avengers about a year ago, after a lifetime pretty much, seems really stupid or weird to me...)

[CaptCleghorn]

I love it! I'll remember the spoiler tags. But I do forget everyone, like DD (kinda iffy about that run, though the art was rather groovy).

I think it would be interesting to resolve the Johnny stuff in some way. I realize that married characters seem problematic for comic characters in general, but this would be the comic where it should happen, and seemingly has/does.

Johnny may be the imperfect or not necessary part of that. Maybe we need something else, but what is it, man?

. . . maybe Johnny, and Sky, should leave the FF, join an Avengers team and have their story be in perspective to the other stories there?

(except I dropped the current Avengers about a year ago, after a lifetime pretty much, seems really stupid or weird to me...)

Johnny's a man-child. I doubt we'll ever see a totally mature acting Johnny Storm. But we all know guys like him, who act like silly teenagers and are incapable of adult relationships while somehow holding down a real job. I get it and I'm OK with it. However, in Johnny's case, it would make sense to me to at least have him more mature than Franklin in dealing with the opposite sex.

Sky does need some personality building. I'd like to see her in some scenes with non-Johnny characters showing us who she is (or who she's pretending to be). I am totally willing to give Sky a chance here. Sure the cynical long-time fanboy in me has doubts, but Sky so far rates nothing other than an "incomplete" grade. Seeing Johnny and Sky on leave with an Avengers team might be fun. I didn't follow Ben or Johnny with their other roles so I missed a lot of the Johnny interactions. But Sky with more of the Marvel Universe would help her as a character with the readers.

[CaptCleghorn]

To me it's obsession. A lot of her actions are that of an obsessed stalker. From faking the baby to stalking Johnny as "Laura Green" just to stay in his life without his consent. Just show her actions for what they really are - obsessive and toxic.
Johnny was one of the only people who was kind to her, but she hasn't realized that it wasn't genuine as it was to who he thought was Alicia. Which is why we get the misplaced anger at him "forgetting her" and "moving on" as if the relationship was real. I think Lyja has the potential to be a sympathetic villain having her terrible past and current obsession be a tragic tale.

But sweeping the fact that she raped Johnny under the rug and put her in a romantic relationship with him is the wrong way to go and is frankly detestable in my opinion.

If Lyja is an obsessed stalker type, that seems like someone the Skrulls would not have wanted to partake in an espionage mission like replacing Alicia. They'd want someone to be cold, calculating and able to switch gears at a moment's notice. Falling in love with Johnny would be very risky for an operative in that position putting the mission in Jeopardy (cue Art Fleming Airplane joke here). I will need to reread the Lyja back story and what happened and what was done to her to see how much of her behavior was Skrull induced and how much was her being an amoral agent.

[Chris0013]

Johnny's a man-child. I doubt we'll ever see a totally mature acting Johnny Storm. But we all know guys like him, who act like silly teenagers and are incapable of adult relationships while somehow holding down a real job. I get it and I'm OK with it. However, in Johnny's case, it would make sense to me to at least have him more mature than Franklin in dealing with the opposite sex.

Sky does need some personality building. I'd like to see her in some scenes with non-Johnny characters showing us who she is (or who she's pretending to be). I am totally willing to give Sky a chance here. Sure the cynical long-time fanboy in me has doubts, but Sky so far rates nothing other than an "incomplete" grade. Seeing Johnny and Sky on leave with an Avengers team might be fun. I didn't follow Ben or Johnny with their other roles so I missed a lot of the Johnny interactions. But Sky with more of the Marvel Universe would help her as a character with the readers.

To me it seems like Sky was forced into the situation. I do like to see characters mature...especially someone in Johnny's position. I would like to see him in a serious relationship but one that grows over time. Maybe they could have done a series of 'bad' dates with Johnny where he is trying to get to know some women who are really just there for a good time and the dates are just terrible...until he finds someone and they click.

[Oberon]

If Lyja is an obsessed stalker type, that seems like someone the Skrulls would not have wanted to partake in an espionage mission like replacing Alicia. They'd want someone to be cold, calculating and able to switch gears at a moment's notice. Falling in love with Johnny would be very risky for an operative in that position putting the mission in Jeopardy (cue Art Fleming Airplane joke here). I will need to reread the Lyja back story and what happened and what was done to her to see how much of her behavior was Skrull induced and how much was her being an amoral agent.

That's a very good point and plays to the idda that no one expected her to fall in love. But beyond all this, we have to remember

the Skrulls are not human. They have some human qualities, but they have a paradigm all their own, and it may involve a very different way of looking at/feeling emotions than humans.

This gets lost in the translation or biz of comics and other literature. We only/mostly know our own paradigm and assume it is the same for / other religions/countries/nations/"worlds". True sci-fi/speculative fiction is best when it can take that into account.
We are fascinated with the other (the Datas, Spocks and other 'outsiders' in show) but we may not really be able to capture true essence of an alien culture; we morph it to our own expectations. This is Lyja; we're looking at her like a human operative with human emotions and foibles. She is not.

[Digifiend]

Johnny's a man-child. I doubt we'll ever see a totally mature acting Johnny Storm. But we all know guys like him, who act like silly teenagers and are incapable of adult relationships while somehow holding down a real job. I get it and I'm OK with it. However, in Johnny's case, it would make sense to me to at least have him more mature than Franklin in dealing with the opposite sex.

Sky does need some personality building. I'd like to see her in some scenes with non-Johnny characters showing us who she is (or who she's pretending to be). I am totally willing to give Sky a chance here. Sure the cynical long-time fanboy in me has doubts, but Sky so far rates nothing other than an "incomplete" grade. Seeing Johnny and Sky on leave with an Avengers team might be fun. I didn't follow Ben or Johnny with their other roles so I missed a lot of the Johnny interactions. But Sky with more of the Marvel Universe would help her as a character with the readers.

Would also mean they could bring back Johnny's fantastic Uncanny Avengers costume.

[Triniking1234]

If Lyja is an obsessed stalker type, that seems like someone the Skrulls would not have wanted to partake in an espionage mission like replacing Alicia. They'd want someone to be cold, calculating and able to switch gears at a moment's notice. Falling in love with Johnny would be very risky for an operative in that position putting the mission in Jeopardy (cue Art Fleming Airplane joke here). I will need to reread the Lyja back story and what happened and what was done to her to see how much of her behavior was Skrull induced and how much was her being an amoral agent.

The stalker stuff was added when they decided to keep her in the FF mythos. The reveal story was kinda like some random Skrull dude came up with the Alicia switch plan and forced Lyja to do it and she didn't have a choice cuz she was an underling so he was the real baddie. I guess the guy forgot about the plan or he just liked the relationship drama.

[Hcmarvel]

Well issue 28 was not very good. Even Silva's art wasn't quite as strong this issue. I had thought the book was turning around but between the awful Franklin retcon, and this weak conclusion to the arc, I may drop the book until Slott's off. This run just hasn't been for me

[CaptCleghorn]

The stalker stuff was added when they decided to keep her in the FF mythos. The reveal story was kinda like some random Skrull dude came up with the Alicia switch plan and forced Lyja to do it and she didn't have a choice cuz she was an underling so he was the real baddie. I guess the guy forgot about the plan or he just liked the relationship drama.

This is actually part of my point. If Lyja is being forced, there's an implication that she wouldn't do this voluntarily. The FF are a high value Skrull target and putting an agent is such an important (and difficult) role is foolish if her heart isn't into it 100%. Now we've seen other stories where a doctor is held at gunpoint and forced to operate on the bad guy. Somehow we see that doctor not want to kill and operate because they have the talent. Lyja would need to have some talents in this area. The skrulls would be foolish to put an inexperienced amateur in such a position.

[CitizenXXX]

https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/...967173120?s=19
Slott is obviously talking about visions of F4 deaths, these are important teasers for the future

I liked the issue, it was fun, epic and Silva's art and Arbutrov's color are fantastic.

[Digifiend]

I liked how Sue's nightmare allowed for Doom to break the fourth wall, by saying he's been fighting the FF for 60 years!