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  1. #826

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    DeFalco and Ron Frenz's MC2 Fantastic Five has Lyja fully integrated into the team as a member and having a son Torus with Johnny. So even though that isn't the future of 616 it shows DeFalco was more than willing to portray Johnny and Lyja as happily married. If I recall correctly then artist and co-writer the late Paul Ryan revealed years later that Lyja's egg was meant to be real and not the bioweapon fake out it later turned out. Maybe in MC2 Torus was from that egg.
    DeFalco has an extremely positive view on Lyja. Have any other writers.portrayed her as a hero?
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  2. #827
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    DeFalco has an extremely positive view on Lyja. Have any other writers.portrayed her as a hero?
    Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa made her conflicted in FF Secret Invasion. Peter David had her abducted by the Collector along with other super-heroines in She-Hulk: Cosmic Collision, but she had that mercenary edge when she whispered to She-Hulk's then business partner Jazinda that she recognizes her as the wanted daughter of the Super-Skrull, and was not above collecting on the bounty.
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  3. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    DeFalco has an extremely positive view on Lyja. Have any other writers.portrayed her as a hero?
    DeFalco is her creator after all so we have to use his take on her as canon don't we? She remained a member of the extended FF team after Reed's "death".

  4. #829
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Well, as in other serialized fiction: soap operas,

    if forced seduction or aggressive or deceitful seduction is Defalco/Defacto rape, than there are others who are not so called out as Lyja.

    So double standards bother me, in this regard.
    I can agree the nature of the game, Lyja and the Skrulls, was to infiltrate the FF, but this was now years ago, and Lyja has wandered the edges of some stories, as well as the Earth environment.

    Why is that anyway? If she is no value to their Empire, to be deployed elsewhere, brought back home, or further missions that are still not known, why is she around?
    The in-story reason may be she actually has sought / is still seeking redemption.

    and/or still/has/real feelings for Johnny.

    Take it at face value. Like I say many times, in soap/serialized fiction, a big focus will be characters/role/development and there is a constant movement for most main type characters between 3 roles, not in any order and not guaranteeing that their stays are equivalent or always present. in other words some characters may rarely shift to the different roles, but may.

    1) Victim
    2) Victimizer
    3) Redemptionist

    This is the most used method of character roles and development for all serialized fiction.

    Lyja has changed, you don't have to like it, but you may have to accept it.
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    Johnny may have forgiven Lyja, but I don't think Alicia has, and her children certainly haven't. It doesn't seem like Lyja would ever be welcomed as a member of the FF family as long as the Grimms don't want her anywhere near them. Her redemption would have to go beyond just Johnny.

  6. #831
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I agree, but there have been previous stories that suggested some sort of 'welcome' so to me, I would chalk this up to writers/editors not always following continuity.

    I def prefer the idea that seems to be going with N'kalla, so I'm highly curious where this drama will lead to.

    But expect confrontations to draw supporters on both sides, and possibly not just Johnny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmore View Post
    Johnny may have forgiven Lyja, but I don't think Alicia has, and her children certainly haven't. It doesn't seem like Lyja would ever be welcomed as a member of the FF family as long as the Grimms don't want her anywhere near them. Her redemption would have to go beyond just Johnny.
    maybe Alicia has other reasons to worry about Lyja. Ben once tried to ask her out





    For those who advocate that Lyja is a rapist I suggest you find another more worthy example for your advocacy. As Oberon has stated, this is just comic book soap opera. It's not a particularly well done example ... a patchwork quilt of a story done by the hands of John Byrne, Roger Stern, and Tom DeFalco. Byrne had started the subplot of Johnny and Alicia becoming attracted to one another while Ben decided to stay on Battleworld. Byrne would soon be leaving Marvel and the title and he has stated he wasn't even sure where the relationship would go from there

    "Worth noting, I suppose, that by the time I left the FF I had reached a rhythm with the characters that I was literally making it up as I went along. Letting the characters "tell" me where the stories were going to go, with very little actually plotting out beyond the issue I was working on. General ideas of where I needed to end up, but nothing specific.
    Because of this, I did not know when I left if I would actually have had Johnny and Alicia get married. I suspect not, but I don't know for sure. The characters themselves had not yet "told" me the way it was supposed to go!"
    Roger Stern would briefly take over the title and he had the couple marry in FF #300. Jumping ahead to Tom DeFalco's run on the FF Alicia's stepfather helps Ben to expose Alicia's Skrull imposter in FF #357. The Johnny/Alicia marriage was not popular with DeFalco and his fellow editors Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald. They joked around about how to fix the situation and Macchio made the joke that maybe Alicia was a Skrull. So there was not much of a thought process in resolving the Alicia/Ben/Johnny situation. So a subplot that began with not much of a plan gets even worse by DeFalco's solution that started out as a joke. The one positive thing was that it did dissolve a marriage that I suspect not many fans were fond of anyway. To turn it into some kind mini crusade is a bit misguided IMO

  8. #833
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Deadpool 30 years variant for FF #33. Liefeld's art is restrained here compared to his 90's style when his faces had so many stretch marks.



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  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    I presume he has mastered the art of staying flamed off during sex. Now, if, as I guess, Doom makes him not solid, there goes his fun.
    I've always been more curious about how Ben and Alicia handle sex, with him being made of rocks. I guess Ben still has that two weeks out of every year transformation, but that's still a long time to wait. I suppose, since Ben's not made of fire, that there are other things they can do in the meantime that wouldn't result in serious injury.

  10. #835
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I definitely don't think about this. Love is for souls, and all that.

    That is the beauty of Ben and Alicia, a love beyond appearances and 'grim' realities.

    but goes to my point about how roles can change over time, and mostly to keep characters fresh and interesting. Iron Maiden just showed how even Ben was willing to give Lyja a chance, if only because of his own needs too.
    I don't remember exactly why Alicia was not in the picture for Ben, if Lyja was out in the open. Off with the Surfer at that point?
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  11. #836
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    I'm sure no one here thinks that it was intended for what Lyja did to be sexual assault, but it is. It's one of those things where the writer didn't think things through and see the implications. It's happened before: Thor and Moondragon, Carol giving birth to her own assaulter.

    What Lyja did to Johnny was rape by deception, writer intent or reactions afterwards doesn't change that. It's also not the same as the trope where the spy hides their real identity. It's more insidious than that because Lyja became someone Johnny knew prior, someone he knew and trusted since he was a teen. It would be one thing if she was in her Laura Green form during all this, but she wasn't, she became Alicia. That's incredibly messed up.

    Also, her "just following orders" thing is not a good defense. Horrific things in history have happened because of that mindset and it doesn't change what happened to the victims.

    I'll never be fine with her being in a relationship with Johnny because it's frankly disgusting, and all the attempts to redeem her will fall flat for me when this major thing remains not being properly addressed.

    We can stop talking about the subject if everyone wants, but that is my stance on it and it will remain my stance. Abuse towards men, especially sexual assault from women, is often undermined or ignored and this situation is sadly another case of that. Writer intent doesn't change that.
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  12. #837
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    If we're going to call it rape we should add a qualifier because deceptive sex happened, with the identity revealed long after the deeds. People call Psycho-Man's manipulation of Sue "mind rape."
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  13. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I definitely don't think about this. Love is for souls, and all that.

    That is the beauty of Ben and Alicia, a love beyond appearances and 'grim' realities.

    but goes to my point about how roles can change over time, and mostly to keep characters fresh and interesting. Iron Maiden just showed how even Ben was willing to give Lyja a chance, if only because of his own needs too.
    I don't remember exactly why Alicia was not in the picture for Ben, if Lyja was out in the open. Off with the Surfer at that point?
    To tell the truth, I lost track of Alicia once it was revealed Lyja was impersonating her. It was revealed in FF #393 that her stepfather Phillip Masters had recreated the Liddleville technology from FF #236 and had placed Alicia inside of it. According to him, she had become depressed when she found out that Ben and Johnny both were no longer interested in her. So the Puppet Master did this to take that pain away. Ben understood his motives but removed Alicia's connection to the artificial world of Liddleville because he believed it was time for both of them to move on. I think her next appearances are in the J.M DeMatteis Silver Surfer comic after this. Glancing through a bit of that volume, it takes place during the time when the regular run of the Fantastic Four was ended and the Heroes Reborn Fantastic Four took it's place for a year. Alicia does eventually become a part of the FF cast in the relaunch after Heroes Reborn ends.


  14. #839
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I think her next appearances are in the J.M DeMatteis Silver Surfer comic after this. Glancing through a bit of that volume, it takes place during the time when the regular run of the Fantastic Four was ended and the Heroes Reborn Fantastic Four took it's place for a year. Alicia does eventually become a part of the FF cast in the relaunch after Heroes Reborn ends.
    Yep, and Agatha Harkness suddenly appearing out of nowhere in answer to Alicia's summons to help the dying Silver Surfer was in hindsight a foreshadowing of her reunion with the FF.
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