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  1. #841
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    E00N8ywWQAEuRtU.jpg

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    Moreover. that's all the artworks.

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I agree, but there have been previous stories that suggested some sort of 'welcome' so to me, I would chalk this up to writers/editors not always following continuity.
    There were past times where Lyja has been more welcome -- but her relationship with the team has had its ups and downs. In general the team has considered her an ally but she does have a history of lying to them and betraying them, even after her initial reveal as a spy in the midst. For example, there was the whole mess with her lying to them about being pregnant with Johnny' baby, and instead giving 'birth' to a weapon that tried to kill them all. During "Secret Invasion" she participated in the Skrull attack against the FF. Its true that she tried to manipulate the events to protect the FF (sending them to the Negative Zone instead of just blowing them up), but it was still an attack on the team she participated in. It is understandable that any trust or affection that some of the FF family has had for her may have been eroded by the various betrayals of trust. Just because they might not consider her an enemy doesn't mean they all consider her a friend anymore. Lyja falls in some grey area there--and probably different members of the family have different feelings about her.

    Its worth remembering that at the time Lyja was closest to the team and had her strongest relationships with them, was also a very rough patch for the group. Sue was unknowingly possessed by Malice, affecting her personality; Franklin had been kidnapped and replaced with his teenage self; Ben was dealing with his own personal issues with his scarred face, and then Reed was lost and presumed killed. They needed all the help they could get in those days -- so if Lyja wanted to stick around and make herself useful, then they weren't about to turn her away.

    Even Lyja's lies and betrayals back then might not have made as deep an impact then as they would now, simply because the FF were getting betrayed by their friends and loved ones at a ridiculous rate in those days! During that run, in addition to the Alicia/Lyja reveal and Lyja's subsequent baby lies, we also have Shary Ventura being exposed as a spy for Doom and later joining the Frightful Four after Doom's mutagen affects her mind; Agatha Harkness betraying the FF to help Nathaniel kidnap Franklin; Nathaniel kidnapping Franklin and spinning a web of lies and half-truths every single time he opened his mouth during that entire run; Sue's actions under Malice's influence, etc.

  3. #843
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    Its worth remembering that at the time Lyja was closest to the team and had her strongest relationships with them, was also a very rough patch for the group. Sue was unknowingly possessed by Malice, affecting her personality; Franklin had been kidnapped and replaced with his teenage self; Ben was dealing with his own personal issues with his scarred face, and then Reed was lost and presumed killed. They needed all the help they could get in those days -- so if Lyja wanted to stick around and make herself useful, then they weren't about to turn her away.

    Even Lyja's lies and betrayals back then might not have made as deep an impact then as they would now, simply because the FF were getting betrayed by their friends and loved ones at a ridiculous rate in those days! During that run, in addition to the Alicia/Lyja reveal and Lyja's subsequent baby lies, we also have Shary Ventura being exposed as a spy for Doom and later joining the Frightful Four after Doom's mutagen affects her mind; Agatha Harkness betraying the FF to help Nathaniel kidnap Franklin; Nathaniel kidnapping Franklin and spinning a web of lies and half-truths every single time he opened his mouth during that entire run; Sue's actions under Malice's influence, etc.
    I take all that into account and thank you for this summation.

    Lyja has actually done no worse than a number of others:

    Refer to soap opera themes, again: Roles change; people always end up being something other than what they may have been thought to be.

    Mysterious look alikes always turn up. Mysterious baby/parent issues always turn up.

    I don't remember the 'mike murdock' story (Matt's "twin" brother) but that is probably even more deceptive; he made up a whole other person, not just imitate one that exists. Did he ever make love, oh, I mean, rape, Karen, while she thought he was not Matt?

    Polyamory exists, which is why soaps sell. Despite what "we want", more people like to see

    what I might want. And I want Sue to be attracted to Namor, no matter what comes of it.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  4. #844

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I don't remember the 'mike murdock' story (Matt's "twin" brother) but that is probably even more deceptive; he made up a whole other person, not just imitate one that exists. Did he ever make love, oh, I mean, rape, Karen, while she thought he was not Matt?
    You brought up a very good point. Had Mike Murdock been with Karen with her thinking it's Mike, it would also have been rape by deception. This wasn't a thing back in the sixties, nor were comic characters engaging in premarital sex. If, at the time, Karen didn't want to sleep with Matt, and she did sleep with Mike, Matt's motives become an issue.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

  5. #845

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    And now, my (hopefully) final words on Lyja.

    It's clear there Lyja is a divisive character among the fans here. I am clearly in the "Lyja is BAD" camp of this divide. I do think she is an interesting character despite (or because of) her fluid alignments and her reticence to give up her deceptive mannerisms. My biggest complaint is a welcoming attitude from the FF where the transgressions have been particularly personal.

    Johnny, I get, he's a dog looking to find the next available woman. He'd say or do just about anything to get sex.
    Ben, I seriously don't get. Even the DeFalco written Ben pining for Lyja stuff was so blatantly out of character, it could have come from a porn parody of the four. Does anyone really think that page was true to Ben's character?
    Alicia's dislike is the only real example I see here. This woman masqueraded as her, set her up a someone who married her former boyfriend's best friend. And now that her daughter's very involved, I can certainly believe her making Lyja leave.

    Lyja is a good character, but a horrible person.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

  6. #846
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    My wife often says of certain characters in certain show or contexts:

    "I HATE that character!"

    and I say... You're supposed to. It is the way they're written.

    So whether some of us oddballs get off or like Lyja or not, that is the point.

    She grinds elements of the plot.
    If it wasn't her, it would be someone else, no doubt. Lyja may have come in through Johnny, but I think what will really be important is through Alicia and N'kalla. So it might make us like/hate her more.

    Or it may just make her more important for whatever reasons. Children aren't alway right, btw.

    What if N'kalla is not even really who we think, since . . . Skrull?
    Bait and switch is nearly always the name of the game.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  7. #847
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    On another note, I wonder if Marvel will be doing more for the teams 60th.

    Right now it's just an oversized issue and Life Story, which is pretty underwhelming if that's all.
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  8. #848
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Much like on their 50th anniversary, I think the Fantastic Four coverage is underwhelming. Have they had any FF themed variant covers on other titles?

    It's certain that the X-Men's Hellfire Gala is getting a lot more pages ....but then they do have a lot of ongoing titles that a crossing over.

    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    Hellfire Gala Outfits for the Fantastic Fours by Rachael Stott
    Attachment 110489

    Attachment 110490
    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    E00N8ywWQAEuRtU.jpg

    E00N9KxWEAUxVLv.jpg

    Moreover. that's all the artworks.
    Oy, Sue and Reed's outfits are terrible. Johnny's was better except not liking the back view. Ben looks like he's there to take out the garbage

  9. #849

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    On another note, I wonder if Marvel will be doing more for the teams 60th.

    Right now it's just an oversized issue and Life Story, which is pretty underwhelming if that's all.
    FF themed covers would be nice. FF has certainly had its share of other characters' variant covers on their book.

    It's puzzling that the FF anniversaries aren't celebrated more, as they are the anniversaries of the Marvel Age of Comics. In the past, we saw the face covers for Marvel's 25th. Heroes Reborn happened on the 35th. The FF's 10th anniversary was the month marvel's books went to 25 cents and gained a new cover style, although I'm not sure how relevant that was to the anniversary. Books this month having a 60 years of the marvel Age of Comics or some other celebratory message seems like an appropriate step.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

  10. #850
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dermie View Post
    There were past times where Lyja has been more welcome -- but her relationship with the team has had its ups and downs. In general the team has considered her an ally but she does have a history of lying to them and betraying them, even after her initial reveal as a spy in the midst. For example, there was the whole mess with her lying to them about being pregnant with Johnny' baby, and instead giving 'birth' to a weapon that tried to kill them all. During "Secret Invasion" she participated in the Skrull attack against the FF. Its true that she tried to manipulate the events to protect the FF (sending them to the Negative Zone instead of just blowing them up), but it was still an attack on the team she participated in. It is understandable that any trust or affection that some of the FF family has had for her may have been eroded by the various betrayals of trust. Just because they might not consider her an enemy doesn't mean they all consider her a friend anymore. Lyja falls in some grey area there--and probably different members of the family have different feelings about her.

    Its worth remembering that at the time Lyja was closest to the team and had her strongest relationships with them, was also a very rough patch for the group. Sue was unknowingly possessed by Malice, affecting her personality; Franklin had been kidnapped and replaced with his teenage self; Ben was dealing with his own personal issues with his scarred face, and then Reed was lost and presumed killed. They needed all the help they could get in those days -- so if Lyja wanted to stick around and make herself useful, then they weren't about to turn her away.

    Even Lyja's lies and betrayals back then might not have made as deep an impact then as they would now, simply because the FF were getting betrayed by their friends and loved ones at a ridiculous rate in those days! During that run, in addition to the Alicia/Lyja reveal and Lyja's subsequent baby lies, we also have Shary Ventura being exposed as a spy for Doom and later joining the Frightful Four after Doom's mutagen affects her mind; Agatha Harkness betraying the FF to help Nathaniel kidnap Franklin; Nathaniel kidnapping Franklin and spinning a web of lies and half-truths every single time he opened his mouth during that entire run; Sue's actions under Malice's influence, etc.
    Thanks for the flashback rundown to the DeFalco era. As the years go by I've come to terms with it in some respects. but I really hated it when I caught up. I had dropped comics when Byrne left the FF and Englehart's run was a stinker to me. Surprisingly Roger Stern's run just never seemed to take off. But maybe he was just a stop gap. But when I bought some FF back issues a few years afterwards there were very few things I liked about DeFalco run. I really hated how he implies that Kristoff's father is Nathaniel Richards. Thankfully in his last few issues, DeFalco has Nathaniel admit that he was telling a lot of lies. IIRC Hickman seemed to make a distinction between the Nathaniel that appears in DeFalco/Ryan's FF and the Nathaniel that Hickman uses. Paul Ryan drew a version of Nathaniel that has that unexplained eye pieces that makes it look like one of his eyes is artificial. This Nathaniel gets killed by the Nathaniel called The Beast in Hickman's Great Hunt which eliminated most of the Nathaniels in the Multiverse.


  11. #851
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Much like on their 50th anniversary, I think the Fantastic Four coverage is underwhelming. Have they had any FF themed variant covers on other titles?

    It's certain that the X-Men's Hellfire Gala is getting a lot more pages ....but then they do have a lot of ongoing titles that a crossing over.


    They had X of Swords and the current Hellfire Gala, and Inferno next year. That's a big story every year and the FF barely get one when it's their 60th.
    I get that the X-Men have more characters, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want the FF to have gotten more attention this year of all years. I bet the X-Men's 60th will be huge thing compared to the FF's.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    FF themed covers would be nice. FF has certainly had its share of other characters' variant covers on their book.

    It's puzzling that the FF anniversaries aren't celebrated more, as they are the anniversaries of the Marvel Age of Comics. In the past, we saw the face covers for Marvel's 25th. Heroes Reborn happened on the 35th. The FF's 10th anniversary was the month marvel's books went to 25 cents and gained a new cover style, although I'm not sure how relevant that was to the anniversary. Books this month having a 60 years of the marvel Age of Comics or some other celebratory message seems like an appropriate step.
    I'm tired of begging for scraps from Marvel and wanting them to give the team the attention they deserve. When they give them any attention it's always about Lee/Kirby's run, I'm tired of it. There have been more runs since the initial run that have been important for the franchise.
    Last edited by Crimz; 06-14-2021 at 09:31 AM.
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  12. #852
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Sure, I'm tired of FF only the sperm cell for everything else in the MU. or so it seems.

    I just don't follow very much, I read the recent revision of Xmen by Hickman, but it just didn't keep me with the X Men. Will always read the FF though.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  13. #853
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    On the big X-Men roster thing. I wish Marvel put actual effort into expanding the Fantastic Four franchise like they have with the X-Men and Avengers. Their previous "attempt" was lazy and halfhearted:

    They threw out that Future Foundation book and it's no surprise it didn't so well with zero set-up and not targeting the right audience imo.

    The Invisible Woman book was fun, but another case of no promotion at all.

    Why was Doom cancelled? It was Eisner nominated, I don't get the reasoning behind it.


    The FF definitely have the characters for multiple satellite books and all they just need to be given a real chance.
    Last edited by Crimz; 06-14-2021 at 10:03 AM.
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  14. #854
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Oy, Sue and Reed's outfits are terrible. Johnny's was better except not liking the back view. Ben looks like he's there to take out the garbage
    Yeah, I'm not sure what they were thinking with Sue. She's not an exhibitionist.

    Reed looks like he's trying to be a hipster.

  15. #855

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    On the big X-Men roster thing. I wish Marvel put actual effort into expanding the Fantastic Four franchise like they have with the X-Men and Avengers. Their previous "attempt" was lazy and halfhearted:

    They threw out that Future Foundation book and it's no surprise it didn't so well with zero set-up and not targeting the right audience imo.

    The Invisible Woman book was fun, but another case of no promotion at all.

    Why was Doom cancelled? It was Eisner nominated, I don't get the reasoning behind it.


    The FF definitely have the characters for multiple satellite books and all they just need to be given a real chance.
    Future Foundation needs to aim for a younger audience. This is one time I actually state MARVEL SHOULD!!!! Smart kids, wacky adventures, diverse cast. Books like Moon Girl, Squirrel Girl, Ms marvel, and Future Foundation are great gateway books.

    Sue's book was very good. Her focus was definitely off her usual situations and she looked very good in it. When we saw her that is, lol.

    Doom's book was wonderful and focused as aspects of Doom's life that we don't see that often when he's purely the antagonist in someone else's story. I don't pay attention to sales, but that is the first thing I thought of.

    And Marvel Two-In-One as an FF team-up book focusing on different members. Torch and someone one month and Sue the next, for example. The FF is fairly unique as a team book as the characters are the team and unlike other team books there is little opportunity to show how a specific character deals with others.

    An X-Men franchise isn't needed, but two or three books could support the franchise which got Marvel off the ground and seeded so much of its universe with concepts born in this book.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

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