The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2021

[Frontier]

Probably, but to me it stands out more because she hasn't done anything. Her role has been reactive rather than proactive like lead roles should be. So her personality and presence has become even more like that of a supporting character. Plus a lot of the time the standard for Sue in most FF runs is "the wife/mom with cool moments sprinkled in" with this run not even having the cool moments. I just expected more than that when the team returned and she deserves to be more than that.

I get it, although overall I don't think he writes a bad Sue. She doesn't feel like a supporting character to me even if she doesn't have an ongoing story. But that's just me.

[U.N. Owen]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around when "Oh My Stars!" became her catchphrase.

We all know her catchphrase is "Johnny no!"

The futures also represent my issue with how he handles Sue. Both Reed and Ben's bleak future's promise future plot points and stories for them down the line while Sue's is a narrative dead-end. It's a future decades away (which means it will never happen due to comics not wanting to age their characters that much) and Doom wins killing all the FF.

That's my problem as well.

Really, killed by Doom? Doom wasn't even saying anything interesting. He was doing his usual monologue. He has lost his mind about how Richards is now dead and is going to try and fail to spite him after death by killing Sue while also feeling hollow.

I was hoping Franklin would have just nullified the Griever, but I guess they have to save her for future stories. It's never been an automatic thing where the nullifier nullifies the user, that aspect has only been when the user loses concentration or cannot fully mentally grasp the target. Franklin being able to mentally grasp the target should have prevented his nullification.

Man Slott and Cates write the Surfer as more powerful than most high end cosmic entities. The Surfer being able to match/hold off the Griever for what was it 16 minutes and 4 seconds is pretty crazy. I love this minimal but impactful use of the Surfer.

I did think the ending to this felt a bit anticlimactic though, and I don't like seeing true villain Doom like in Sue's death bubble. I think that's one thing Slott has really faltered on.

Slott's failed on villains in general. We've had Griever, Doom, the Overseer, and Griever again. All of them have been written so pathetically, anticlimactically, and badly that I simply don't give any more **** about the conflict. That's a flaw of writing.

At least Knull, for his desire to destroy light like some Kingdom Hearts villain, actually added to the lore of the symbiotes in some way and filled in gaps like why the symbiotes don't have gods like other alien races.

Griever is a five-year-old who likes to stomp on sand castles.

Mutantfaker would be a more compelling villain. I'm not joking. Mutantface Manny has been set up unintentionally as a better villain than he is a supporting character.

[Triniking1234]

The issue was good but I'm not used to these "give the villain what they want = win" situations.

[CaptCleghorn]

I'm partial to "What the f*ck, Reed?!", accompanied by a facepalm and/or eyeroll.

There have been incidents where Sue does let lose with a cuss word or two. I like that about her. And being married to Reed Richards should make "WTF, Reed?" a common sentiment for her.

[CaptCleghorn]

I agree. Very underwhelming. For a cosmic conflict, there was way too much street level interaction. The embodiment of entropy should behave more abstractly and ominously.

I've been getting tired of shows and comics teasing us with glimpses of the future, so we can wait for intervening episodes to slowly catch up with the flash forward/nightmare and show where the tragic part was undone or misrepresented. I guess that will be the role of these 'likely death' nightmares. Slott bores me; get a kickass writer with big ideas instead.

I've said this about Slott since his Silver Surfer run. He aims big and deep, but fails to get the ball over the fence. I can't begrudge him for wanting to do this Gaiman/Moore/Morrison type stuff. After all, who really wants a comic book writer who's not having "Impossible Dream" in their head while writing? But although Slott hasn't really succeeded, I don't think he's embarrassed himself.

The futures scenes varied for me. Dragon Man's seemed the most likely to happen within Slott's run and a Diablo appearance would be good. Sue's was incredibly "meh". If the other three members of the team are dead, why is she still wearing a costume? And Doom's emphasis goes from Reed to her? I find this unlikely, but thinking about Sue actually becoming Doom's arch-enemy is a possibility that looks interesting. Ben and Reed having another major issue worth killing over isn't necessarily something we will see, but it does introduce doubt into a friendship.

And at this point, I will fanwank and defend much of this story. The Griever may not operate on a huge kick-ass non-subtle scale, but instead, she introduces a point, or drop of water which will start to erode and begin a destructive process. That may be a deeper more cosmic and philosophical ploy. Between this and Sue possibly becoming Doom's focus making Crimz happy (has he consider this?), we see either pretty good detail or me being a Slott apologist. The future will decide.

[Digifiend]

If the other three members of the team are dead, why is she still wearing a costume?

The FF being no more doesn't mean she'd quit being a superhero. Was there a 4 on that costume?

[CaptCleghorn]

The FF being no more doesn't mean she'd quit being a superhero. Was there a 4 on that costume?

Back before Secret Wars, there was a period where the Torch was believed dead. The book's title was changed from Fantastic Four to FF and in honor of Johnny's death, the remaining members of the team (and Spider-Man who joined) wore new costumes not looking at all like the Fantastic Four Uniforms. This was a far more recent development than Reed's apparent death in the days when Tom DeFalco wrote the book and costumes weren't changed. The attitudes regarding a lost team member have changed considerably over a 200 issue span. It seems very unlikely Sue would be wearing anything resembling a blue FF uniform decades in the future when she is the only survivor.

Now because the reasons why would require imagination and ideas, there are at least two reasons I could come up with. The first is Doom wanted to rub it in for Sue and put her in an old style F4 uniform. The other is that the Griever's scenarios were not photographically exact, but were made up of basic ideas and themes only.

[Thundershot]

I went to look something up in an old issue, and ended up reading several.. It involves Lyja.. First off, Paibok gave her the Lazerfist powers unwillingly, as she was “mostly dead” and he was definitely messing with her head to get Johnny. Then I noticed this panel...

4433F48A-7796-452B-89E8-386F980BAB68.jpg

Hopefully it’s readable since almost everything I upload here shrinks.

This is why I miss thought bubbles. As far she knows, she’s really pregnant with their child. It’s been a long time since I read these and memories can be funny... So even I thought she was pretending to be pregnant to get Johnny back.... she wasn’t. Paibok is the one who implanted her.

[Crimz]

I've said this about Slott since his Silver Surfer run. He aims big and deep, but fails to get the ball over the fence. I can't begrudge him for wanting to do this Gaiman/Moore/Morrison type stuff. After all, who really wants a comic book writer who's not having "Impossible Dream" in their head while writing? But although Slott hasn't really succeeded, I don't think he's embarrassed himself.

The futures scenes varied for me. Dragon Man's seemed the most likely to happen within Slott's run and a Diablo appearance would be good. Sue's was incredibly "meh". If the other three members of the team are dead, why is she still wearing a costume? And Doom's emphasis goes from Reed to her? I find this unlikely, but thinking about Sue actually becoming Doom's arch-enemy is a possibility that looks interesting. Ben and Reed having another major issue worth killing over isn't necessarily something we will see, but it does introduce doubt into a friendship.

And at this point, I will fanwank and defend much of this story. The Griever may not operate on a huge kick-ass non-subtle scale, but instead, she introduces a point, or drop of water which will start to erode and begin a destructive process. That may be a deeper more cosmic and philosophical ploy. Between this and Sue possibly becoming Doom's focus making Crimz happy (has he consider this?), we see either pretty good detail or me being a Slott apologist. The future will decide.

I think the others just died in front of her. I think their bodies were behind Doom if I'm remembering things correctly.

Not a fan of Doom switching focus. His focus always has and always will be on Reed first. Id prefer for Sue to get her own villain.

[CaptCleghorn]

I think the others just died in front of her. I think their bodies were behind Doom if I'm remembering things correctly.

Interesting. The Griever does say "one of your most likely deaths". If your assessment is correct, that would indicate the deaths of Reed, Sue, and Ben occur in different potential futures. The idea of Doom battling the FF when they're old enough to be mistaken for members of the JSA seems very sad to me. The FF were shown scenes that, I think, were designed to evoke sorrow and negative emotion. Sue living a life where her family has been killed by Doom over the years and finally he is on the verge of killing her seems more heartbreaking and destructive to me than the FF going down in a blaze of glory against Doom together. The only member of the four who didn't have a solo death was Reed and Ben being the one about to kill him was worse than dying alone.

The more I think about this, the more I really didn't think this was a good plot for the Griever. Her weakness, as shown in her first story, was an inability to create. And being able to speculate on probable events seems too creative for her. I may be going back and forth on her for years.

Not a fan of Doom switching focus. His focus always has and always will be on Reed first. Id prefer for Sue to get her own villain.

So Sue getting Doom in a divorce settlement wouldn't be to your liking? I just thought that you might have had some positive feeling about this. After all, even if Sue doesn't become Doom's arch-foe, Doom starting to see her as his biggest threat on the team is something.

[danielsan52]

I went to look something up in an old issue, and ended up reading several.. It involves Lyja.. First off, Paibok gave her the Lazerfist powers unwillingly, as she was “mostly dead” and he was definitely messing with her head to get Johnny. Then I noticed this panel...

4433F48A-7796-452B-89E8-386F980BAB68.jpg

Hopefully it’s readable since almost everything I upload here shrinks.

This is why I miss thought bubbles. As far she knows, she’s really pregnant with their child. It’s been a long time since I read these and memories can be funny... So even I thought she was pretending to be pregnant to get Johnny back.... she wasn’t. Paibok is the one who implanted her.

She was probably pregnant with N’Kalla and Paibok is likely the father.

[Thundershot]

She was probably pregnant with N’Kalla and Paibok is likely the father.

I don’t know about that. I think there was a baby with Johnny and Paibok either killed it without Lyja knowing or stole it (and it’s actually N’Kalla). Unlikely N’Kalla, though, since she seems to know Alicia... Either way, Lyja didn’t know at the time. She’s a victim in this, too..


C3E6A35A-C4A4-4B8D-BC93-A2E9B40F2F51.jpg

Edit: why is the attachment so small??

[Digifiend]

Maybe it exceeded the maximum file size, so it was shrunk? I prefer linking to external sites (you could use Imgur) than using attachments, for that reason.

Interesting. The Griever does say "one of your most likely deaths". If your assessment is correct, that would indicate the deaths of Reed, Sue, and Ben occur in different potential futures. The idea of Doom battling the FF when they're old enough to be mistaken for members of the JSA seems very sad to me.

You know, it's odd that Marvel doesn't have anyone like the JSA. There's Captain America and Namor, but they're both eternally young (due to the super soldier serum and Atlantean physiology). The third member of the Timely trinity, Human Torch, was an android and therefore also hasn't aged.

The only actual aged hero I can think of is Blue Marvel! And his existence is a retcon.

[Shadowcat]

Hydra Sue from Claremont’s Exiles run should become Sue’s archenemy. She could go by the nom de guerre of Malice. Dye her hair black or red to distinguish themselves from each other.

[shooshoomanjoe]

Always had a soft spot for the new FF