The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2021

[Reviresco]

For me it's the disrespect. Namor should not be able to disrespect Sue's husband and her choices with her saying nothing, it doesn't fit the character. She should call him out every time and shut it down.

Disrespect??? Namor saved Susan's marriage to Reed TWICE. He certainly seems to have more "respect" for her choice, than she has herself. I don't think it is all that 'respectful' of Susan to run to Namor and Atlantis when ever she has a problem with Reed. I don't think it's 'respectful' to use another man as a cudgel against your husband to get his attention. And I definitely don't think dressing Franklin in green scale speedoes around Reed was "respectful." Sue knows better than to say anything to Namor, given her actions and her desires.

That's not to say, I don't applaud Sue actively working to make sure Reed doesn't take her for granted, but the idea that Namor is the one who is "disrespectful" in this triangle is ludricrous.

Hickman did it right in terms of their relationship, Namor still flirted but Sue showed zero interest and that she has a limit he should not cross.

Showed zero interest? Sue was the one who leapt in front of Reed for the opportunity to deal with Namor. Sue was the one who was freezing out Emma, because Namor was paying more attention to Emma and the X-Men. And the 'limit' that Namor crossed had nothing to do with him flirting with her, and had everything to do with Namor NOT dancing attendance on her properly in her mind. Hickman had their relationship right, but it was all about the power dynamic between the two, and how they used each other, not about 'respecting' Sue's choice of Reed. TBH, I wonder how much of that dark sub-text Hickman intended.

[Reviresco]

You know, one of these days we’ll get a verse where Sue leaves Namor for Reed

That's the 616. ;p

[Reviresco]

I just want writers to stop it with Namor and Sue. It's over and been over for a long time and I don't like it when writers still go through the same exercise of Namor hitting on her and Sue rejecting him. A ally/friend should just be the extent of it

I agree with this entirely. I hate when Namor is used in a triangle where he literally stands zero chance. He's just there to 'liven' up a relationship that a writer doesn't know what to do with. And it's like the FF writers haven't read anything past the first 35 issues of FF, and certainly haven't read a Namor book. Like I said, Namor has MOVED ON. He saved Reed and Sue's marriage twice, and he's been married twice, and had several other relationships. Despite what the last two decades of FF writers throw out there, Namor is NOT mooning about Atlantis pining over Sue. Writers used to understand this.

I'd really like to know WHEN this pernicious idea took root again? I'm wondering if it wasn't with Heroes Reborn, when we started having numerous 'retellings' of the FF? I mean we had Marvel Adventures, Marvel Knights, Ultimate FF, Marvel Knights 1234, etc.

I disagree here. Although there is no way Sue would ever say yes, a man will sometimes continuing flirting even if he realizes there is no real hope. Or if there is no real hope. I' was married for well over 30 years and still flirted with her college roommates. Obviously nothing was going to happen, but it could happen. I also think Namor could be doing it to tease. As long as there is no real expectation of reciprocation, it can be a useful example of their relationship.

There's some writers who think Sue has said yes.

But I agree. Namor is going to flirt, because that's who he is. And he is an eternal optimist.

In that context, I can accept that but I'm not sure if that is what the writers are doing at times. I think if he is teasing her they need to write a better response for Sue and have her go along with his teasing her and not get angry about it.

I can't think of a writer who could do it well enough to make me overcome my distaste for the two decades of done badly. Okay, maybe Grant Morrison, but everyone else, needs to just move on. This horse has well and truly been beaten to death.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Since it's the 60th Anniversary of FF, here's my five favorite Fantastic Four stories (except for #1, not in any order)

1) The GALACTUS Trilogy.
One of the most underrated aspects of this story is that the "Galactus Trilogy" isn't a story of good and evil. Galactus is a cosmic force who isn't actively malicious, Silver Surfer the herald turns from bad guy to good guy moved by the humanity of Alicia Masters. The heroes don't win by outfighting or grandstanding but by scrapping by. So it's a great story but it's absolutely not a conventional superhero story by any means.

Other favorites
-- "This Man, this Monster" which for a long time used to be a standard in-house text-book at Marvel in terms of how to do comics (per PAD), and it's a great single-issue story and it has the ultimate Fantastic Four image, that single page panel of Reed entering the Negative Zone, "the highway to infinity - the junction to everywhere" one of the greatest Kirby images
Jack Kirby - FF#51 - Reed in Neg. Zone.jpg

-- "The Battle of the Baxter Building" is essentially Die Hard before Die Hard with Doom as a Proto-Hans Gruber and Ben Grimm as a Proto-McClane, and I liked the concept of a street brawl invading itself into the classy digs of the Fantastic Four's Baxter Building.

-- Fantastic Four #350 and #352 by Walt Simonson, aka the Reed and Doom duel across time. Perhaps Simonson's best story outside his Thor run this pulls out all the stops and delivers one of the most conceptually rich and visually exciting fight scenes of all. All of Fantastic Four's themes come together in this duel.

-- "Terror in a Tiny Town" comes early in John Byrne's run and there are other examples but I think this one is the best and quirkiest, mix of humor and drama.

There are other stuff I could cite. I regret that my picks are so Doom-centric (3 Doom stories at the top 5). I wish I could cite more of Hickman's but his stuff is stretched across a full arc rather than compressed in a single storyline or two. So it's hard to pick just one.

[Iron Maiden]

My list would be practically the same as yours but from Hickman's run I would add the "Three" arc/event that concluded with Johnny sacrificing himself to Annihilus's horde in the Negative Zone.

I'm going to be as guilty/Doom-centric as you and add this storyline
From the Chris Claremont/Sal Larocca run I would add the "Reed in Doom armor" arc. Doom isn't in it much since the Dreaming Celestial sends Doom back to Franklin's HR planet (or Planet Doom as he liked to call it) at the beginning. His story takes place in a separate mini done by Claremont.

For favorite Fantastic Four mini series I would name Grant Morrison & Jae Lee's Fantastic Four 1234

[Revolutionary_Jack]

My list would be practically the same as yours but from Hickman's run I would add the "Three" arc/event that concluded with Johnny sacrificing himself to Annihilus's horde in the Negative Zone.

I'm going to as guilty/Doom-centric as you and add this storyline
From the Chris Claremont/Sal Larocca run I would add the "Reed in Doom armor" arc. Doom isn't in it much since the Dreaming Celestial sends Doom back to Franklin's HR planet (or Planet Doom as he liked to call it) at the beginning. His story takes place in a separate mini done by Claremont.

For favorite Fantastic Four mini series I would name Grant Morrison & Jae Lee's Fantastic Four 1234

Thanks for these recommendations, I haven't read them. I have read tons of Claremont's X-Men run but I had the impression his FF runs were mixed.

[Doom'nGloom]

Happy 60th anniversary to Marvel's First Family, the heart and soul of the marvel universe! Since we're sharing our favorites here's one of mine

images.jpeg-15.jpg

I love courtroom drama and cosmic wackiness and this is the perfect mesh.

[Ravin' Ray]

And, as if on timing, Hasbro Pulse has revealed the latest Marvel Legends Fantastic Four set.

https://www.facebook.com/hasbropulse...76407749058796



I would have replaced the High Evolutionary with a villain who is more immediately associated with the FF, like say Diablo.

And here's a second set of the Storm siblings.

https://www.facebook.com/hasbropulse...76413339058237

[Iron Maiden]

Those look cool, Ray. That part of the line is cute because they use that retro style packaging. I think this is the first time the Pyscho Man and the High Evolutionary have had an action figure. IIIRC HE debuted in Thor didn't he?

[Iron Maiden]

Thanks for these recommendations, I haven't read them. I have read tons of Claremont's X-Men run but I had the impression his FF runs were mixed.

I don't think it's as bad as some. From what I recall, Claremont, who was the editor, had to take over when Scott Lobdell left rather quickly to take a job on the West Coast. Some have disputed that and said Claremont was going to be the new writer anyway. All I know is that I was buying Wizard magazine back then and they had a round table interview with several of the writers who were going to take over the titles that went on hiatus during the Heroes Reborn stuff. I know Lobdell was in the article and Mark Waid (for his Captain America).

I think Claremont messes up Crucible to start out with. I didn't get the impression that he was going to be part of the enclave. I think he would have made an interesting new villain but he's been sent to limbo by editorial. But around issue 14 or 15 things improved. I liked the Reed in Doom armor arc esp. I also liked Valeria von Doom...she was a fun character and I am glad that Sue eventually got to keep her as her daughter.

[Ravin' Ray]

IIIRC HE debuted in Thor didn't he?

Did a quick search and yes you're right, Thor #134 (November, 1966). HE hasn't met with the FF that often, to my memory. He did join up with Doom, Diablo, and Mad Thinker as assembled by Reed in Hickman's Future Foundation; then later in the Silver Surfer mini, he was confronted by the FF (with Spidey) as he used the Power Cosmic he siphoned from Norrin to terraform the Moon.

[Iron Maiden]

Did a quick search and yes you're right, Thor #134 (November, 1966). HE hasn't met with the FF that often, to my memory. He did join up with Doom, Diablo, and Mad Thinker as assembled by Reed in Hickman's Future Foundation; then later in the Silver Surfer mini, he was confronted by the FF (with Spidey) as he used the Power Cosmic he siphoned from Norrin to terraform the Moon.

Yes I remember that odd group of villains that Hickman gathered. And the Watcher was keeping an eye on things. I didn't read that other series though.

[Ravin' Ray]

Yes I remember that odd group of villains that Hickman gathered. And the Watcher was keeping an eye on things. I didn't read that other series though.

Hmm, I missed listing the Wizard. Would be nice to have a Frightful Four Marvel Legends set. Diablo's costume with that horned headset and shoulder pads would look fun on a figure too. And here is the SS mini on Marvel Unlimited, the FF appear in issues #4-5.

https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...er_2010_-_2011

[Iron Maiden]

Hmm, I missed listing the Wizard. Would be nice to have a Frightful Four Marvel Legends set. Diablo's costume with that horned headset and shoulder pads would look fun on a figure too. And here is the SS mini on Marvel Unlimited, the FF appear in issues #4-5.

https://www.marvel.com/comics/series...er_2010_-_2011

A Frightful Four set would be great. I don't think the Trapster or the Wizard have ever had an action figure. Sandman and Medusa have

[CaptCleghorn]

There's some writers who think Sue has said yes.

But I agree. Namor is going to flirt, because that's who he is. And he is an eternal optimist.

To make myself clear, whether Sue has EVER said yes, or whether she'd say yes now are two different situations. I mean that Sue would not consent now. Whether she has in the past, I think, depends a lot of the timeframe the shifting timeline took place in. If we go by the original early sixties time of the original Namor/Sue meetings, they answer is no. However, as sexual mores have loosened up over the years, there was a real possibility of Sue and Namor getting together before she decided on Reed.