The Fantastic Four Appreciation 2021

[FFJamie94]

Has anyone else read Dwayne McDuffie’s run? It feels like it would have been a classic if it lasted longer.
(On a different note, I should read Hickman’s run soon).

[Xheight]

I liked the Johnny+Lyja marriage. :/

But you would have to admit that at the time you were in the minority. I have to say it has grown on me as a complication and this go round is showing that additive. As a traditional relationship that was still a loser for me and Here I am going to step on some toes perhaps but not fond of Ben and Alicia marriage. I see the arguments for it but am not persuaded which has as much to do with the heavy handed execution in my opinion as Johnny's Lyja story at the start seemed to be as pointed out the long term wasn't in Defalco's plan.

[Xheight]

Ok, so, in Byrne's story, who took the lead in connecting between Johnny and Alicia? It's less dumb if it's Alicia's idea... somewhat...

BTW it is Fantastic Four #358, by Tom DeFalco and Paul Ryan.

Byrne is innocent.

[TheCape]

Fraction had two books, Fantastic Four and FF. His Fantastic Four (F4) was OK and consisted of getting the FF out on exploratory stuff (which people say they wanted), but really was nothing exceptional. Good idea, but average work. His FF book with Micheal Allred was a lot more fun and dealt with a back-up team and the Foundation kids back at the Baxter Building.

Robinson's run separated the team and gave each of them their own challenges before it all came together for an ending right before Secret Wars.

IMO, the Fraction and Robinson stuff isn't necessary and skipping from Hickman's F4 and FF to his Avengers and New Avengers (NA was far more Reed focused) and ultimately Secret Wars works just fine. However Fraction's FF is very funny despite some flaws (which Iron Maiden will gladly tell you about).

Thanks, i already read Hickman's Avengers and New Avenger stuff. Also Secret Wars of course. I think that i'll check Fraction and Robinson run just out of curiosity.

[TheCape]

Has anyone else read Dwayne McDuffie’s run? It feels like it would have been a classic if it lasted longer.
(On a different note, I should read Hickman’s run soon).

I remember liking his "New Fantastic Four" issues when i read then, but it has been a while since that and i'm pretty sure that i didn't read everything. I know that at least T'Challa fans loved it.

[Iron Maiden]

I don't think there was any thought of that not being the real Alicia Masters in the John Byrne stories. I have seen no interviews or statements from anyone at Marvel one way or the other on this. Neither of the runs by Englehart or Simonson touched on this and with the Johnny/Crystal drama Englehart was dealing with that may have been a good time to pop the cork on that surprise. Because DeFalco used Lyja a lot and because she was introduced early in his run, my conjecturing says it was DeFalco's idea all along and nothing that was planned.

I recall John Byrne discussing the Alicia/Johnny romance on his forum some years back and he really hadn't decided how that would go. Most people think he was the one that married them off but it really is Roger Stern that did the deed in his brief FF run after Byrne left Marvel and went over to DC. I also recall reading that Stern assumed that John Byrne wanted the marriage to take place so he was simply following through.

Here is a link to Byrne's FAQ page on his forum and I will quote him here:

Q: Would Johnny and Alicia have gotten married if JB had continued writing the FF?

JB: By the time I left the FF I had reached a rhythm with the characters that I was literally making it up as I went along. Letting the characters "tell" me where the stories were going to go, with very little actually plotting out beyond the issue I was working on. General ideas of where I needed to end up, but nothing specific.

Because of this, I did not know when I left if I would actually have had Johnny and Alicia get married. I suspect not, but I don't know for sure. The characters themselves had not yet "told" me the way it was supposed to go! (8/12/2005)

Q: Whose idea was it for Alicia Masters to be revealed as a Skrull? Was it John's intention to have a Skrull masquerading as Alicia Masters when Johnny Storm fell in love with her or was that Tom DeFalco's idea?

JB: DeFalco. Undoing the Johnny/Alicia relationship was, of course, the prerogative of any writer(s) who followed me on FF. My only complaint: I wish DeFalco had not chosen such a clumsy and "comic-booky" (in the worst sense of the term) way of doing it. (8/12/2005) DeFalco wrote some of the best Spider-Man of the post-Stern years, but he seemed totally out of his depth on the FF. (1/25/2006)

CBR Columnist Brian Cronin also writes about the Lyja/Alicia switch in this column How a Joke Ultimately Led to Alicia Becoming a Skrull.

[Xheight]

I recall John Byrne discussing the Alicia/Johnny romance on his forum some years back and he really hadn't decided how that would go. Most people think he was the one that married them off but it really is Roger Stern that did the deed in his brief FF run after Byrne left Marvel and went over to DC. I also recall reading that Stern assumed that John Byrne wanted the marriage to take place so he was simply following through.
Here is a link to Byrne's FAQ page on his forum and I will quote him here:
CBR Columnist Brian Cronin also writes about the Lyja/Alicia switch in this column How a Joke Ultimately Led to Alicia Becoming a Skrull.

Thanks for correcting my memory of it. I put a lot of perhaps undue blame on DeFalco for soap opera scripting when Stern could be guilty of the same on occasion. Perhaps his good stuff just puts him in a higher category in my mind.

[Iron Maiden]

Thanks for correcting my memory of it. I put a lot of perhaps undue blame on DeFalco for soap opera scripting when Stern could be guilty of the same on occasion. Perhaps his good stuff just puts him in a higher category in my mind.

I think if anything this shows that there were too many cooks that created this "dish" concerining Alicia & Johnny falling in love leading to Alicia being a Skrull. And those cooks were Byrne, Stern & DeFalco. I think part of the problem was that the relationship with Ben & Alicia had gotten a bit stale. No one wanted to pull the trigger and have them marry. I'm still not so sure that was a good idea in the current FF run.

[Xheight]

I think if anything this shows that there were too many cooks that created this "dish" concerining Alicia & Johnny falling in love leading to Alicia being a Skrull. And those cooks were Byrne, Stern & DeFalco. I think part of the problem was that the relationship with Ben & Alicia had gotten a bit stale. No one wanted to pull the trigger and have them marry. I'm still not so sure that was a good idea in the current FF run.

fandom.com also reminded me that the Secret Wars gave people timing and situations to deal with imposed from the highest level.

After six years together Ben began to reconsider his relationship with her between Thing #2–10. Later, during the Secret Wars. In Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars #12 Ben decided to stay on Battleworld to sort out his feelings. He remained there from Thing #11–22. In the meantime, circa Fantastic Four #265 and as revealed in Fantastic Four #358, Alicia was replaced by the Skrull spy named Lyja who then started pursuing a relationship with Johnny. Ben fell for this ruse when he returned to Earth in Fantastic Four #277. This prompted him to leave the Fantastic Four in Thing #23.
He then began pursing Sharon Ventura in Thing #26.

[Iron Maiden]

fandom.com also reminded me that the Secret Wars gave people timing and situations to deal with imposed from the highest level.

If I recall Ben found a new girl friend in his solo series after Secret War ended and the Beyonder defeated, etc. This gave Byrne the chance to put She Hulk in the FF to fill in for him.

[Xheight]

If I recall Ben found a new girl friend in his solo series after Secret War ended and the Beyonder defeated, etc. This gave Byrne the chance to put She Hulk in the FF to fill in for him.

1-12 were by Byrne leading up to SW IIRC then by Mike Carlin etc. with more Byrne filling out the emotional breakup.

[marhawkman]

IIRC, Alicia is the one that made all the moves. At the beginning of the relationship Johnny felt guilty and apologized to Alicia for sleeping with her, but she talked him into keeping it going. Don't know if she was meant to be Lyja at that point, but it would makes sense for her to be pushing for this relationship for fear of failing her mission.

Yeah, seems like a really weird direction for the story to go in. Doesn't make sense to me. It's the sort of thing that'd make me, as a reader, think there was a hidden plot... like a Skrull imposter.

I think if anything this shows that there were too many cooks that created this "dish" concerning Alicia & Johnny falling in love leading to Alicia being a Skrull. And those cooks were Byrne, Stern & DeFalco. I think part of the problem was that the relationship with Ben & Alicia had gotten a bit stale. No one wanted to pull the trigger and have them marry. I'm still not so sure that was a good idea in the current FF run.

Honestly? the Ben and Alicia stuff could just get shuffled into the background if it's "boring".

But you would have to admit that at the time you were in the minority. I have to say it has grown on me as a complication and this go round is showing that additive. As a traditional relationship that was still a loser for me and Here I am going to step on some toes perhaps but not fond of Ben and Alicia marriage. I see the arguments for it but am not persuaded which has as much to do with the heavy handed execution in my opinion as Johnny's Lyja story at the start seemed to be as pointed out the long term wasn't in Defalco's plan.

Well, I jumped in AFTER the Alicia part was already history, so... I looked at that after the reveal had taken place.

[Doom'nGloom]

https://www.cbr.com/uncharted-direct...antastic-four/

Please be F4, please be F4, please please please.... (Hank, Janet, Scott or Nadia appearing in the game would be dope too. Scott's been part of the team before)

[CaptCleghorn]

Yeah, seems like a really weird direction for the story to go in. Doesn't make sense to me. It's the sort of thing that'd make me, as a reader, think there was a hidden plot... like a Skrull imposter.

Iron maiden posted an interview with Byrne that pretty much stated the skrull imposter was not his udea.

Honestly? the Ben and Alicia stuff could just get shuffled into the background if it's "boring".

Yeah, until Slott and his heavy handed family writing (which I do like), Ben and Alicia were not nearly as important a subplot.

Well, I jumped in AFTER the Alicia part was already history, so... I looked at that after the reveal had taken place.

DeFalco has been the only writer who has used Lyja the most. He has a much higher opinion of the character than other writers who have not written her as favorably. One could say that Lyja is DeFalco's pet character.

[marhawkman]

DeFalco has been the only writer who has used Lyja the most. He has a much higher opinion of the character than other writers who have not written her as favorably. One could say that Lyja is DeFalco's pet character.

Hmmm the Secret Invasion tie-in was good, and written by Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa, but it was a mini that left her in the Negative Zone. So didn't do much in the long run.