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  1. #1
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Default Doctor Doom Appreciation/Sorcerer, Scientist, King 2021


    Gypsy, Sorcerer, Scientist, King



    A brief recap of the origins of Victor von Doom from Avengers: The Children's Crusade #3


    Doctor Doom reading list by DoomScribe


    Fantastic Four - Annual 2 1964 Stan Lee/ Jack Kirby “Origin of Doctor Doom”; & “The Final Victory of Dr. Doom!” (2 new stories) Origin story. Then rescued from space (issue 23) by Rama Tut; Dr Doom uses berry juice to turn FF against each other; but defeated by Reed at the Encephalo-gun. **

    Marvel Superheroes 20 May, 1969 Roy Thomas/ Larry Lieber “This Man . . . This Demon!” Diablo. Retells Doom’s origin and the story of Valeria, as Diablo seeks a partnership to rule using Doom’s time platform, currently under armed guard at his replica castle in the USA. **

    Fantastic Four 86 May, 1969 Stan Lee/ Jack Kirby “The Victims!” The FF & villagers defeat Omnipurpose robots; Doom destroys the village but Sue’s shield saves them. **
    Fantastic Four 87 June, 1969 Stan Lee/ Jack Kirby “The Power and the Pride!” The FF storm the castle; Doom uses hypersound against Hauptmann to prevent destruction of valuable art. **

    Astonishing Tales 1 Aug., 1970 Roy Thomas/ Wally Wood “Unto You is Born . . the Doomsman!” Prince Rudolfo. Doom creates an artificial being using cosmic power and his own brain patterns; Ramona who looks like Valeria, sets a trap. **
    Astonishing Tales 2 Oct., 1970 Roy Thomas/ Wally Wood “Revolution!“ The Faceless One. Former Crown Prince Rudolfo seeks to usurp the throne of Latveria, aided by the mysterious Faceless, while the android Doomsman runs amok, toppling all in it’s path. **
    Astonishing Tales 3 Dec., 1970 Larry Lieber/ Wally Wood “Doom Must Die!” Doom and Faceless struggle for control of Doomsman; an earthquake destroys Castle Doom & the hopes of the Rudolfo’s rebels. **
    Astonishing Tales 5 Apr., 1971 Larry Lieber/ George Tuska “A Land Enslaved!” Red Skull. Doom battles Skull, is caught by surprise and trapped in an adamantine mummy, but he defeats them & uses shrinking ray on his enemies. **
    Astonishing Tales 8 Oct., 1971 Gerry Conway/ Gene Colan “Though Some Call it Magic!” Mephisto. Doom embarks on a dangerous battle with demons on a midsummer’s eve for the soul of his lost mother. The first telling of this tragic tale. *******

    Fantastic Four 116 Nov., 1971 Archie Goodwin/ John Buscema. “The Alien, The Ally and Armageddon!” The Watcher, and the Stranger. Reed is brainwashed by the alien Over-Mind (an Eternal), and Sue asks Doom to aid the rest of the FF in a desperate battle. *******

    Sub-Mariner 47 (vol 1) Mar-72 “Doomsmasque”
    Sub-Mariner 48 (vol 1) Apr-72 “Twilight of the Hunted”
    Sub-Mariner 49 (vol 1) May-72 “The Dream Stone” Sort of a campy story when read now, but overall an interesting take on these two titanic monarchs of the Marvel Universe told over three issues. An amnesiac Namor is re-acquainted with Doctor Doom, and taken on a hunt for the Cosmic Cube! With Modok. And contains a remarkably restrained, honorable, and self-reflective portrayal of Victor Von Doom.
    Marvel Team-Up 42 Feb., 1976 Bill Mantlo/ Sal Buscema “Visions of Hate!” Spidey has time traveled to the time of the Salem Witch Trials. The Vision is drawn into the conflict with the Dark Rider. Doom joins them to defend the past. **
    Marvel Team-Up 43 Mar., 1976 Bill Mantlo/ Sal Buscema “A Past Gone Mad!” The Dark Rider attempts to extract magical energies from Doom to increase his own power **
    Marvel Team-Up 44 Apr., 1976 Bill Mantlo/ Sal Buscema “Death in the Year Before Yesterday!” Moondragon. Doom is almost lost, but finally uses his magical might with the aid of the others to defeat the Dark Rider. **

    Super-Villain Team-Up 10 Feb.,1977 Bill Mantlo/ Bob Hall “The Sign of the Skull!” Captain American storms the Latverian embassy while Shroud and Rudolfo invade castle Doom, now controlled by Red Skull, who shoots down Doom & Cap’s plane. *****
    Super-Villain Team-Up 11 Apr., 1977 Bill Mantlo/ Bob Hall “My Ally, My Enemy!” Red Skull plans to use the Hypno-Ray, Doom & Cap are shrunk, but make way to the castle where Namor and Shroud assist them against the Skull *****
    Super-Villain Team-Up 12 June, 1977 Bill Mantlo/ Bob Hall “Death-Duel!” Doom and Red Skull battle on the Moon *******

    Fantastic Four 198 Sept., 1978 Marv Wolfman Keith Pollard “Invasion!” ***
    Fantastic Four 199 Oct., 1978 Marv Wolfman/ Keith Pollard “The Son of Doctor Doom!” ***
    Fantastic Four 200 Nov., 1978 Marv Wolfman/ Keith Pollard “When Titans Clash!” ***

    Superman and Spider-man Marvel Treasury Edition #28 1981 ***

    Iron Man 149 Aug., 1981 David Michelinie/ John Romita Jr “Doomquest” Iron Man and Dr Doom are sent to England of the past, to King Arthur’s court! ******
    Iron Man 150 Sept., 1981 David Michelinie/ John Romita Jr “Knightmare” Doom seeks to ally himself with Morgan LeFey, as Iron Man sides with King Arthur. But they must work together in order to return to their proper time. ******

    Fantastic Four 236 Nov., 1981 John Byrne/ John Byrne “Terror in a Tiny Town!” ******
    Fantastic Four 246 Sept., 1982 John Byrne/ John Byrne “Too Many Dooms!” *******
    Fantastic Four 247 Oct., 1982 John Byrne/ John Byrne “This Land is Mine!” *******
    Fantastic Four 258 Sept. 1983 John Byrne/ John Byrne “Interlude” *******
    Fantastic Four 259 Oct. 1983 John Byrne/ John Byrne “Choices” ****

    Secret Wars 1 – 12 (Limited Series) May 1984. Heroes and Villains are transported to Battleworld by the all powerful Beyonder, in order to battle to see who is the most powerful. Doom ostensibly leads the villains, all while plotting to take the power of Galactus, and then the Beyonder himself. ***

    Emperor Doom (Graphic Novel) Jun-87 Dr Doom has harnessed the power of the Purple Man, and has declared himself Emperor of the Earth, instilling peace and prosperity throughout the world. But one Avenger must decide whether to take the power away from him, and risk returning the world to one of strife and conflict. Stars the Avengers. *******
    Triumph and Torment (Graphic Novel) 1989 Roger Stern/Mike Mignola/Mark Badger. Doctor Doom and Doctor Strange battle Mephisto in order to free the soul of Doom’s mother from his infernal realm. Includes a synopsis origin story for each of the good doctors. ********

    Amazing Spider-Man 349 July, 1991 “Man Of Steal!”
    Amazing Spider-Man 350 Aug, 1991 “Doom Service!” Remarkable appearance for Doom’s ultimate restraint, and also for quite thoroughly kicking Peter’s butt. ****

    Doom 2099 1 – 40 January 1993 Sometimes brilliant, ended too soon. Issues after #40 are best left unread. ******

    Heroes Reborn: DOOM one shot, January 2000 “Doom!” ******
    Heroes Reborn: Ashema one shot, January 2000 “Ashema” ****
    Heroes Reborn: Doomsday one shot, January 2000 “A World Untamed” ******

    DOOM 1 – 3 (Limited Series); October 2000 *** (starts out strong) Remarkable also for the nekkid Doom vs the male African lion in to the death combat!

    Doom: The Emperor Returns 1 – 3 (Limited Series); January 2002 ** (ends poorly)

    Books of Doom 1 – 6 (Limited Series); November 2005. An expanded re-telling of the rise of Victor Von Doom, and the conquest of Latveria. Great new insights, fabulous art, very well done and highly recommended. *******

    Stan Lee Meets Doctor Doom – one shot December 2006. *** Amusing and ties in to continuity in interesting ways.

    Iron Man: Legacy of Doom 1 – 4 (Limited Series) April 2008; Iron Man and Doctor Doom tangle again over fragments of Excalibur, magic and science do battle. ****

    Doctor Doom & the Masters of Evil 1 – 4 (Limited Series) January 2009 **** A fun mini series aimed at all ages. Great individual moments downgraded by inconsistent art.

    Fall of Hulks: Alpha one shot, Feb-10 “Meeting of the Minds” The Intelligentsia gather knowledge from the world, Doom keeps it. Fall of Hulks was difficult to follow unless you got all of the Hulk titles, but this one-shot was a particularly nice showing for Doom. **

    Spider-Man & the Secret Wars 1 – 4 (Limited Series) January 2010 Another all-ages title, recaps Secret Wars from Spider-Mans POV, with Dr Doom; again providing a new take on a classic story. ****

    ___________________________
    The following notable Fantastic Four arcs are purposefully left off this list for unforgiveable transgressions against the Master, but there were some elements in each that were laudable. Reader, draw your own conclusions.
    Fantastic Four (vol 3) 67 – 71/500 May, 2003. “Under Her Skin” and “Unthinkable” parts 1 – 4.
    Fantastic Four 566 to 569, July 2009 “Doom’s Master” and “Million Year Old Doom”



  2. #2
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    COLLECTED EDITIONS:

    Doctor Doom TP Vol 2: Bedford Falls. Collecting Doctor Doom #6-10. Available February 17th 2021
    Doctor Doom TP Vol 1: Pottersville. Collecting Doctor Doom #1-5
    Savage Avengers TPB Vol 2: To Dine with Doom. Collecting Savage Avenger 6-10 and Annual #1
    Infamous Iron Man v1 Infamous (Infamous Iron Man 1-6)
    Infamous Iron Man v2 The Absolution of Doom (Infamous Iron Man 7-12)

    Secret Wars 2015 (Secret Wars 1-9, Free Comic Book Day 2015)

    Doomwar (Doomwar 1-6)

    Avengers: The Children's Crusade (Avengers: The Children's Crusade 1-9)

    Doctor Doom and the Masters of Evil (Doctor Doom and the Masters of Evil 1–4)

    Thor: Latverian Prometheus (Thor 604-606, Sif 1, and material from Thor 600)

    FF: Books of Doom (Books of Doom 1-6)

    Doom (Doom 1-3, Doom: Emperor Returns 1-3)

    Heroes Reborn: The Return (Heroes Reborn: The Return 1-4; Heroes Reborn: Doomsday, Ashema, Masters Of Evil, Rebel, Remnants, Young Allies And Doom)

    Doom 2099 The Complete Series by Warren Ellis ( Doom 2099 24-39 and material from 2099: The World Of Doom)

    Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment OGN 49
    Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment ( Doctor Strange and Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment OGN, Doctor Strange (1974) 57 and material from Astonishing Tales (1970) 8 and Marvel Fanfare (1982) 16 & 43)

    Secret Wars (Secret Wars 1-12)

    Iron Man: Legacy of Doom (Iron Man: Legacy of Doom 1-4)
    Iron Man vs. Doctor Doom Doomquest (Iron Man (1968) 149-150 and 249-250)

    Emperor Doom OGN 27

    FF: Overthrow of Doctor Doom (Fantastic Four (1961) 192-200)

    Essential Super-Villain Team-Up (Giant-Size Super-Villain Team-Up 1–2 and Super-Villain Team-Up 1–17) Black and White
    Super-Villains Unite: The Complete Super-Villain Team-Up (Giant-Size Super-Villain Team-Up 1–2; Super-Villain Team-Up 1–14, 16–17; The Avengers 154–156; Champions 16)
    Private War of Doctor Doom (Avengers 150-156, Annual 6; Super -Villain Team - Up 9)

    Marvel Masterworks Marvel Rarities (Amazing Adventures (1961) 1-5, Tales of Suspense 49-58, Silver Surfer (1968) 1-7, Marvel Super Heroes (1966) 20 and 23, and Astonishing Tales (1970) 1-8)

    The Villainy of Doctor Doom (Fantastic Four (1961) 39-40, 84-87, and 239-240 and Annual 2)

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    A new year and a new thread! It's the next best thing to visiting Latveria itself!


    ***Namor75 Celebration Threads***

    IMPERIUS REX FOREVER

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    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting that! I couldn't find my copy but this Mignola page is good to have on the first page! I think he did some in Marvel Fanfare, a comic I always had a hard time finding back then

    This is another thing I wanted to add to the intro section. I found this some years back on Sean Howe's website. He is the author of "Marvel Comics: The Untold Story". If you don't have this book I would recommend it because it has a lot of insider stuff that he gathered from interviews with current and former Marvel staff.

    This is a scanned document he has and IIRC he got a copy from Stan Lee or perhaps someone on staff at Marvel. As you can see, it has Stan's ranking on how important he feels the character is. I wish I could see what he scribbled out next to Doom's name.


  6. #6
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    INTERVIEWS, YOUTUBE AND PODCASTS

    the immortal Jack Kirby sketching Doctor Doom and explaining his small scar theory. Video hosted by the Jack Kirby Museum




    Doctor Doom series (2019-2020) Interviews with Christopher Cantwell

    WMQ Comics: Christopher Cantwell opens up on 'She Could Fly', 'Doom' and 'Everything' My favorite quote from this article "The character is dangerously arch, and you have to be careful writing him for a media-savvy audience in 2020. There has to be just enough self-awareness and humor. There has to be humanity without making him needlessly gooey. The villainy can be amped now to pretty high levels, to remind people that he’s a bad person, in a real world that is increasingly run by very bad people. To me, Doom is both Dr. Frankenstein and the Monster. He is able to love, but he feels he is unable to be loved" (January 24, 2020)

    Newsarama: Why Doctor Doom is one of Marvel's most interesting and enduring characters: Doctor Doom writer Christopher Cantwell opens up about why Victor Von Doom is one of the coolest comic book characters (November 24,2020)

    PreviewsWorld: Best of 2020 Interview: Christopher Cantwell's Doctor Doom "In the following interview, Christopher Cantwell gives a glimpse into the creative thought process behind DOCTOR DOOM, how 2020 impacted the series, and more!" (December 28th, 2020)

    Adventures in Poor Taste: A Not So Wonderful Life: Christopher Cantwell Reflects on "Doctor Doom". This is Cantwell's exit interview for the series (December 29th, 2020)

    YOUTUBE & PODCASTS

    Comic Watchers Show episode 112 Interview with Christopher Cantwell (January 14, 2021). The conversation starts with his Iron Man series and switches to a discussion of the Doctor Doom series at the 42 minute mark. There is also a viewer question about Boris and Kristoff at the that gets answered at the 59 minute mark

  7. #7
    All-New Member Prof.Chaos's Avatar
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    Rest in peace to the best to carry the villianous persona of DOOM on the mic the MF DOOM. Live a villian, die a hero. 918D356F-33F8-4E22-927D-ECBDDEF91B2E.jpg

  8. #8
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Hello fellow Doom Fans! I hope for good things for Doctor Doom this year, however I'm still processing and a tad upset over how the Doom series ended, alas that is a rant for another day. The Phoenix Doom thing was so pointless, the whole Phoenix Avengers arc is so pointless!
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  9. #9
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Hello fellow Doom Fans! I hope for good things for Doctor Doom this year, however I'm still processing and a tad upset over how the Doom series ended, alas that is a rant for another day. The Phoenix Doom thing was so pointless, the whole Phoenix Avengers arc is so pointless!
    Yes, I know what you mean about both. I can't help but wonder what the Doctor Doom series would have been like had Cantwell been able to continue instead of it coming to an end after 10 issues when it's clear now that he had a second arc already planned & plotted. I don't know how far along he was with the actual writing.

    I am planning on linking all Doom related interviews on the intro page, now that we have a handle on the reboot. Cantwell gave so many great Doom-related interviews or interviews with multiple topics where Doom is discussed. I don't know if you had a chance to read it but on the closed thread for 2020, he goes into detail about his though process on Doctor Doom #10. My gut feeling is that during the pandemic, Cantwell had worked on the second arc and then at some point it was decided to end the series with #10. Many noted that those last 3 issues seemed to cram a lot of events, or events that were just summarized in a splash page. There were a lot of things up in the air like the Mistress Death's role. She never returned to collect on her debt but it's just mentioned that Doom states he had now become her greatest servant by destroying the reformed Doom and his universe. The explanation of what happened to the Antlion...did it's destruction create a black hole or a worm hole... was wrapped up at a conference table. I expected Kang to return at some point but would have liked to have seen more with these frenemies. What about his meeting with Valeria in the underworld? That could have been the jump off to another arc. I still would like to see an attempt to save her from her fate, which was totally undeserved.

    I was a bit encouraged by Cantwell's exit interview with one of the hosts at Adventures in Poor Taste. A Not So Wonderful Life: Christopher Cantwell Reflects on Doctor Doom.
    Whether you agree with him or not you have to admit he does have method to the madness of writing Doctor Doom, who does have a lot of ups and downs in his publication history (*cough* "Unthinkable *cough*)

    It is a bit maddening because while Cantwell does acknowledge the potential in Doom but at the end of it all, he just isn't there yet. He can't be the other universe's Victor with just a snap of his fingers and say "This all ends...no more villainy from now on". We saw how that went in Infamous Iron Man. The "Bedford Falls" Doom didn't take any shortcuts. He served his time in prison, even though I think 10 years is a surprisingly merciful sentence, and cast aside the battle armor and all the trappings of a monarch.


    Oh, In just one sample, I know the smart move is too just ignore the Phoenix "event". They've not done anything original with the concept for decades IMO.

  10. #10
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Yes, I know what you mean about both. I can't help but wonder what the Doctor Doom series would have been like had Cantwell been able to continue instead of it coming to an end after 10 issues when it's clear now that he had a second arc already planned & plotted. I don't know how far along he was with the actual writing.

    I am planning on linking all Doom related interviews on the intro page, now that we have a handle on the reboot. Cantwell gave so many great Doom-related interviews or interviews with multiple topics where Doom is discussed. I don't know if you had a chance to read it but on the closed thread for 2020, he goes into detail about his though process on Doctor Doom #10. My gut feeling is that during the pandemic, Cantwell had worked on the second arc and then at some point it was decided to end the series with #10. Many noted that those last 3 issues seemed to cram a lot of events, or events that were just summarized in a splash page. There were a lot of things up in the air like the Mistress Death's role. She never returned to collect on her debt but it's just mentioned that Doom states he had now become her greatest servant by destroying the reformed Doom and his universe. The explanation of what happened to the Antlion...did it's destruction create a black hole or a worm hole... was wrapped up at a conference table. I expected Kang to return at some point but would have liked to have seen more with these frenemies. What about his meeting with Valeria in the underworld? That could have been the jump off to another arc. I still would like to see an attempt to save her from her fate, which was totally undeserved.

    I was a bit encouraged by Cantwell's exit interview with one of the hosts at Adventures in Poor Taste. A Not So Wonderful Life: Christopher Cantwell Reflects on Doctor Doom.
    Whether you agree with him or not you have to admit he does have method to the madness of writing Doctor Doom, who does have a lot of ups and downs in his publication history (*cough* "Unthinkable *cough*)

    It is a bit maddening because while Cantwell does acknowledge the potential in Doom but at the end of it all, he just isn't there yet. He can't be the other universe's Victor with just a snap of his fingers and say "This all ends...no more villainy from now on". We saw how that went in Infamous Iron Man. The "Bedford Falls" Doom didn't take any shortcuts. He served his time in prison, even though I think 10 years is a surprisingly merciful sentence, and cast aside the battle armor and all the trappings of a monarch.


    Oh, In just one sample, I know the smart move is too just ignore the Phoenix "event". They've not done anything original with the concept for decades IMO.
    Thanks for the link to that article its very insightful into Cantwell's thought process but I had a different opinion of Doom than he does when I read this statement:

    But ultimately our Doom has to reject this alternate reality because in order to accept it, he has to completely nullify who he is. Doom is too fatalistically proud to do that, at least our Doom is. So he either nullifies himself, or nullifies this universe. It’s clear what he chooses.
    I feel as though while Doom is a very proud creature he still wouldn't just decide to kill a whole world, he would have just killed his AU Self and been done with it, there was no point to killing everything in that Universe. What I think is that Doom saw this world where everything is perfect so it was like to him having the universe say: All those times you yearned for power, All those times you did the unspeakable for power, All the sacrifice, All that effort, all of it was in vain because you could have just CHOSEN to be happy, chosen to put all of your anger and emotions aside and chosen to be good. Which is b.s. imo. Doom is Doom because he thinks all of his efforts in the end is what will bring about a peace, also we did have Doom already try to be good! In Infamous Ironman. He already walked that path and got burned once more.

    Honestly I feel now that series is over that Cantwell is a mixed bag, he definitely understands Doom very well, his background, his character, and everything but there were key points that felt like he was simply cutting things away from Doom's character to bring him from point A to point B, like I still have an issue with Doom being so cruel and unkind to Boris and Kristoff. Also at this point I dislike Zora very much, there is no way a character created only 2 years ago has come to mean more to Doom and be his "hero" and adopted daughter. It just doesn't mesh imo.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

  11. #11
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Thanks for the link to that article its very insightful into Cantwell's thought process but I had a different opinion of Doom than he does when I read this statement:

    I feel as though while Doom is a very proud creature he still wouldn't just decide to kill a whole world, he would have just killed his AU Self and been done with it, there was no point to killing everything in that Universe. What I think is that Doom saw this world where everything is perfect so it was like to him having the universe say: All those times you yearned for power, All those times you did the unspeakable for power, All the sacrifice, All that effort, all of it was in vain because you could have just CHOSEN to be happy, chosen to put all of your anger and emotions aside and chosen to be good. Which is b.s. imo. Doom is Doom because he thinks all of his efforts in the end is what will bring about a peace, also we did have Doom already try to be good! In Infamous Ironman. He already walked that path and got burned once more.
    I think the problem with Doom becoming Infamous Iron Man was that he wanted immediate acceptance. For him, he just felt that by going forward as this new Iron Man would be enough to convince others that he was sincere. He was always going to have a problem with those who felt he did the crime but didn't do the time to prove that he had paid his dues. This is what the Victor in the other universe did. Now that other Victor was still a bit arrogant and was really not reading his other self very well. I don't want to say he caused his own death but he should have dialed it down.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Honestly I feel now that series is over that Cantwell is a mixed bag, he definitely understands Doom very well, his background, his character, and everything but there were key points that felt like he was simply cutting things away from Doom's character to bring him from point A to point B, like I still have an issue with Doom being so cruel and unkind to Boris and Kristoff. Also at this point I dislike Zora very much, there is no way a character created only 2 years ago has come to mean more to Doom and be his "hero" and adopted daughter. It just doesn't mesh imo.
    As for Zora, she has become quite prominent lately and if she appears anywhere it will probably be in Slott's Fantastic Four. That she has a some of the power cosmic is always going to make her more important to Doom than Kristoff unfortunately. I don't mind her presence as much as you do though. IMO almost any addition to Doom's supporting cast is welcome. At least Kristoff was rewarded with the title of governor of the Southern province of Latveria, formerly Symkaria. I hope that leads to some story potential with him.

    But I have to agree...why the hostility to Boris? That did come out of nowhere IMO. I guess we'll never know. My only thought is that one sometimes gets a sense from some of their encounters that Boris serves him out of fear and Doom knows this. And there could be some kind of need on Doom's part to do this to justify that he sold off Valeria to Mephisto. Does Boris know this? Does he ever wonder why she disappeared? I think Doom feels guilt over this and sometimes just seeing Boris may trigger that and it turned to anger.

    The part I think that needs to be revisited is that Doom already has a daughter that he has never met. And that is Doom's and Morgan Le Fey's daughter Caroline Le Fey. I really think she needs a major overhaul though. She was born in the past but her mother placed her in the near future at some point. Right now she is older than her father. She appeared only in Fearless Defenders a couple of years ago. I would rather they roll back her age to perhaps be no older than 17 or so. IIRC she is mostly human and I don't recall if she has her mother's near-immortality.

    To go off on a another tangent: At the end of Time Runs Out and before Secret Wars 2015 begins....we were only left with fragments of the Earths that were left. It seems to me that this means that the only survivors were those we saw in those different sections of Battleworld. For example Sue, Ben, Johnny, Franklin and Val were killed when their life raft was destroyed. When Reed got the Beyonder power from Molecule Man he got back his family so now he and Franklin could go about the task of rebooting everything. I assume it went back to the point where Black Swan first shows up in Wakanda. But how did Reed and Franklin pick and choose who would populate this rebooted universe. IMO they could just as easily brought back a lot of dead people if they didn't know they were dead. Why can't Doom's Valeria be alive back there living in Georgia as a fortune teller again?

  12. #12
    Fantastic Member DoomScribe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiusWrecked View Post
    Honestly I feel now that series is over that Cantwell is a mixed bag, he definitely understands Doom very well, his background, his character, and everything but there were key points that felt like he was simply cutting things away from Doom's character to bring him from point A to point B, like I still have an issue with Doom being so cruel and unkind to Boris and Kristoff. Also at this point I dislike Zora very much, there is no way a character created only 2 years ago has come to mean more to Doom and be his "hero" and adopted daughter. It just doesn't mesh imo.
    This is exactly right, and reflects my opinion as well. Like Iron Maiden, I don't mind new characters being added to Doom's pantheon, he needs them to have a balance to his story, and they can become important plot points later on. My distaste for Zora comes from her newness as well. Cantwell made her to be something like a grown-up Valeria Richards with power, filling that need Doom has for affection. But if Boris brings guilt to Doom by way of the loss of his granddaughter, wouldn't the same be true of Zora and her mother? Anyway, I admit that I was peeved at how Boris and Kristoff get thrown to the curb with last week's trash while Zora gets even more than a seat at Doom's side.

    I have other issues with Cantwell's take, including that Doom is not a coward, not in the least. Doom would not have gotten this far if he were. He acts out of anger, and pride and loss, yes, but not fear. His armor is not the outward manifestation of his fear but a tool by which he evens the playing field between him and the superpowered inhabitants of his world. It is also his retreat from his emotions. His whole being has been defined by love lost, the death of his mother and father, the persecution of his people in his homeland, and if he fears anything it is that he will feel what other men feel, that he will be manipulated by his own inability to control it. His rage is a manifestation of his loss, his armor is his protection against more loss.
    "Because ... I am Doom
    ... What Gods dare stand against me?"


    Posting from the dungeon of Castle Doom, Latveria

  13. #13
    Citizen of Atlantis ImperiusWrecked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I think the problem with Doom becoming Infamous Iron Man was that he wanted immediate acceptance. For him, he just felt that by going forward as this new Iron Man would be enough to convince others that he was sincere. He was always going to have a problem with those who felt he did the crime but didn't do the time to prove that he had paid his dues. This is what the Victor in the other universe did. Now that other Victor was still a bit arrogant and was really not reading his other self very well. I don't want to say he caused his own death but he should have dialed it down.


    As for Zora, she has become quite prominent lately and if she appears anywhere it will probably be in Slott's Fantastic Four. That she has a some of the power cosmic is always going to make her more important to Doom than Kristoff unfortunately. I don't mind her presence as much as you do though. IMO almost any addition to Doom's supporting cast is welcome. At least Kristoff was rewarded with the title of governor of the Southern province of Latveria, formerly Symkaria. I hope that leads to some story potential with him.

    But I have to agree...why the hostility to Boris? That did come out of nowhere IMO. I guess we'll never know. My only thought is that one sometimes gets a sense from some of their encounters that Boris serves him out of fear and Doom knows this. And there could be some kind of need on Doom's part to do this to justify that he sold off Valeria to Mephisto. Does Boris know this? Does he ever wonder why she disappeared? I think Doom feels guilt over this and sometimes just seeing Boris may trigger that and it turned to anger.

    The part I think that needs to be revisited is that Doom already has a daughter that he has never met. And that is Doom's and Morgan Le Fey's daughter Caroline Le Fey. I really think she needs a major overhaul though. She was born in the past but her mother placed her in the near future at some point. Right now she is older than her father. She appeared only in Fearless Defenders a couple of years ago. I would rather they roll back her age to perhaps be no older than 17 or so. IIRC she is mostly human and I don't recall if she has her mother's near-immortality.

    To go off on a another tangent: At the end of Time Runs Out and before Secret Wars 2015 begins....we were only left with fragments of the Earths that were left. It seems to me that this means that the only survivors were those we saw in those different sections of Battleworld. For example Sue, Ben, Johnny, Franklin and Val were killed when their life raft was destroyed. When Reed got the Beyonder power from Molecule Man he got back his family so now he and Franklin could go about the task of rebooting everything. I assume it went back to the point where Black Swan first shows up in Wakanda. But how did Reed and Franklin pick and choose who would populate this rebooted universe. IMO they could just as easily brought back a lot of dead people if they didn't know they were dead. Why can't Doom's Valeria be alive back there living in Georgia as a fortune teller again?
    PLEASE Do not get me started on the end arc of Secret Wars etc. There is so much more problems it brings up than it solves! As you said: How did Reed and Franklin go around choosing who lives and who dies? Why were we shown an AU Namorita in the first issues of 2018 Fantastic Four but we couldn't get the real Namorita back since she has canonically been dead since the Stamford Incident? (not counting her au past timeline self who pops up from time to time) Namorita was once a friend of the Fantastic Four so why wouldn't they save her? Why is T'Challa and Namor STILL fighting if Hickman had said that timeline went back to before Shuri's attack of Atlantis and Namor telling Thanos and Co. to go to Wakanda? If the timeline was set back then they wouldn't have escalated the whole Atlantis vs Wakanda stuff. Just so many problems, while I like Hickman's take on Doom and others it just gives me a headache to think about how we got Doom with a chance to have different plotlines and yet he was hero worshipping Iron Man??? For some reason, when we all know the only Hero/Great Mind, Victor ever cared about impressing was Reed. True Reed was "dead" but I dislike how all these chances were squandered. I honestly think Cantwell also had a very different plan that was sidetracked due to The Powers that Be at Marvel swooping him up for the Iron Man comic which cut his timeline short for Doom. We were supposed to have 12 issues, then 11, and we got 10. So two issues are missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoomScribe View Post
    This is exactly right, and reflects my opinion as well. Like Iron Maiden, I don't mind new characters being added to Doom's pantheon, he needs them to have a balance to his story, and they can become important plot points later on. My distaste for Zora comes from her newness as well. Cantwell made her to be something like a grown-up Valeria Richards with power, filling that need Doom has for affection. But if Boris brings guilt to Doom by way of the loss of his granddaughter, wouldn't the same be true of Zora and her mother? Anyway, I admit that I was peeved at how Boris and Kristoff get thrown to the curb with last week's trash while Zora gets even more than a seat at Doom's side.

    I have other issues with Cantwell's take, including that Doom is not a coward, not in the least. Doom would not have gotten this far if he were. He acts out of anger, and pride and loss, yes, but not fear. His armor is not the outward manifestation of his fear but a tool by which he evens the playing field between him and the superpowered inhabitants of his world. It is also his retreat from his emotions. His whole being has been defined by love lost, the death of his mother and father, the persecution of his people in his homeland, and if he fears anything it is that he will feel what other men feel, that he will be manipulated by his own inability to control it. His rage is a manifestation of his loss, his armor is his protection against more loss.
    Doom literally faces down death, the devil and fights lions with his bare hands. He isn't a coward. I would say he has severe emotional issues that prey on his need for control and power but that isn't a fear. He doesn't fear failure, he wants to overcome it. I think Doom dislikes Chaos and wants to be the Order that manages things. His armor is a manifestation of him wanting to cut all earthly ties and become more than human, more than the emotional ties that hold him to this world, iirc Kirby said that his armor/mask was supposed to look like a skull and represent death. However as we have seen when Doom gets what he wants he is bored and unhappy, he lives for the challenge of conquering the unbeatable. Doom has lost people he loved when he was very young, and he had no power and no control over the situations which is why I believe he strives for as much control as possible. Even when you see Doom speaking to his Doom bots before the wormhole you see him speaking only to things that cannot contradict him, that he can control.

    I'm not saying he cannot have fear but I think him fearing his emotions so much that he blows up a whole world is not what he would do, but I do believe he would have killed his other self because he honestly has done that before in the past against other versions of himself. Doom is an emotional man, he strives for control, his armor and mask are used as a tool to mask up his emotions because he can't just control his expressions like Reed does.
    "No one should ever question where my allegiance lies." - Namor of Atlantis

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