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  1. #586
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Storm is talking to a true, if corrupt, genius in the MU. Ewing is giving the reader (and Storm) a very important info dump about what they may be facing. She should listen and learn. Few people have Doom's level and scope of knowledge. He is master of science and sorcery. He's probably even holding some stuff back from her.

    This is his library of arcana.......what does she have to match that?







    As for John Byrne, he much is higher up in the hierarchy of Marvel writers. His Fantastic Four run is considered a classic. Ewing story in that Loki series is fairly obscure by comparison. And it's always possible that someone else will retcon the retcons.
    I'm not saying he is not a genius nor am I saying he isn't right. all I'm saying is if he truly wanted his messaged to be received in an open manner without hostilities his approach should have been drastically different.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO, THE OMEGA'S OMEGA, BEYOND OMEGA, THE VOICE OF SOL!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  2. #587
    Incredible Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
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    I still believe Ororo was overly aggressive. What was the point? A show of power against a person who faced godlike beings before and triumphed? Dismissing the warnings of what tempering with WHR may cause? I'm glad Doom kept his cool. There is no point arguing with someone if they are not going to listen.

  3. #588
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    We don't know if the Doom in the Ewing story was the real Doom. It could have been a Doombot sharing a memory network with the other robot Dooms and believing/acting like what happened with Arcade really happened. It is very hard to know when the "real" Doom appears -- Doombots have been demonstrated/proven to do so much including limited magic. It's far easier to know when it's NOT Doom than when it is! You know for sure it's a Doombot if they get damaged/destroyed thus revealing their nature or they display a limitation due to being non-organic beings. For example, there was a Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet story where Doom couldn't use the gauntlet because he (unknowingly to that point) was a Doombot.

    On top of that, the Ewing Doom could have been speaking metaphorically about allowing Arcade to strike a match "on him". He speaks about himself in the third person all the time. One way or the other, Byrne showed us a private moment where the Arcade Doombot was destroyed by "real" Doom so that event has to be reconciled.

    One more wrinkle...we don't know if the Doom at dinner with Storm was real or not either. Simulating eating is trivial with the level of technology Doom commands. And if it was a Doombot, it would have its own artificial memories of what was/was not a Doombot during the Arcade incident so ultimately, Ewing's Doom was right when he said he isn't a man -- he is the story of Doom. Awesome!

  4. #589
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    Are you sad that Doom didn't get married?
    I'm a bit ambivalent. I really thought Zora/Victorious being a bride for Doom was a miscasting for her by Slott. I liked it better in Cantwell's Doom series where he said that he views her as the daughter he never had. I don't know what the age gap is between them but I think she's probably a bit younger than Johnny. I think he could have accomplished what he sought by giving her a valid ranking like Princess Regent to empower her to take his place in this upcoming Last Annihilation mini event. I really think she really wounded him by sleeping with Johnny and she's gone down quite a few notches in his view.

    For these past two Doom arcs, Slott has used this same tactic against Doom and has the FF find ways to humiliate him, once deliberately by Sue and now Johnny doing it mostly unwittingly. Zora was the one that was stupid by making a public confession about it. Why did she thing that would go over well???!!!??

  5. #590
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    No not sad.

    In the meantime, in the absence of a CBR article about dining with Doom, I found this post from The Peerless Power of Comics blog, a site I sometimes visit.

    Come Dine With Doom
    Thanks for the link. I think I actually have had some posts over years in these now closed threads about Doom's various adventures in dining. I was putting a new one together that I will have to post sometime soon.

  6. #591
    The Spirits of Vengeance K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megatillo View Post
    We don't know if the Doom in the Ewing story was the real Doom. It could have been a Doombot sharing a memory network with the other robot Dooms and believing/acting like what happened with Arcade really happened. It is very hard to know when the "real" Doom appears -- Doombots have been demonstrated/proven to do so much including limited magic. It's far easier to know when it's NOT Doom than when it is! You know for sure it's a Doombot if they get damaged/destroyed thus revealing their nature or they display a limitation due to being non-organic beings. For example, there was a Thanos/Infinity Gauntlet story where Doom couldn't use the gauntlet because he (unknowingly to that point) was a Doombot.

    On top of that, the Ewing Doom could have been speaking metaphorically about allowing Arcade to strike a match "on him". He speaks about himself in the third person all the time. One way or the other, Byrne showed us a private moment where the Arcade Doombot was destroyed by "real" Doom so that event has to be reconciled.

    One more wrinkle...we don't know if the Doom at dinner with Storm was real or not either. Simulating eating is trivial with the level of technology Doom commands. And if it was a Doombot, it would have its own artificial memories of what was/was not a Doombot during the Arcade incident so ultimately, Ewing's Doom was right when he said he isn't a man -- he is the story of Doom. Awesome!
    You bring up some surprisingly good points about Doombots, especially their ability to perform limited magic.
    Kinda reminds me of Doom's confrontation with Tyros from Fantastic Four #260.
    Surely a Doombot isn't capable of performing the Ovoid Mind-Transference technique?
    Last edited by K7P5V; 07-30-2021 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Made Adjustments.

  7. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by K7P5V View Post
    You bring up some surprisingly good points about Doombots, especially their ability to perform limited magic.
    Kinda reminds me of Doom's confrontation with Tyros from Fantastic Four #260.
    Surely a Doombot isn't capable of performing the Ovoid Mind-Transference technique?
    I tend to think a Doombot cannot pull the Ovoid mind transfer nor have a soul. So a Doom in Hell (or similar astral plane) must be a real human being and you would think demons on the earthly plane would know if they are talking to a robot or someone with a soul, at least Mephisto would know if not all of them. Of course, that only applies to specific scenes. Doom certainly can swap in/out of a given storyline with a Doombot so you really can only pin down specific scenes.

    The hardest story I've seen to reconcile happened in Simonson's FF 350 where the Doom that Kristoff is fighting (and is shown with thought bubbles) is revealed to have been a Doombot while the "real" Doom has been gone for a long time and returns with a code word that instantly ends the war. The problem is the Kristoff-fighting Doom is supposedly the one that came back from the original Secret Wars and had the Beyonder restore his memories in FF 319. Secret Wars Doom had to have been real, his human body was shown being dissected. What we see in 350 only reconciles IMHO if the Beyonder gave missing memories to a Doombot that was fighting Kristoff. Beyonder surely would know this was a robot but perhaps didn't care. They tried to "fix" this in FF 358 by saying Doom just changes recorded history as suits him and the robots aren't sophisticated enough for independent thought -- what we saw in 350 didn't really happen. Implying the reader doesn't see what is really happening is difficult to swallow and lazy IMHO because it renders everything we read meaningless.

    Long story short, I think Marvel editorial puts less thought into these things than the fans do.

  8. #593
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megatillo View Post
    I tend to think a Doombot cannot pull the Ovoid mind transfer nor have a soul. So a Doom in Hell (or similar astral plane) must be a real human being and you would think demons on the earthly plane would know if they are talking to a robot or someone with a soul, at least Mephisto would know if not all of them. Of course, that only applies to specific scenes. Doom certainly can swap in/out of a given storyline with a Doombot so you really can only pin down specific scenes.

    The hardest story I've seen to reconcile happened in Simonson's FF 350 where the Doom that Kristoff is fighting (and is shown with thought bubbles) is revealed to have been a Doombot while the "real" Doom has been gone for a long time and returns with a code word that instantly ends the war. The problem is the Kristoff-fighting Doom is supposedly the one that came back from the original Secret Wars and had the Beyonder restore his memories in FF 319. Secret Wars Doom had to have been real, his human body was shown being dissected. What we see in 350 only reconciles IMHO if the Beyonder gave missing memories to a Doombot that was fighting Kristoff. Beyonder surely would know this was a robot but perhaps didn't care. They tried to "fix" this in FF 358 by saying Doom just changes recorded history as suits him and the robots aren't sophisticated enough for independent thought -- what we saw in 350 didn't really happen. Implying the reader doesn't see what is really happening is difficult to swallow and lazy IMHO because it renders everything we read meaningless.

    Long story short, I think Marvel editorial puts less thought into these things than the fans do.
    In this instance, there were some editorial issues that started when Doom seemingly died in John Byrne's Fantastic Four #260 in those panels posted. An astute reader would have picked up that Doom was using the mind transfer trick right off, something a Doombot couldn't do. But then things began to get tangled up when Jim Shooter put Doom in the cast of his Secret Wars when Byrne hadn't brought Doom back yet. I'm not sure how Byrne felt about that but he does address it towards the end of his FF run. After the mind swap Doom stayed in the body of a bystander from the Terrax/Surfer fight for a while.

    .


    Now to me, I would think that Doom's memories would have been restored at this point, but as you mention he forces Ben, Johnny and Sharon to seek out the Beyonder to regain his memories. Wouldn't the only memories he lost be the time he spent in the body of Norm MacArthur? How important could that be?

    As for the Kristoff vs Doom antics, I have to go back and read when they started fighting. I think it was just after Byrne left. Roger Stern has a brief run and part of it includes the wedding of Johnny and Alicia in issue #300. IIRC this is Doom's first FF appearance after getting his original body back. I guess I just can't figure out why Englehart's story was even necessary. I know Kristoff and Quicksilver are being kept in special cells by the FF but in FF Annual #20 (Steve Englehart), Kristoff is able to escape with the help of a Doom drone robot. Then the long senseless battle begins Doom and Kristoff Doom.


    Last edited by Iron Maiden; 08-02-2021 at 09:27 AM.

  9. #594
    Incredible Member DoomScribe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megatillo View Post
    Marvel editorial puts less thought into these things than the fans do.
    Exactly. This can be used to explain so much of the BS we're expected to just swallow.
    "Because ... I am Doom
    ... What Gods dare stand against me?"


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  10. #595
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/Marvel_FFightUS/...29387080347655

    The weapons of war are ready to be deployed in #MARVELFutureFight's v730 update. Check out the latest key art!
    Human Torch/Fantastic Four/She-Hulk/Disney Big Hero 6 /Tangled/G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero/Transformers G1 fanatic, Avatar-maker, and Marvel Moderator
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  11. #596
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    I still haven't downloaded that app. Is it any good?

  12. #597
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    I still haven't downloaded that app. Is it any good?
    Haven't tried it yet.

    In other news, AIPT has a wordless preview for Darkhold Alpha, and while Doom isn't in it, Victorious is, and she's wearing her mask at the end of last week's FF. Since Darkhold was originally meant for last year, I wonder if the art was updated to include that development and when exactly it fits in Doom's timeline.

    https://aiptcomics.com/2021/08/02/ma...ron-man-blade/

    Human Torch/Fantastic Four/She-Hulk/Disney Big Hero 6 /Tangled/G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero/Transformers G1 fanatic, Avatar-maker, and Marvel Moderator
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  13. #598
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting that Ray.

    Yeah, I have to wonder when they starting working on this. I know it was promoted before or just after the pandemic started.

  14. #599
    Extraordinary Member Witchfan's Avatar
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    I takes place before the Hellfire Gala.

  15. #600
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    I takes place before the Hellfire Gala.
    I wonder why they didn't put this out in the last year once things got under some kind of control? There had to be some work done on it last year because it was originally promoted for summer or fall. It's just like how the Doom solo got messed up. For some reason even though Cantwell had said he was already done writing it they didn't restart the series until fall of 2020

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