Doctor Doom Appreciation - 2021

[MaximoffTrash]

Not that familiar with Doom but how does he feel about deities/demons in general?(Especially the more powerful and less "human" ones like Elder Gods, Great Old Ones, the Octessence, etc.) He is a man of magic as well.
But not all magic users revere even their patron deities.

[Iron Maiden]

Not that familiar with Doom but how does he feel about deities/demons in general?(Especially the more powerful and less "human" ones like Elder Gods, Great Old Ones, the Octessence, etc.) He is a man of magic as well.
But not all magic users revere even their patron deities.

I get the sense that he has mostly disdain for them, with the exception of what Marvel calls The One Above which is a catch all for the Christian God,supreme being etc. I doubt he reveres ones like Mephisto, who we have seen is lower in rank than say Mistress Death. Mephisto usually doesn't grant powers and just generally tries to corrupt. But when he did face Mephisto in Infamous Iron Man he did have a healthy fear of Mephisto once he realized he was behind a lot of things that were bedeviling him, like the seeming return of his mother. He didn't want to face him until Doctor Strange showed up.

Right now Doom owes her his existence to Mistress Death , a debt unconsciously paid by using an Ultimate Nullifier to wipe out an AU that had a Doom who had overcome a similar life to become content with a wife & family and was the respected ruler of that Earth. He was so envious of this version of himself achieving things he feels he can never accomplish that he just had to erase it all. The fugitive Doom was killed by a shot to the head by Taskmaster early on in Cantwell's Doom series and that is when he came to Mistress Death's attention. She's is not associated magic AFAIK. Demons I gather would be inferior in rank to deities and he battled the demons in Mephisto's kingdom in Hell. I think the only use he has for the Elder Gods is to find ways into manipulating or wresting power from them.

[Iron Maiden]

I feel as though they could have given Doom a better motivation for the Darkhold event, but will see what happens. Despite getting trampled by some cannon fodder minions he survived and kept that high tootin Doom attitude he's made so famous.

But Chthon isn't a rival. That'd be like him considering Mephisto a rival. Shuma Gorath a rival. Galactus a rival. I get what they were doing with teh story, but I would have gone a different route.

Yes, his motive is pretty weak and bit vague, declaring he has a right to it as the ruler of Latveria. It would make for a stronger story if we knew there was some goal he has in mind, other than wanting to be all powerful...again.

Mephisto definitely has more of a history with Doom when you consider Triumph and Torment and Infamous Iron Man. I am never sure of the rankings of these entities but I think Chthon is an ancient entity perhaps predating Mephisto and with greater powers. Since I haven't read many stories with the Darkhold I checked out the Marvel Wiki and there are many times when different characters used the Darkhold without this property of driving the reader mad. In Doctor Strange Sorcerer Supreme #11 is cited as a story where in ancient times Thulsa Doom's followers used one of the Darkhold's spells to create the first vampire. I had forgotten that Doom uses a spell from the Darkhold in an old Excalibur story too. No mention of the danger in that either. It also contains a spell known as the Montesi Formula that supposed can be invoked to destroy all vampires.

[MaximoffTrash]

Mephisto is a Class Two demon which includes those who originated from the energy released by Atum after it slaughtered/devoured most Elder Gods, so pretty much like second gen Earth Gods. While Chthon is Class One which includes fallen Elder Gods and their direct kin. So yeah, Chthon is definitely older.
Yeah, Darkhold is not really a guranteed "madness from reading" judging from previous canon(though it's mostly the case for regular humans with no superpower or mystical training), Montesi family are said to be naturally resistant to its influence. I think the explanation here is probably it being the "OG Darkhold" and the others we saw previously are copies and stuff.

[Iron Maiden]

Mephisto is a Class Two demon which includes those who originated from the energy released by Atum after it slaughtered/devoured most Elder Gods, so pretty much like second gen Earth Gods. While Chthon is Class One which includes fallen Elder Gods and their direct kin. So yeah, Chthon is definitely older.
Yeah, Darkhold is not really a guranteed "madness from reading" judging from previous canon(though it's mostly the case for regular humans with no superpower or mystical training), Montesi family are said to be naturally resistant to its influence. I think the explanation here is probably it being the "OG Darkhold" and the others we saw previously are copies and stuff.

I hadn't considered the possibility of there being copies but that would explain a lot of examples of the Darkhold being used other somewhat ordinary characters in the wiki entry. I'd have to go back and check some of those out.

In another note, a while back Cian Tormey posted this image on his Twitter. Kind of intriguing since Doom is wearing a cloak with gold braid that is vaguely similar to a style that briefly appears in Doom 2099. But I guess Doom does have a closet full of these since they get ripped and damaged quite a lot

[Reviresco]

Doom had a cameo in Dark Ages 2, but it wasn't very Doom like. He was teaming up with the surviving egg heads in Wakanda to create non-electric technology for everyone.

That said, I got a distinctly Doom vibe from this issue, as in the Emperor Doom GN, but with Apocalypse stealing a page out of Doom's book. ;p

[Iron Maiden]

Doom had a cameo in Dark Ages 2, but it wasn't very Doom like. He was teaming up with the surviving egg heads in Wakanda to create non-electric technology for everyone.

That said, I got a distinctly Doom vibe from this issue, as in the Emperor Doom GN, but with Apocalypse stealing a page out of Doom's book. ;p

I did see that preview page with Apocalypse draining a captive Magneto as a power source. I'm sure the Magento fans are not to happy with that. But this takes place an an AU or something right?

[Lucyinthesky]

Your explanation does make sense in that it does shield Billy and Tommy from feeling they were somehow responsible when they had not reason to. I think many writers over the years have taken the wrong meaning out of Heinberg's scene and thought he was retconning House of M where Doom had a very minimal role. And I'm still not convinced it was the real Doom that appeared there anyway, as I expressed in greater detail in my earlier rant/post

Agreed, my guess is that Heinberg intention was to have the "life force" being partially responsible but keep Wanda´s guilty feeling so she could work with it and that part of Victor was just him trying to take off some of that blame from her, which the other characters either readily accepted because they care for Wanda, like Mags or Cap and those who just thought this was way too convenient like Logan and Cyclops. I think his intention was to keep this as an open ending and leaving Wanda deal with this issue at her own pace, with not everybody being behind her everytime, but later writers just ran with Doom being responsible even if this doesn´t make sense truly for anybody who actually read the comics. Fans have not buy this either imo.

Do you think CC Doom was a Doombot?

I did see that preview page with Apocalypse draining a captive Magneto as a power source. I'm sure the Magento fans are not to happy with that. But this takes place an an AU or something right?

Yes I am definitely not happy at all with that, I hope he does to this Apocalypse what he did to the one in AoA in the end. It will be just fair. :P

I hadn't considered the possibility of there being copies but that would explain a lot of examples of the Darkhold being used other somewhat ordinary characters in the wiki entry. I'd have to go back and check some of those out.

In another note, a while back Cian Tormey posted this image on his Twitter. Kind of intriguing since Doom is wearing a cloak with gold braid that is vaguely similar to a style that briefly appears in Doom 2099. But I guess Doom does have a closet full of these since they get ripped and damaged quite a lot

If this is official I think this scene is from Darkhold Omega, so I guess Wanda will team up with Victor again, to stop Chton.

[DoomScribe]

Doom also appeared (once, in a spread with the FF's greatest villains) in the 60 year Fantastic Four triple size issue #35. It is not a notable appearance so I'll spare you the expense if you didn't buy it and post a scan ...
Fantastic Four 2021 035 pg82 n 83.jpg

Kind of disappointing to have this be the only mention of Doom. But, since Doom just got a multi-issue showing in the bride of Doom story arc I guess the powers that be didn't have anything more to say.

And the latest appearances are continuing a trend of turning Doom back into the villain he tried so hard to expunge in Infamous and other recent stories. Sadly.

[Iron Maiden]

Doom also appeared (once, in a spread with the FF's greatest villains) in the 60 year Fantastic Four triple size issue #35. It is not a notable appearance so I'll spare you the expense if you didn't buy it and post a scan ...
Fantastic Four 2021 035 pg82 n 83.jpg

Kind of disappointing to have this be the only mention of Doom. But, since Doom just got a multi-issue showing in the bride of Doom story arc I guess the powers that be didn't have anything more to say.

And the latest appearances are continuing a trend of turning Doom back into the villain he tried so hard to expunge in Infamous and other recent stories. Sadly.

Yes, I have to agree. That is why I was disappointed when the reappearance of Doom in Savage Avengers turned out to be Conan in a suit of armor Doom had given him before he dies, which of course I assume this means we are in an alternate timeline or unverse ...whatever. One gets confused when Marvel decides to fudge things like this. Also, Dr. Strange (seemingly) is burned to death by Kulan Gath so that makes it more likely this is not in continuity. I am disappointed in that because I love to see how Victor and Stephen are *that close* to being friends or at the very least colleagues. This is definitely the vibe Al Ewing was giving in earlier issues.

I really liked that double page spread. It would make a great poster. I found the rest of FF#35 OK. I think Slott just doesn't have it in him to do something exciting.

[Iron Maiden]

Agreed, my guess is that Heinberg intention was to have the "life force" being partially responsible but keep Wanda´s guilty feeling so she could work with it and that part of Victor was just him trying to take off some of that blame from her, which the other characters either readily accepted because they care for Wanda, like Mags or Cap and those who just thought this was way too convenient like Logan and Cyclops. I think his intention was to keep this as an open ending and leaving Wanda deal with this issue at her own pace, with not everybody being behind her everytime, but later writers just ran with Doom being responsible even if this doesn´t make sense truly for anybody who actually read the comics. Fans have not buy this either imo.

Do you think CC Doom was a Doombot?

No, I think that would ruin a major part of the story. I think in his own way Doom really cared for her at that point. I go back to how he mentions it if only briefly in Darkhold. I think he's come to realize that even she is really angry about it (and again, that's subsequent writers doing that...not Heinberg's story) and he doesn't show any feelings about her rejection. He may still have good memories about it but she obviously doesn't. Would he have made a good husband for her? Probably not. I think Heinberg's story shows a major reason why. The biggest obstacle would be how the superhero community would react and we saw that.

It's kind of a shame we got no details on exactly how long she stayed there but I would have to think even amnesiac, it wasn't a rushed wedding. They were literally hours away from being married. I'm guessing she was there a number of months. Publication wise, the Scarlet Witch had not been in any comics for quite a few years IIRC.

Yes I am definitely not happy at all with that, I hope he does to this Apocalypse what he did to the one in AoA in the end. It will be just fair. :P

Darkhold IIRC is taking place perhaps a bit behind what is going in on the currently in the X-Men. I don't follow them much these days, even though I've read Hickman's issues at the beginning. It wouldn't surprise me if things go very badly at the end in his Inferno. How can you have someone like Apocalypse,etc part of your inner counncil. Maybe Krakoa will be not more. Sometimes I think the name, being so close to the famous volcano Krakatoa means every thing is going to erupt!

QUOTE=Lucyinthesky;5765781]

If this is official I think this scene is from Darkhold Omega, so I guess Wanda will team up with Victor again, to stop Chton. [/QUOTE] I hope so. I doubt there will be a reconciliation but it still would be great to see them working on a common goal together. I mention the relationship between Doom and Dr. Strange in my previous post. I don't think they will ever get there but it would be a change for her to realize he really did help her during a rough patch.

[Writerblog]

No, I think that would ruin a major part of the story. I think in his own way Doom really cared for her at that point. I go back to how he mentions it if only briefly in Darkhold. I think he's come to realize that even she is really angry about it (and again, that's subsequent writers doing that...not Heinberg's story) and he doesn't show any feelings about her rejection. He may still have good memories about it but she obviously doesn't. Would he have made a good husband for her? Probably not. I think Heinberg's story shows a major reason why. The biggest obstacle would be how the superhero community would react and we saw that.

It's kind of a shame we got no details on exactly how long she stayed there but I would have to think even amnesiac, it wasn't a rushed wedding. They were literally hours away from being married. I'm guessing she was there a number of months. Publication wise, the Scarlet Witch had not been in any comics for quite a few years IIRC.

I think the biggest obstacle was how Doom wasn't telling Wanda the truth about who she was. Marriages cant work when one part hides the truth.

I think Doom is a great foil for wanda, but the wedding was creepy AF

[Iron Maiden]

I think the biggest obstacle was how Doom wasn't telling Wanda the truth about who she was. Marriages cant work when one part hides the truth.

I think Doom is a great foil for wanda, but the wedding was creepy AF

Well, I disagree but different strokes,etc.

Even when she did remember who she was Doom was expecting her to call things off and he wasn't giving her an argument on that. She was the one who said she still wanted to go through with it. At no point does Wanda become angry or enraged all the way to the end of the story. Heinberg does leave it vague enough where one could see it both ways. Even Wolverine thought Doom's feelings for her were genuine.




I think they could have made it work for a while but the better pairing for him is probably Morgan Le Fey. She knows exactly what she would be getting and she would be okay with anything other than infidelity. She went berserk when she saw him sitting with Fem-Loki and Emma Frost while scrying their first Cabal meeting. They have a long relationship, going back those Iron Man stories when they first met back in the past. They were pretty comfortable with each other in Cantwell's Doom series.

[Ravin' Ray]

When I first read that I felt Morgan a bit… out of character in her speech? I expected her to be less modern-sounding conversing with Doom, unless she found it necessary to adapt to the times in her talk as well.

[Iron Maiden]

Yes, it was very different for her but I also felt that she was adapting to her surroundings. She obviously developed a taste for more modern music and perhaps learned from that. Like learning a new language and certainly listening to Lennon and / or McCarthy's lyrics were a very good teaching tool.