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  1. #4486
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Lots of people already do
    I'm talking about how the success of the onscreen stuff could positively benefit the comic books. The people like it when characters are following rules and limitations - that must be why neither cosmic nor magical characters are big in terms of sales on their own. Omnipotency sucks...In the comics. I agree with what Clea said earlier on the Strange thread. Make the magic consistent in the comic books and place less emphasis on continuity. I think Marvel Studios is doing GREAT with the mystical stuff and I hope they keep on keepin' on. But they could easily fuck things up like Star Wars, Harry Potter and Wonder Woman did. It's hard to maintain consistency over longer stretches of time with multiple movies and shows.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-22-2021 at 01:46 PM.

  2. #4487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I'm talking about how the success of the onscreen stuff could positively benefit the comic books. The people like it when characters are following rules and limitations - that must be why neither cosmic nor magical characters are big in terms of sales on their own. Omnipotency sucks...In the comics.
    I don't think most main heroes are omnipotent though. Mostly just the background guys like Eternity.

    Take Thor for example. Despite being a "god", his power set IMO is actually fairly mundane. He can't spin webs or go through walls or change his shape or control others' minds. He's just strong and throws a hammer and controls weather. Cool, but not especially wacky

  3. #4488
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think most main heroes are omnipotent though. Mostly just the background guys like Eternity.

    Take Thor for example. Despite being a "god", his power set IMO is actually fairly mundane. He can't spin webs or go through walls or change his shape or control others' minds. He's just strong and throws a hammer and controls weather. Cool, but not especially wacky
    Besides the hammer stuff, what's the difference between Thor and Storm when it comes to controlling the weather? I mean, what's the difference between Ororo's lightning and Thor's? How is her lightning NOT magical while his is? Shouldn't controlling the weather make Storm a magical character too?

  4. #4489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Besides the hammer stuff, what's the difference between Thor and Storm when it comes to controlling the weather? I mean, what's the difference between Ororo's lightning and Thor's? How is her lightning NOT magical while his is? Shouldn't controlling the weather make Storm a magical character too?
    Idk exactly what the difference is. Her power is based on the X-Gene.

  5. #4490
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Happy 300th page fellow Wanda Fans! We have been talking alot this year, lol!
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  6. #4491

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I don't have much confidence in Marvel magic. I'm not just talking about Wanda. Strange, Loki, Voodoo, Magik and Wong are in the same boat. I think Marvel writers and editors see magical characters as walking, talking deus ex machinas. So they're hesitant to use them. And I have to agree with them to a certain extent. It's not easy to write fantasy stories.
    Magik most of the time is written very well. Strange has had a few very good solo runs recently. Loki as well. Voodoo was pretty good as Sorcerer Supreme and while a bit player in UA and Savage wasn't done poorly. Wanda is really the only hold out there.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  7. #4492
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Idk exactly what the difference is. Her power is based on the X-Gene.
    Never could understand that whole mutant thing.

  8. #4493
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    It's a way to have multiple heroes without lengthy origins. It has it's advantages

  9. #4494
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Magik most of the time is written very well. Strange has had a few very good solo runs recently. Loki as well. Voodoo was pretty good as Sorcerer Supreme and while a bit player in UA and Savage wasn't done poorly. Wanda is really the only hold out there.
    I didn't know that! This stuff you mention is news to me. All I know is that on the Strange thread, his fans are just as frustrated as Wanda fans when it comes to the whole deus ex machina thing.

    And I wanna correct something about what I said regarding Quesada. He didn't actually say "It's magic. We don't have to explain it." Somebody made that comment to him and this is how he responded to it (in regards to One More Day):

    "I didn't say those words. But, here's the thing, from what you're saying here, it's seems to me you're splitting hairs. You can suspend belief for some things, but not others? I would completely agree with you if the Marvel U didn't have magical based characters. I mean the Scarlet Witch said "no more mutants," and magically millions of mutants lost their powers because of "it." "It" being "Chaos Magic." While there is no explanation for Mephisto's magic, is it any different than Doctor Strange's or Wanda's? Whenever they've done things, it seems that "it's magic" is all the explanation fans have ever needed. So, not to be nit picky, but I don't see the difference?"

    I guess most comic book fans seemed to have accepted that "it's magic" was a satisfactory explanation for that whole Decimation thing.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 04-22-2021 at 02:37 PM.

  10. #4495
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    It's a way to have multiple heroes without lengthy origins. It has it's advantages
    So basically Stan and Jack got lazy. LOL!

  11. #4496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I didn't know that! This stuff you mention is news to me. All I know is that on the Strange thread, his fans are just as frustrated as Wanda fans when it comes to the whole deus ex machina thing.

    And I wanna correct something about what I said regarding Quesada. He didn't actually say "It's magic. We don't have to explain it." Somebody made that comment to him and this is how he responded to it (in regards to One More Day):

    "I didn't say those words. But, here's the thing, from what you're saying here, it's seems to me you're splitting hairs. You can suspend belief for some things, but not others? I would completely agree with you if the Marvel U didn't have magical based characters. I mean the Scarlet Witch said "no more mutants," and magically millions of mutants lost their powers because of "it." "It" being "Chaos Magic." While there is no explanation for Mephisto's magic, is it any different than Doctor Strange's or Wanda's? Whenever they've done things, it seems that "it's magic" is all the explanation fans have ever needed. So, not to be nit picky, but I don't see the difference?"

    I guess most comic book fans seemed to have accepted that "it's magic" was a satisfactory explanation for that whole Decimation thing.
    That whole business was OOC to justify reducing the number of mutants. It's more of an editorial problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    So basically Stan and Jack got lazy. LOL!
    In a way, yes

  12. #4497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I didn't know that! This stuff you mention is news to me. All I know is that on the Strange thread, his fans are just as frustrated as Wanda fans when it comes to the whole deus ex machina thing.

    And I wanna correct something about what I said regarding Quesada. He didn't actually say "It's magic. We don't have to explain it." Somebody made that comment to him and this is how he responded to it (in regards to One More Day):

    "I didn't say those words. But, here's the thing, from what you're saying here, it's seems to me you're splitting hairs. You can suspend belief for some things, but not others? I would completely agree with you if the Marvel U didn't have magical based characters. I mean the Scarlet Witch said "no more mutants," and magically millions of mutants lost their powers because of "it." "It" being "Chaos Magic." While there is no explanation for Mephisto's magic, is it any different than Doctor Strange's or Wanda's? Whenever they've done things, it seems that "it's magic" is all the explanation fans have ever needed. So, not to be nit picky, but I don't see the difference?"

    I guess most comic book fans seemed to have accepted that "it's magic" was a satisfactory explanation for that whole Decimation thing.
    That's nonsense on Joe's part and he should know. He was just trying to brush off complaints. But his attitude is why magic characters are in the state that they are. He says they are deus ex machinas and he treats them as such. They're plot devices to him.

    If he read those stories, he would know 1. Bendis removed the whole Chaos magic thing. That was the big point in Disassembled. She was a reality warper and chaos magic was a lie. Using magic. What that means is ambiguous because she was a plot device for Bendis. I'm not sure what her powers were supposed to be in that story because I don't think Bendis knew. It was meant to be shock and awe so that he could destroy the Avengers.

    2. People did complain. Countless of people complained and said it made no sense and that she was never that powerful before. This site itself mocked and laughed at Bendis statement that we should reread the old stories to see how it fit. It didn't fit.

    3. Mephisto became a straight up god in one story to fit the plot Joe wanted with no greater concern about character or setting. The story ends with Spider-man cutting the deal with the devil with no repercussions. In most stories, cutting a deal with the devil is a bad thing but not in this one because it was a tool to get the story he wanted.

    The problem is modern writers. Not the rules. Joe complains about there not being any rules when he the one deciding to not use any rules. Maybe if it was god warping reality but isn't Mephisto a demon? But again it's writer's fault.

    Wanda's problem is not her powers. Her problem is that she, like the Vision, the Wasp, Pym, and sort of Clint was kicked out the book that was their home for years because they weren't A-listers and now are stuck wandering in the desert until a writer wants to use them. And that she has Bendis' story as an literal scarlet letter on her chest. It means she is stuck with her most famous story being her baby-crazy reality warper who wiped out mutants.

    Wanda was a solid character that existed from 60 years until Bendis. Why is that now and only now can they not get her to work? It's not because they can't and she's a mess. It because they, for some reason, have decided that Bendis' characterization is who she is.

  13. #4498
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanetaryDevastation View Post
    That's nonsense on Joe's part and he should know. He was just trying to brush off complaints. But his attitude is why magic characters are in the state that they are. He says they are deus ex machinas and he treats them as such. They're plot devices to him.

    If he read those stories, he would know 1. Bendis removed the whole Chaos magic thing. That was the big point in Disassembled. She was a reality warper and chaos magic was a lie. Using magic. What that means is ambiguous because she was a plot device for Bendis. I'm not sure what her powers were supposed to be in that story because I don't think Bendis knew. It was meant to be shock and awe so that he could destroy the Avengers.

    2. People did complain. Countless of people complained and said it made no sense and that she was never that powerful before. This site itself mocked and laughed at Bendis statement that we should reread the old stories to see how it fit. It didn't fit.

    3. Mephisto became a straight up god in one story to fit the plot Joe wanted with no greater concern about character or setting. The story ends with Spider-man cutting the deal with the devil with no repercussions. In most stories, cutting a deal with the devil is a bad thing but not in this one because it was a tool to get the story he wanted.

    The problem is modern writers. Not the rules. Joe complains about there not being any rules when he the one deciding to not use any rules. Maybe if it was god warping reality but isn't Mephisto a demon? But again it's writer's fault.

    Wanda's problem is not her powers. Her problem is that she, like the Vision, the Wasp, Pym, and sort of Clint was kicked out the book that was their home for years because they weren't A-listers and now are stuck wandering in the desert until a writer wants to use them. And that she has Bendis' story as an literal scarlet letter on her chest. It means she is stuck with her most famous story being her baby-crazy reality warper who wiped out mutants.

    Wanda was a solid character that existed from 60 years until Bendis. Why is that now and only now can they not get her to work? It's not because they can't and she's a mess. It because they, for some reason, have decided that Bendis' characterization is who she is.
    IMO those B-listers have more interesting powers than the A-listers

  14. #4499

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I didn't know that! This stuff you mention is news to me. All I know is that on the Strange thread, his fans are just as frustrated as Wanda fans when it comes to the whole deus ex machina thing.

    And I wanna correct something about what I said regarding Quesada. He didn't actually say "It's magic. We don't have to explain it." Somebody made that comment to him and this is how he responded to it (in regards to One More Day):

    "I didn't say those words. But, here's the thing, from what you're saying here, it's seems to me you're splitting hairs. You can suspend belief for some things, but not others? I would completely agree with you if the Marvel U didn't have magical based characters. I mean the Scarlet Witch said "no more mutants," and magically millions of mutants lost their powers because of "it." "It" being "Chaos Magic." While there is no explanation for Mephisto's magic, is it any different than Doctor Strange's or Wanda's? Whenever they've done things, it seems that "it's magic" is all the explanation fans have ever needed. So, not to be nit picky, but I don't see the difference?"

    I guess most comic book fans seemed to have accepted that "it's magic" was a satisfactory explanation for that whole Decimation thing.
    I think you are misreading their posts. At times magic is treated bad but not always. Strange went through a frustrating period of being depowered, twice and was used as a plot device in Infinity. But those were now over a decade or more ago.

    Quesada's stuff was 20 years ago.

    Decimation was not done through magic exactly. The life force is a cosmic power. Wanda tapped into it using her chaos magic abilities, but was not using her abilities when she depowered mutants. Which is why now she cannot reverse it. She lost the Life Force in Children's Crusade.

    And I can't seem to think of a time that Magik was used as a plot device. Her stories are usually with her as the main focus and fleshed out.
    Last edited by GenericUsername; 04-22-2021 at 04:18 PM.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  15. #4500
    Spectacular Member Covetous_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I think you are misreading their posts. At times magic is treated bad but not always. Strange went through a frustrating period of being depowered, twice and was used as a plot device in Infinity. But those were now over a decade or more ago.

    Quesada's stuff was 20 years ago.

    Decimation was not done through magic exactly. The life force is a cosmic power. Wanda tapped into it using her chaos magic abilities, but was not using her abilities when she depowered mutants. Which is why now she cannot reverse it. She lost the Life Force in Children's Crusade.

    And I can't seem to think of a time that Magik was used as a plot device. Her stories are usually with her as the main focus and fleshed out.
    Never really understood what the “Lifeforce” was. It’s really just a lazy written cop out, like the lifeforce of what exactly. It would have just been better if they had just let it be her powers growing out of control due to grief than just try to say “Doom did it”.
    “There is no defense against the Scarlet Witch's HEX!

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