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  1. #5581
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibara View Post
    Where is the idea that Zatanna is doing well over in DC (at least in the comics)? The general sentiment is one of dissatisfaction from most fans. They're retreading the same tired trope that Zee now has to fear her power and cannot or will not fully utilize them. She's been stuck in the same cycle of losing control and being de-powered since nu52. There's gratitude that she, at least, has a decent and consistent showing - but her display and control of power isn't something people are lauding DC for.

    Another major reason why Marvel can't simply have a magic rulebook in comparison to other fantasy universes is that those contained stories (with set beginning and ends) are fundamentally structured around a single system of magic that the narrative then utilizes to progress story or provide a lens/perspective for said story leading toward an eventual end or answer. However, Marvel (and DC) don't have one singular system of magic (Wanda, Strange, Nico, Loki, Mephisto all use different systems of magic) and no intended end for a multitude of stories. Simply "Magic-users" isn't a catch all term as different schools, abilities, rules, and limitations will be applied for different characters - similar to how "science" shouldn't be used as a catch all for anything remotely scientific (Physics, Biology, etc. relate but are different schools of study). Much less keeping that consistent would just hamstring writers.

    Like Generic said, I think powers in general are best used as an extension of character and I'm more interested in the intention behind the use than the display or superficial cost for said power. Because applying a cost for magic eventually leads to 2 scenarios. Writers are trapped in a box attempting to respond to how many "years" are shaved off or memories lost for Wanda using "x" spell that the cost becomes meaningless eventually reaching the climax where said "cost" becomes inconsequential as the eventual price needs to be paid or reversed, or said character becomes unusable as the only next step in their story is the conclusion as they've exhausted any reasonable way to maintain using their powers. That said - limits are necessary, costs not so much.

    You make a really good point about self-contained stories with fixed beginnings and endings. Rules are easier to apply in those circumstances, no question. I think the Harry Potter series is starting to seriously have some problems with consistency and continuity because of how long it has lasted. I think the MCU might have similar issues in the coming years. I'm just trying to come up with some ideas to make magic users more interesting in the Marvel Universe. I think DC has executed the whole magic with a cost thing better than Marvel has and that's why Zatanna has more appearances. Plus, DC is going full throttle with the whole Zatanna is a "horror" character right now, if I'm not mistaken. At least DC's trying to do something new and I applaud them for that. Marvel has a HUGE magical "galaxy" to work with, mix it the hell up already!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-11-2021 at 10:43 AM.

  2. #5582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Why should I stop? Is there a "rule" in these forums that doesn't permit discussion of this topic? And dude, you only have yourself to blame for my "obsession" (I simply call it curiosity) about "rules" in fantasy in the first place because you mentioned Brandon Sanderson to me on these very threads last year!

    And I think it's perfectly fine to quote other franchises. There's not THAT many ideas in fiction that are totally new and original these days. So I have NO problem when Marvel and DC adapt ideas from other franchises to improve their characters.

    I thought the NeverEnding Story had an interesting magic system:

    "When you changed something with magic, it changed in the past and future. So if you wished to be strong, you lost all memories of anytime you were weak. Over time most magic users ended up completely wiping their own identity and becoming drooling idiots. One of the main story arcs is the hero realizing this is happening to him, and then attempting to rediscover his identity."

    But I do agree with you that Zatanna benefits MASSIVELY by hanging around Diana. It's an interesting pairing and I think their partnership sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, Wanda can't tag along with an icon, so she's got some problems on that front.
    Brandon Sanderson literally wrote stories about magic users who burns metal to do stuff.
    Is drinking some metal dust considered a price? It's literally just like drinking a magicka potion.

  3. #5583

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    From what I understand, if Zatanna uses her powers too much, Upside Down Man (great name by the way) is gonna take her over. Kind of like Chthon and Wanda, but as we've discussed earlier, DC is executing this idea better for some reason:

    https://www.cbr.com/justice-league-d...man-possessed/

    Yeah, Wanda's faced some tough consequences. That's why I've stated that they just reboot the Scarlet Witch. It's cheap and lazy, but I think it's time to turn over a new leaf. It's not like Marvel haven't used clones, Skrulls and Doombots before to explain away problematic storylines. And when the new Wanda gets questioned about the stuff that happened fifteen years ago, she can just say "What are you talking about? That was some other chick". And costs (or limitations, rules, weaknesses or whatever the fuck you wanna call them) does not have to mean suffering. Sometimes it does. Bad things can happen, but characters can learn and grow from them. Ged certainly did in a Wizard of Earthsea. Him using powerful spells put him into comas TWICE and other people died because of his reckless actions. Those "costs" were VERY important for his character development. And he did the best he could to fix the problems HE caused. I don't that's so bad. But then again, I love a Wizard of Earthsea. I think Wanda could benefit from a story like that.
    They are not. As another poster mentioned, fans are not happy with the handling of Zatanna. Just like fans aren't happy when Doctor Strange is depowered. It hasn't been well received. Cost storytelling is why Wanda is in her current state, which fans do not enjoy. Wanda never said what happened was some other chick. I have to wonder if you are posting that to get a rise, because that's not what happened.

    Costs most often mean suffering or loss. Wanda has had plenty of bad. She doesn't need anymore.

    Comas are a bad thing. They definitely are not positive and Wanda was already comatose in a terrible story called HoM.

    She did not benefit from that.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  4. #5584

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    Darkhold Alpha confirmed for September https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...nkId=121157630
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  5. #5585
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Darkhold Alpha confirmed for September https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...nkId=121157630
    Yes!!! almost a year late but here we have the darkhold book

  6. #5586
    Fantastic Member Covetous_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Darkhold Alpha confirmed for September https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...nkId=121157630
    It’s going to be the season of THE WITCH, not just any the SCARLET WITCH
    “There is no defense against the Scarlet Witch's HEX!

  7. #5587
    Tyrant Sun User leokearon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Yes!!! almost a year late but here we have the darkhold book
    Now we just have to hope it will be good.
    Check out my Deviantart Page: http://leokearon.deviantart.com/

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  8. #5588
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    The characters above Wanda in her variant cover are different from Doom's.



    They look like a vampire Dr. Strange, monster Deadpool, Rachel Grey, monster Magneto, someone I can't ID, and someone with horns. Wonder if they have any significance?
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  9. #5589
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    Brandon Sanderson literally wrote stories about magic users who burns metal to do stuff.
    Is drinking some metal dust considered a price? It's literally just like drinking a magicka potion.
    Yeah, I consider it a price.

  10. #5590
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    They are not. As another poster mentioned, fans are not happy with the handling of Zatanna. Just like fans aren't happy when Doctor Strange is depowered. It hasn't been well received. Cost storytelling is why Wanda is in her current state, which fans do not enjoy. Wanda never said what happened was some other chick. I have to wonder if you are posting that to get a rise, because that's not what happened.

    Costs most often mean suffering or loss. Wanda has had plenty of bad. She doesn't need anymore.

    Comas are a bad thing. They definitely are not positive and Wanda was already comatose in a terrible story called HoM.

    She did not benefit from that.
    I'm not trying to get a rise out of anybody. I said Marvel could do a story where the current Wanda is an "imposter" and the "real" one of pre-1989 has been stuck in some other "dimension" or something. So when the "real" Wanda comes back and the mutants try to give her a hard time, she can just say "What are you yelling at me for? I have no idea what you're talking about!" Or something to that affect. It's not particularly creative, but she doesn't have to deal with the negative stories you are talking about. I dunno. I've read some reviews for Justice League Dark. They seem pretty positive to me. Aren't Bendis and Ram V sharing Justice League duties right now? I just go by what I read online. And like I said, from what I've read online, the "Dark" part of it is stronger.

    You might think I'm sounding like a dick by going on about "rules", but that's really not my intention at all. It's not about hamstringing writers. If folks here don't like too many "rules" to be imposed on magic in comic book stories, then I think the best way to prevent things from going off the rails is to make magic use have a price. Then rules are less important. And the costs don't have to be excruciating at all. I just gave an example of one that got my attention in a Wizard of Earthsea.

    Didn't the previews for the Darkhold book say that the heroes featured in that story go nuts because they read it? That's the "price" of trying to access the magic from it. And since the magic the Darkhold contains is "dark", they SHOULD be corrupted by it. Just like Denethor, Saruman and Boromir were corrupted by Rings and Palantírs in the LOTR. I still don't understand why I'm being criticized here!!!

  11. #5591
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leokearon View Post
    Now we just have to hope it will be good.
    We can only hope. I'm not big fan of orlndo, but I think he can do fine with magic

  12. #5592
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Darkhold Alpha confirmed for September https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...nkId=121157630
    finally!

    i wonder if she's going to face Dr Doom in this again


  13. #5593
    Incredible Member rhaenylis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Darkhold Alpha confirmed for September https://www.marvel.com/articles/comi...nkId=121157630
    I'm so happy for you guys ♡

  14. #5594

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I'm not trying to get a rise out of anybody. I said Marvel could do a story where the current Wanda is an "imposter" and the "real" one of pre-1989 has been stuck in some other "dimension" or something. So when the "real" Wanda comes back and the mutants try to give her a hard time, she can just say "What are you yelling at me for? I have no idea what you're talking about!" Or something to that affect. It's not particularly creative, but she doesn't have to deal with the negative stories you are talking about. I dunno. I've read some reviews for Justice League Dark. They seem pretty positive to me. Aren't Bendis and Ram V sharing Justice League duties right now? I just go by what I read online. And like I said, from what I've read online, the "Dark" part of it is stronger.

    You might think I'm sounding like a dick by going on about "rules", but that's really not my intention at all. It's not about hamstringing writers. If folks here don't like too many "rules" to be imposed on magic in comic book stories, then I think the best way to prevent things from going off the rails is to make magic use have a price. Then rules are less important. And the costs don't have to be excruciating at all. I just gave an example of one that got my attention in a Wizard of Earthsea.

    Didn't the previews for the Darkhold book say that the heroes featured in that story go nuts because they read it? That's the "price" of trying to access the magic from it. And since the magic the Darkhold contains is "dark", they SHOULD be corrupted by it. Just like Denethor, Saruman and Boromir were corrupted by Rings and Palantírs in the LOTR. I still don't understand why I'm being criticized here!!!
    Where ever you are reading does not have a pulse on fan reaction very well. Especially for the Bendis Superman stuff.

    Rules in magic and costs are different. Rules keep certain things from happening. Or certain things from being used. Costs are usually stories where someone does the thing anyway and pays for it. Like in your Rumplstilskin example. Also the coma example. Or Odin example.

    Then Wizard of Earthsea seems more up your ally I guess.

    Yes, it's possible to be corrupted from the Darkhold, but also broken from it. Wanda has been possessed fully from it which is a tired old story. She really should be able to read from it because she controls Chthon's powers. It doesn't make sense.

    You want Wanda to pay a price for using magic, which she already has in a terrible story you know people don't like, but don't understand why you are being criticized? ok ....
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  15. #5595

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhaenylis View Post
    I'm so happy for you guys ♡
    Thank you! I hope it's a great story!
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

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