"HEX Be a Lady!" Scarlet Witch/Wanda Maximoff Appreciation 2021

[CosmiComic]

Weren't they originally attacked in their home country because they were Romani?

[Albert1981]

I really don't like the books she writes, her magic on excalibur is ill defined. Zub still the best option

I personally like rules on magic to be clearly defined. If they aren't PLEASE let them be consistent. I enjoy stories with some "costs" on the magic. There was a book/movie called the NeverEnding Story which actually had my favorite "price" in all of fantasy literature. Every wish the main protagonist in the book/movie, Bastian, made would cost him one of his cherished memories. It was quite suspenseful at the end when he was about lose the last remaining memory of his deceased mother. I really wish comic book magic would be like that (even though I think it's impossible). I think a story like that would be great for Wanda. Maybe in an alternative universe, however.

[Albert1981]

Weren't they originally attacked in their home country because they were Romani?

I think so, but I'm not too sure. Marvel never really followed up on that too much. But I haven't read that many Avengers comics so I can't say for sure. But now that you mention it, I do remember that happening.

[GenericUsername]

My issue is that Marvel didn't do anything with it. Wanda and Pietro never talk about how the Holocaust affected their ancestors. It's never mentioned that they understand the Romani language. I know their adopted father was named Django, but most comic book readers don't know that he was named as a tribute to quite possibly the greatest guitarist that ever lived, Django Reinhardt (who happened to be Romani). Maybe these things were mentioned elsewhere in comics I didn't read, but Marvel made it seem like they were white for SO long. If they emphasized their Romani roots EARLIER and more OFTEN, maybe Disney woulda hired Romani twins in the movies. Magneto talked about his Jewish upbringing a lot, and Daredevil and Nightcrawler are hardcore Catholics. And readers are reminded of these facts a LOT. Look, I think it's safe to say that most Americans (as well as Canadians, New Zealanders and Australians) don't have an understanding of this issue. As you say, maybe the British are more informed because of their close proximity to mainland Europe where LOTS of Roma reside. Like in the Krauthammer article I posted, a lot of them think "Gypsies" are exotic folks, but don't understand calling them that is pretty hurtful in this day and age. Like calling people "Negroes" and "Redskins" was perfectly normal a few decades ago, but not anymore in the 2020s. I don't think Olsen is being "hateful". She's just ignorant. I do think she should be more aware and sensitive about this issue though. I'm no expert on the Roma, but I actually I have had close encounters with them during my trip to Paris. Most of them hung around famous tourist sites as you said. I CLEARLY remember some young boys swarming me with clipboards in front of the Pompidou Centre. And yes, I wanna say this again, they are NOT WHITE. If Journey had visited Paris like I did, he would ABSOLUTELY know this. So I don't blame him for not being aware. Besides movies and shows don't feature Roma like at all when they portray Paris. I was shocked to even discover there are a LOT of North and West Africans in Paris as well (bet you didn't know that)! I just felt sorry for them. Discrimination against the Roma is just not a burning issue in North America. In Europe it's a big deal. I bet you leokearon knows a thing or two about this. He lives in Europe!

They probably steer clear because they don't know enough to cover it. Willing to bet.

Olsen also isn't hateful and went to bat recently because she stopped them from using a stereotypical costume for Wanda in WandaVision. So I think she's learning and growing.

Most Romani do not hang around tourist sites nor beg, steal etc. That is a small part of the overall population. But still an indicator of poor treatment and how it leads to that life. Your small sampling is anecdotal for sure.

And like I said, I wouldn't want that to be the prevalent depiction especially not without the reasons why systemically Romani have ended up in that position in some countries. Because context is important. Because it brings about worse hate and violence towards Romani. And because it becomes part of the stereotypical depiction.

If any writer tackles their background, I'd like for it to be someone with a better understanding of Romani. Someone from one of the groups at least on consult. Romapop reached out to them years ago. Not sure what came of that.

[GenericUsername]

I think so, but I'm not too sure. Marvel never really followed up on that too much. But I haven't read that many Avengers comics so I can't say for sure. But now that you mention it, I do remember that happening.

Depends on the story. It can be at times because they were Romani, or because of their powers. One story distastefully had them attacked by their own people. Which didn't make sense.

[GenericUsername]

I personally like rules on magic to be clearly defined. If they aren't PLEASE let them be consistent. I enjoy stories with some "costs" on the magic. There was a book/movie called the NeverEnding Story which actually had my favorite "price" in all of fantasy literature. Every wish the main protagonist in the book/movie, Bastian, made would cost him one of his cherished memories. It was quite suspenseful at the end when he was about lose the last remaining memory of his deceased mother. I really wish comic book magic would be like that (even though I think it's impossible). I think a story like that would be great for Wanda. Maybe in an alternative universe, however.

Like I've said before, Wanda has already had the cost to using magic thing. That's what landed her where she's at now. She doesn't need a cost to magic. She needs writers to remember she is adept at using magic. And to stop having her possessed by it.

[Drops Of Venus]

Also Andy Park was called out on Twitter https://twitter.com/leiaorganq/statu...46536740376578

I wasn't trying to say that no one said anything about him, but you can clearly tell that there is a double standard on how they treat Olsen vs everyone else. People never called Taika Waititi a racist monster for allowing the g-slur to be used in Thor: Ragnarok by a white actor who had used that word before, while never acknowledging it or apologizing for it either. I don't see many people on Stan Twitter trying to hold him accountable for that at all. And it's just like... where is all that energy for them? If your activism is real and not performative, why are certain people getting a pass while you continue to **** tirelessly on someone for the same mistake? Hating on Olsen has unfortunately become a sort of trendy thing among some Twitter circles, so I feel like for some people it's become a lot less about trying to do the right thing and more about trying to fit in.

I just feel like it's hard for people to understand that it's ok for you to criticize ''problematic'' media and still enjoy it. You don't have to make an enemy out of it. We should always strive for it to get better, but it's not a crime if someone liked WandaVision. The truth that some of those stans don't want to admit is that if you like comic books, then you already like problematic media anyway. Their depiction of romani people is far from ideal. I see people shitting on MCU Wanda while sharing panels of the offensive 90s Scarlet Witch costume acting like that was supposed to be good romani representation. And what about people who love the idea of Magneto being Wanda's father, despite the fact that that was a retcon that essentially half-whitewashed her, erasing her full romani identity? That's not exactly unproblematic and it's not something that would be acceptable if it was done to other characters of color, but people enjoy it regardless, with little to no criticism towards it. If people are gonna act all high and mighty over not supporting problematic entertainment... then let's get rid of all of it and not just the things you find convenient to hate. But no one actually wants to do that now, do they?

I've always thought the complaints of white washing against the Maximoffs was stupid & I still do they look white in the comics, they been called white on panel, their drawn white, & were casted as white. It's been that way for years they never should have retconned them to be romani in the first place if they were never gonna do anything with it. I didn't even know that was a thing till I read this thread. And again even the comics our inconsistent like this is recent.

To be fair, this book was written by a white man who may not be fully aware of all the nuances of the romani people. I think he did a good job for the most part, but at the end of the day he's still writing about people who are not his own, and he can make mistakes as a result.

[GenericUsername]

I wasn't trying to say that no one said anything about him, but you can clearly tell that there is a double standard on how they treat Olsen vs everyone else. People never called Taika Waititi a racist monster for allowing the g-slur to be used in Thor: Ragnarok by a white actor who had used that word before, while never acknowledging it or apologizing for it either. I don't see many people on Stan Twitter trying to hold him accountable for that at all. And it's just like... where is all that energy for them? If your activism is real and not performative, why are certain people getting a pass while you continue to **** tirelessly on someone for the same mistake? Hating on Olsen has unfortunately become a sort of trendy thing among some Twitter circles, so I feel like for some people it's become a lot less about trying to do the right thing and more about trying to fit in.

I just feel like it's hard for people to understand that it's ok for you to criticize ''problematic'' media and still enjoy it. You don't have to make an enemy out of it. We should always strive for it to get better, but it's not a crime if someone liked WandaVision. The truth that some of those stans don't want to admit is that if you like comic books, then you already like problematic media anyway. Their depiction of romani people is far from ideal. I see people shitting on MCU Wanda while sharing panels of the offensive 90s Scarlet Witch costume acting like that was supposed to be good romani representation. And what about people who love the idea of Magneto being Wanda's father, despite the fact that that was a retcon that essentially half-whitewashed her, erasing her full romani identity? That's not exactly unproblematic and it's not something that would be acceptable if it was done to other characters of color, but people enjoy it regardless, with little to no criticism towards it. If people are gonna act all high and mighty over not supporting problematic entertainment... then let's get rid of all of it and not just the things you find convenient to hate. But no one actually wants to do that now, do they?



To be fair, this book was written by a white man who may not be fully aware of all the nuances of the romani people. I think he did a good job for the most part, but at the end of the day he's still writing about people who are not his own, and he can make mistakes as a result.

I'm not for the online harassment. I think too that people can talk about stuff that is inaccurate, problematic, etc. without insults, accusations and death threats.

As far as liking media that is problematic. I think everyone has a different barometer for what they tolerate. For a lot of Romani, they just don't like the depictions in a lot of media outside of what Romani themselves write. It's up to individuals to decide that. Some Romani do end up liking that at least there is some bare minimum of Romani characters that are heroes.

Some people in general do pick and choose their battles online. But this doesn't reflect how Romani groups online approach it. As someone of descent, I can't reign in bad allies. I just hope they get better with it once they know and understand more. And the ones just trying to create drama for nothing don't ruin any progression that can be had.

[Albert1981]

Yes, my experience in Paris was somewhat of a unique one. And most Roma in France are obviously not engaged in petty crime. I apologize if that was what folks implied from my statement. Look, if I was in their position, I would probably be doing it too. Go check out downtown San Francisco. Lots of panhandlers there. I don't think a one of them is Roma if I had to wager. All I'm saying is that in America, from what I understand, bigotry towards Romani peoples is not really a thing. I haven't heard of one single hate crime in all my years of living against Roma people in ALL of North America. AMERICAN writers created Wanda and Pietro Maximoff. So they probably don't know the history of persecution across the ocean. If EUROPEAN writers created the Maximoff twins, perhaps things would be different. In regards to Wanda suffering consequences for the use of her magic, yeah she has. What I'm saying is I would personally like perhaps an "alt-reality" story where she's less of a superhero and more of a "fantasy" character and hangs out in a "Princess Bride" world doing magical ****. There would be costs, but it wouldn't be traumatic like all that stuff with the twins. She could even bring Vision along as her hapless and bumbling British manservant.

[GenericUsername]

Yes, my experience in Paris was somewhat of a unique one. And most Roma in France are obviously not engaged in petty crime. I apologize if that was what folks implied from my statement. Look, if I was in there position, I would probably be doing it too. Go check out downtown San Francisco. Lots of panhandlers there. I don't think a one of them is Roma if I had to wager. All I'm saying is that in America, from what I understand, bigotry towards Romani peoples is not really a thing. I haven't heard of one hate crime in all my years of living against Roma people in ALL of North America. AMERICAN writers created Wanda and Pietro Maximoff. So they probably don't know the history of persecution across the ocean. If EUROPEAN writers created the Maximoff twins, perhaps things would be different. In regards to Wanda suffering consequences for the use of her magic, yeah she has. What I'm saying is I would personally like perhaps an "alt-reality" story where she's less of a superhero and more of a "fantasy" character and hangs out in a "Princess Bride" world doing magical ****. There would be costs, but it wouldn't be traumatic like all that stuff with the twins. She could even bring Vision along as her hapless manservant.

As long as Wanda lasts far longer than she does in most alt realities, haha. The hate crimes in America towards Romani are not really reported. But it's more like neighborhood harassment. Job discrimination, things like that. There were people trying to get Romani in my area evicted by lying about certain things. Some things reach the news occasionally. It barely does though. It's not it not happening. It's it not being reported.

[Albert1981]

Wow! I didn't know that (about the discrimination). That's terrible. Hopefully it doesn't get to European-style levels of xenophobia. Which is really weird, because when I went to Paris folks there seemed pretty chill. I couldn't live there like Fitzgerald and Hemingway though. Food's too damn rich for my blood. Sure the Palace of Versailles was amazing, but those kings and queens had no air conditioning/heating and running water. I rather live in THIS era. I dunno why Wanda gets whacked in so many alternative universes. They just don't have stories for her. For me, I'd like to see Wanda in more of a fantasy like setting. It would allow for some cool and funny battles. I think the most famous magical battle in film/television history is that Wizard's Duel in the Sword in the Stone. It was SO far ahead of its time. VERY creative. Even the New Rockstars talked about it. I think they made a joke that if Wanda and Strange went head to head they would turn each other into animals (a turtle) and monsters (Alex Jones). ROFL. Do cool **** like that. I'm just kinda bored with this mutant stuff going on again in the comics. And tired of characters dying and being immediately resurrected. It seems like we're going over the same terrain repeatedly. I dunno, you're basically the same age as me. We grew up watching stuff like Aladdin, the Last Unicorn, the Princess Bride and the NeverEnding Story. They were really entertaining, but sometimes could be pretty poignant. Besides WandaVision, a lot of the Phase 4 stuff to me is kinda soulless. I'm definitely in the minority in feeling that way though. I would like Wanda to be more like a fantasy character. It suits her perfectly.

Well, I'm going to bed, talk to you tomorrow!

[MaximoffTrash]

I wasn't trying to say that no one said anything about him, but you can clearly tell that there is a double standard on how they treat Olsen vs everyone else. People never called Taika Waititi a racist monster for allowing the g-slur to be used in Thor: Ragnarok by a white actor who had used that word before, while never acknowledging it or apologizing for it either. I don't see many people on Stan Twitter trying to hold him accountable for that at all. And it's just like... where is all that energy for them? If your activism is real and not performative, why are certain people getting a pass while you continue to **** tirelessly on someone for the same mistake? Hating on Olsen has unfortunately become a sort of trendy thing among some Twitter circles, so I feel like for some people it's become a lot less about trying to do the right thing and more about trying to fit in.

I just feel like it's hard for people to understand that it's ok for you to criticize ''problematic'' media and still enjoy it. You don't have to make an enemy out of it. We should always strive for it to get better, but it's not a crime if someone liked WandaVision. The truth that some of those stans don't want to admit is that if you like comic books, then you already like problematic media anyway. Their depiction of romani people is far from ideal. I see people shitting on MCU Wanda while sharing panels of the offensive 90s Scarlet Witch costume acting like that was supposed to be good romani representation. And what about people who love the idea of Magneto being Wanda's father, despite the fact that that was a retcon that essentially half-whitewashed her, erasing her full romani identity? That's not exactly unproblematic and it's not something that would be acceptable if it was done to other characters of color, but people enjoy it regardless, with little to no criticism towards it. If people are gonna act all high and mighty over not supporting problematic entertainment... then let's get rid of all of it and not just the things you find convenient to hate. But no one actually wants to do that now, do they?



To be fair, this book was written by a white man who may not be fully aware of all the nuances of the romani people. I think he did a good job for the most part, but at the end of the day he's still writing about people who are not his own, and he can make mistakes as a result.

I mean, it's kinda weird that the Robinson solo kinda emphasized Wanda being Romani(though somewhat stereotypical and stuff.)
It could be just the character in the story just see Wanda as a white person, it does happen with some Chinese folk(well, some of netizens surely just considers everyone with light skin and foreign look "white", this happen a lot with actors/celebrities with Middle Eastern descent on Chinese internet.)
Then again I doubt this is exactly Robinson's intention here.

[MaximoffTrash]

Yes, my experience in Paris was somewhat of a unique one. And most Roma in France are obviously not engaged in petty crime. I apologize if that was what folks implied from my statement. Look, if I was in their position, I would probably be doing it too. Go check out downtown San Francisco. Lots of panhandlers there. I don't think a one of them is Roma if I had to wager. All I'm saying is that in America, from what I understand, bigotry towards Romani peoples is not really a thing. I haven't heard of one single hate crime in all my years of living against Roma people in ALL of North America. AMERICAN writers created Wanda and Pietro Maximoff. So they probably don't know the history of persecution across the ocean. If EUROPEAN writers created the Maximoff twins, perhaps things would be different. In regards to Wanda suffering consequences for the use of her magic, yeah she has. What I'm saying is I would personally like perhaps an "alt-reality" story where she's less of a superhero and more of a "fantasy" character and hangs out in a "Princess Bride" world doing magical ****. There would be costs, but it wouldn't be traumatic like all that stuff with the twins. She could even bring Vision along as her hapless and bumbling British manservant.

That only works in MCU since Bettany is British.
Her standard comic British butler should be Modred lol.

[MaximoffTrash]

As long as Wanda lasts far longer than she does in most alt realities, haha. The hate crimes in America towards Romani are not really reported. But it's more like neighborhood harassment. Job discrimination, things like that. There were people trying to get Romani in my area evicted by lying about certain things. Some things reach the news occasionally. It barely does though. It's not it not happening. It's it not being reported.

Yeah, selective media coverage is a pretty common strategy(And censorship.) to snuff out certain voices.

[PwrdOn]

Yeah, I was surprised by the depth of poverty in such wealthy city like Paris. I was absolutely enthralled when I watched Midnight in Paris, and I mistakenly thought Paris could never be as poor as it was. My mother had her bag stolen from under her table in a restaurant when we visited Paris and it had photos of me and various French generals from Les Invalides! Very upsetting. I don't blame Roma for engaging in the begging business because France has a LOT of tourists. If I were a beggar, I would set up shop there too. But I agree with you, they are extremely marginalized in France even though you'd figure they wouldn't be because there's so many of them there.

Well you have to remember that, despite the general perception in America that Europe is wealthy and glamorous, most European countries are MUCH poorer than America as a rule. If France were a US state, it would rank second to last in GDP per capita, BARELY edging out Mississippi, and while Paris being the capital would be quite a bit richer than the country overall, it still won't come close to matching the concentrations of extreme wealth you'd find in some areas of the states. Hell, the term "Paris syndrome" was coined for tourists who go to the city expecting it be the magical city of lights they know from films, and come away feeling disappointed and depressed that their illusions were shattered by reality. And whatever issues there are with Roma and petty crimes are absolutely just a symptom of the broader issues with French society, and certainly not the cause.

Actually if they ever do a Wanda solo film they should definitely set it in Europe and have her go on a journey to reconnect to her roots, only to discover that the land of fairy tale villages and magical covens ceased to exist long ago, and that the continent is very much a modern society facing 21st century problems. You could even have a scene where she approaches some Roma women thinking that they might be able to help her find some fellow witches, only to be rudely rebuffed and called out for perpetuating stereotypes or whatever.