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  1. #5476
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    When characters lose their parents (or uncles) it seems like even in the superhero world, they're more likely to stay dead. MCU Wanda's parents ain't never coming back, and in the comics, no one ever seems to have considered bringing back Magneto's wife, before, during or after the period when she was Wanda's mother.

  2. #5477

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I think Schaeffer and her staff did the best they could. As I've said many MANY times before, it's hard to write magical stories. So I cut the writers some slack there.
    I don't think Schaeffer's team are terrible, but like I said, there are ways they could have made it better. It's just a flaw in the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    It's strange to me that Zatanna (who I consider to be Wanda's counterpart at DC Comics) is really flourishing now and Wanda is not. I just went to her thread over at the DC forum, and I have to say most of her fans there seem really happy with how she's being portrayed in Justice League Dark. Fans of her seem to really like how her stories are actually being taken seriously now. And that's almost entirely because she's paying steep prices for the use of her magic. To me, that makes her so much more interesting than Wanda and/or Strange (currently) unfortunately. It's funny that BOTH DC and Marvel started doing the whole magic has a price thing in the mid-2010s, but DC is executing this concept in such a compelling way while Marvel magic feels so meh. I read an old article about Aaron's work on Doctor Strange online recently, and its writer did complain that Strange is paying a price for using his magic, but his magical colleagues were not:

    https://comiconverse.com/doctor-stra...on-aaron-20943

    I guess that's why I was exasperated when Agatha and Simon "came back" after being killed. Death shouldn't be treated like a common cold, even in superhero fiction (in my view). Agatha and Simon coming back diminishes Wanda's character growth, while Zatara's death being permanent enhances Zatanna's in my opinion. I prefer stakes and consequences in the superhero stories I read.

    DC pushes their magic characters much more than Marvel does in general.

    I can buy Agatha coming back because of her history. Otherwise she would not be an original witch from the era of the Salem Witch trials. Simon also has been that since the beginning. Those are more tied to who they are. It's not really tied to Tony Stark, War machine, She-Hulk, Doctor Strange... and I could keep going on. It's not just that they kill people off. They do it too much and it's usually not tied to who the character is. It's just done for shock for sales.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  3. #5478
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I don't think Schaeffer's team are terrible, but like I said, there are ways they could have made it better. It's just a flaw in the show.




    DC pushes their magic characters much more than Marvel does in general.

    I can buy Agatha coming back because of her history. Otherwise she would not be an original witch from the era of the Salem Witch trials. Simon also has been that since the beginning. Those are more tied to who they are. It's not really tied to Tony Stark, War machine, She-Hulk, Doctor Strange... and I could keep going on. It's not just that they kill people off. They do it too much and it's usually not tied to who the character is. It's just done for shock for sales.
    Really? I always thought Marvel heroes like Scarlet Witch and Doctor Strange were much more prominent than DC ones like Zatanna.

    Unless you count myth-based heroes, in which case Wonder Woman, Shazam and Aquaman are prominent, as are Thor and Sub-Mariner.

  4. #5479
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    When characters lose their parents (or uncles) it seems like even in the superhero world, they're more likely to stay dead. MCU Wanda's parents ain't never coming back, and in the comics, no one ever seems to have considered bringing back Magneto's wife, before, during or after the period when she was Wanda's mother.
    That's very true. Relatives of superheroes need to be very fearful of death in the superhero world. And yeah, MCU Maximoff parents are gone for good.

  5. #5480
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I don't think Schaeffer's team are terrible, but like I said, there are ways they could have made it better. It's just a flaw in the show.




    DC pushes their magic characters much more than Marvel does in general.

    I can buy Agatha coming back because of her history. Otherwise she would not be an original witch from the era of the Salem Witch trials. Simon also has been that since the beginning. Those are more tied to who they are. It's not really tied to Tony Stark, War machine, She-Hulk, Doctor Strange... and I could keep going on. It's not just that they kill people off. They do it too much and it's usually not tied to who the character is. It's just done for shock for sales.
    I don't think they should have killed Agatha and Simon so callously. I liked them BOTH a lot more before they "died". I feel Scott hanging around with Jean now is weird. That chick must have died like thirty times from what I hear! I think Schaeffer and her writers did the best they could under the constraints they were working under. Marvel Studios is obsessed with build-ups to future projects and I just prefer the more self-contained stuff. But that's just my personal opinion.

    Like I mentioned earlier in the Zatanna thread, I've always felt that Marvel magic is really "science-y". I mean, if Marvel magic follows the laws of physics, isn't it just a "science humans don't understand yet"? I personally prefer that kind of magic, because it feels more realistic and grounded to me. But I can happily accept magic being more mysterious and mystical, just as long as it follows the rules imposed on it consistently. As you well know, I like magic with consequences and costs. But that's just me. Feel free to disagree with me (it hasn't prevented you from doing so before)!
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-07-2021 at 03:25 PM.

  6. #5481

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Really? I always thought Marvel heroes like Scarlet Witch and Doctor Strange were much more prominent than DC ones like Zatanna.

    Unless you count myth-based heroes, in which case Wonder Woman, Shazam and Aquaman are prominent, as are Thor and Sub-Mariner.
    They had a whole JL team dedicated to them called Justice League Dark. Besides them, they've really pushed Raven.

    Comics don't push Wanda at all. And Strange's title was cancelled, then now they are gonna kill him off.
    Last edited by GenericUsername; 06-07-2021 at 03:53 PM.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  7. #5482

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I don't think they should have killed Agatha and Simon so callously. I liked them BOTH a lot more before they "died". I feel Scott hanging around with Jean now is weird. That chick must have died like thirty times from what I hear! I think Schaeffer and her writers did the best they could under the constraints they were working under. Marvel Studios is obsessed with build-ups to future projects and I just prefer the more self-contained stuff. But that's just my personal opinion.

    Like I mentioned earlier in the Zatanna thread, I've always felt that Marvel magic is really "science-y". I mean, if Marvel magic follows the laws of physics, isn't it just a "science humans don't understand yet"? I personally prefer that kind of magic, because it feels more realistic and grounded to me. But I can happily accept magic being more mysterious and mystical, just as long as it follows the rules imposed on it consistently. As you well know, I like magic with consequences and costs. But that's just me. Feel free to disagree with me (it hasn't prevented you from doing so before)!
    Simon's intro story was that he died and became ionic energy. It's his powers origin. He doesn't ever really die, but turn back into pure ionic energy.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  8. #5483
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    Simon's the Kenny of the Marvel universe. The dude died in his very first story and has kept on dying and coming back since then -- he died at least twice in Remender's "Uncanny Avengers" alone. But even the death in "Force Works" that Wanda brought him back from wasn't really treated as a serious death; they talked about how he might still be out there in some form, since he's pure energy.

    Wanda bringing Simon back in "Avengers" was more about establishing the Scarlet Witch/Vision/Wonder Man triangle that the comics had teased a few times but never really done (because when Wanda and Simon had a thing in the early '90s, Vision didn't have his emotions), and also establishing the new "chaos magic" explanation of her powers, but nobody acted that surprised to see Simon back.

  9. #5484
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    They had a whole JL team dedicated to them called Justice League Dark. Besides them, they've really pushed Raven.

    Comics don't push Wanda at all. And Strange's title was cancelled, then now they are gonna kill him off.
    Ok. Maybe I'm thinking more historically because she was always more connected to the Avengers than Zatanna or Constantine were to the regular Avengers. But it's true she hasn't been pushed much in recent years

  10. #5485
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Simon's intro story was that he died and became ionic energy. It's his powers origin. He doesn't ever really die, but turn back into pure ionic energy.
    I think it's really REALLY unfair for Simon to be treated that way. No character should be known as that dude who makes it a habit to die and come back. It's hard to take characters like that seriously. But what I object to is the idea of reviving characters through the use of magic (with no long term negative consequences). With the whole magic having a price thing being established in BOTH the DC and Marvel universes, I don't expect this kind of thing to happen again (I hope).

  11. #5486

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I think it's really REALLY unfair for Simon to be treated that way. No character should be known as that dude who makes it a habit to die and come back. It's hard to take characters like that seriously. But what I object to is the idea of reviving characters through the use of magic (with no long term negative consequences). With the whole magic having a price thing being established in BOTH the DC and Marvel universes, I don't expect this kind of thing to happen again (I hope).
    Well he's not constantly dying and coming back. And he's not even technically dying. He's full energy. He can just take human form. His previous human form from before he was shot with tons of ionic energy which broke up his molecules leaving him in that state. It's his whole thing. It's not unfair to him, because it's not like he's ever had a time where he wasn't really that, and then years later they decided to do that to him. And it makes him powerful and that he can't really die. Just separate for a while. Come back later.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  12. #5487

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Ok. Maybe I'm thinking more historically because she was always more connected to the Avengers than Zatanna or Constantine were to the regular Avengers. But it's true she hasn't been pushed much in recent years
    Zatanna became part of the JL in the 60s. John Constantine joined in the 80s. Doctor Fate has been around since the 40s. Joined both the JSA and JLA. Wonder Woman and Shazam are both magic characters and have been around since the 40s. Raven started to be pushed big with Teen Titans in the 80s. The Phantom Stranger is from the 50s.

    All of these for the longest time were more well known than Wanda or Stephen.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  13. #5488
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Well he's not constantly dying and coming back. And he's not even technically dying. He's full energy. He can just take human form. His previous human form from before he was shot with tons of ionic energy which broke up his molecules leaving him in that state. It's his whole thing. It's not unfair to him, because it's not like he's ever had a time where he wasn't really that, and then years later they decided to do that to him. And it makes him powerful and that he can't really die. Just separate for a while. Come back later.
    Yeah, I understand he's not technically dying to his ionic form. But the perception is out there. Plenty of websites and online videos say that he's been brought back from the dead. And this makes it very hard for Marvel to write about him. There's no tension in storylines involving him if he's practically immortal. It sucks for fans of him. I liked him more before he "died" that first time.

    In regards to DC vs Marvel magic, I agree DC magic is better. It always has been. Maybe because more fans like their magical stories to involve some sort of "horror" elements in them. I never considered Strange, Loki and Wanda to be "horror" characters. Marvel magic is more about pulling energy from other dimensions (it sounds very scientific to me and I sort of like it that way). I think Marvel will be accused of ripping off DC ideas if they make Wanda worried about using her magic because Chthon will slowly take control of her for every spell she casts. They're doing that storyline with Zatanna and I think Marvel dropped the ball by not doing it first.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-07-2021 at 05:33 PM.

  14. #5489
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Zatanna became part of the JL in the 60s. John Constantine joined in the 80s. Doctor Fate has been around since the 40s. Joined both the JSA and JLA. Wonder Woman and Shazam are both magic characters and have been around since the 40s. Raven started to be pushed big with Teen Titans in the 80s. The Phantom Stranger is from the 50s.

    All of these for the longest time were more well known than Wanda or Stephen.
    Really? I thought SW and DS have appeared in a lot more comics than the DC magic users.

  15. #5490
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    Is it weird that I think Marvel should give “Wanda+Simon” another chance?
    “There is no defense against the Scarlet Witch's HEX!

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