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  1. #5536

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I don't think Wanda needs to suffer brutal costs for creating rings and dog leashes. That's not changing the balance and equilibrium of anything. But it makes it harder for writers to work with magic users like her if she can alter reality by saying a few words. What would be the point of having teams of superheroes then? There would be no tension, drama, and conflict in those stories at all. I think greater feats of magic require greater sacrifices on the parts of the magic users for stories to have weight and stakes.
    She never could alter reality by saying a few words. She has to be tapping into a power strong enough for her to be able to reality warp.
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  2. #5537
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    Quote Originally Posted by starduck View Post
    I think the aging thing was because her magic was corrupted wasn't it. I don't think she needs a big price on her powers, a lot of marvel characters run around with godlike powers or are smarter than super aliens and no one cares.
    The way I would make it work is that her chaos magic, if drawn in large quantities, makes her susceptible to influence from Chthon and Shuma Gorath. In small quantities it's no risk. If she has to use alot of power she has to be in a fully focused and strong-willed state of mind.

    It's like if Optimus Prime has to fight Megatron where there are humans, he has to wrestle with carefully using his power in such a way as not to cause harm, so even though he is powerful, he can find himself at a disadvantage due to concern for others, which itself could cause more harm. That's compelling and creates tons of tension; what if his caution causes more suffering? What if he goes on the attack and harms people in the process? Power and how to use it is what's interesting, not the using of that power.

    Being powerful also means the fear of losing control of that power, which would make a person cautious, even hesitant about going full ham. That's the in-built limit on a powerful character, a psychological hesitancy.

    In fact, far from limiting story potential, a powerful hero character creates compelling story opportunities, if the writer explores how they deal with that power, and how it it can be a burden that creates complicated dilemmas.

  3. #5538
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    And also in Mystic Arcana Wanda is in the "Set chapter" instead of "Chthon chapter"(which uses Nico Minoru as the cover character.)
    I just re-read Wanda's issue and I can see the similarities between that and WandaVision. To quote Chthon through his mouthpieces, "Know this. The young witch is special to Chthon. She will be loyal to no coven. I leave you with this prophecy." I wonder if the WandaVision writers drew any inspiration from this Mystic Arcana issue.
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  4. #5539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relugus View Post
    The way I would make it work is that her chaos magic, if drawn in large quantities, makes her susceptible to influence from Chthon and Shuma Gorath. In small quantities it's no risk. If she has to use alot of power she has to be in a fully focused and strong-willed state of mind.

    It's like if Optimus Prime has to fight Megatron where there are humans, he has to wrestle with carefully using his power in such a way as not to cause harm, so even though he is powerful, he can find himself at a disadvantage due to concern for others, which itself could cause more harm. That's compelling and creates tons of tension; what if his caution causes more suffering? What if he goes on the attack and harms people in the process? Power and how to use it is what's interesting, not the using of that power.

    Being powerful also means the fear of losing control of that power, which would make a person cautious, even hesitant about going full ham. That's the in-built limit on a powerful character, a psychological hesitancy.

    In fact, far from limiting story potential, a powerful hero character creates compelling story opportunities, if the writer explores how they deal with that power, and how it it can be a burden that creates complicated dilemmas.
    That's a more interesting and complex idea than just "too powerful, nerf them!"

  5. #5540
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relugus View Post
    The way I would make it work is that her chaos magic, if drawn in large quantities, makes her susceptible to influence from Chthon and Shuma Gorath. In small quantities it's no risk. If she has to use alot of power she has to be in a fully focused and strong-willed state of mind.

    It's like if Optimus Prime has to fight Megatron where there are humans, he has to wrestle with carefully using his power in such a way as not to cause harm, so even though he is powerful, he can find himself at a disadvantage due to concern for others, which itself could cause more harm. That's compelling and creates tons of tension; what if his caution causes more suffering? What if he goes on the attack and harms people in the process? Power and how to use it is what's interesting, not the using of that power.

    Being powerful also means the fear of losing control of that power, which would make a person cautious, even hesitant about going full ham. That's the in-built limit on a powerful character, a psychological hesitancy.

    In fact, far from limiting story potential, a powerful hero character creates compelling story opportunities, if the writer explores how they deal with that power, and how it it can be a burden that creates complicated dilemmas.
    Yeah, there are plenty of times the Decepticons have used humans to hinder the Autobots ability to fight.

    For powerful hero means compelling stories look at Superman and the Flash (when written well) two heroes who by all rights finish defeating their enemies in about two seconds but still have great stories
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  6. #5541
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    Scarlet Witch - WandaVision
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  7. #5542
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Wanda's powers have always been vaguely defined and change definition with every single writer. I don't think it matters. Power limits are arbitrary and plot-driven, and it's the writer's job to give every character in a team book a chance to use their powers in a creative/useful way, and make up a convincing reason why they can't use their powers to fix everything ("Oh, no, I tried to do X but it didn't work because Y" is the basic formula).

    Wanda wasn't a mainstay of the Avengers for decades because she was so powerful (sometimes she was, sometimes she wasn't) but because of things like romance, friendship, struggling to control her powers and learn more about them, etc. Her show understood that; people weren't all that interested in the fact that she could do X new thing that she couldn't before, but her reaction to discovering that she was more powerful than she ever thought.

    I don't think any character is ever so powerful that they're unusable, because powers are arbitrary and inconsistent and characters are always less powerful in team books than in solo books. But Wanda's powers have always been arbitrary and inconsistent, so what's keeping her out of comics is not that her power is ill-defined. No one ever knew how her powers worked and she was fine until 2004.
    I've been reading through these Wanda-related threads for a while. There has been a great deal of distaste here for how Wanda used her powers fifteen years ago. The complete lack of build-up or allusions to her ability to reality warp on a massive scale in the mid-2000s has been a common complaint. But I don't think it should have been unexpected. Because as you say, since the Scarlet Witch's powers are so ill-defined and inconsistent, this ALLOWED Marvel writers and editors to get away with stories like that. I believe that it was established that Wanda could ALWAYS do the reality warping thing on such a massive scale "subconsciously", right? That's why I like HARD magic systems. There's not that much vagueness and ambiguity about what characters can and ESPECIALLY can't do in them. SOFT magic systems can work better if magic isn't used all that often (if it is, oftentimes you get shit happening because plots SAY SO). That certainly happened fifteen years ago.

    I think the CONSEQUENCES of those mid-2000s stories have definitely had a role in why Wanda can't go back to what she once was. It's hard to make her a hero again because of what went down. If magic had costs in Marvel Comics fifteen years ago, I don't think Wanda would be in the current predicament she's in. Look, I know you and GenericUsername have heartily disliked Jason Aaron's work with the Avengers, but I actually really appreciate him trying to streamline Marvel Comics mysticism by making magic use have a price. It's a good rule. It's not a new, unique or original one (in science fiction and fantasy), but in superhero comics it seems that it is? Maybe folks in this thread don't like Robinson's idea of Wanda aging because of her using her magic, but I definitely appreciate him trying to sort of putting certain limits on her powers. I dunno, it just seems to me that Marvel fans who like Strange and Wanda don't really buy into the idea of magic having costs. Not in the way DC fans of Zatanna do. Speaking for myself, I have no problem at all with it.

  8. #5543
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    She never could alter reality by saying a few words. She has to be tapping into a power strong enough for her to be able to reality warp.
    I know you've said that before, but I'm talking about "perceptions". LOTS of people think Wanda and Strange can practically do whatever the fuck they want. I've seen this on NUMEROUS forums and video comments. Look, gurkle and you seem resigned to Wanda having no rules and internal consistency to her magic, but I'm not. Fantasy stories really don't do it for me when the magic in them doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-09-2021 at 10:11 AM.

  9. #5544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    That's a more interesting and complex idea than just "too powerful, nerf them!"
    Reasonable limitations does not equal nerfing in my opinion.

  10. #5545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Reasonable limitations does not equal nerfing in my opinion.
    It doesn't have to, but that's a popular response, instead of something more innovative

  11. #5546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I've been reading through these Wanda-related threads for a while. There has been a great deal of distaste here for how Wanda used her powers fifteen years ago. The complete lack of build-up or allusions to her ability to reality warp on a massive scale in the mid-2000s has been a common complaint. But I don't think it should have been unexpected. Because as you say, since the Scarlet Witch's powers are so ill-defined and inconsistent, this ALLOWED Marvel writers and editors to get away with stories like that. I believe that it was established that Wanda could ALWAYS do the reality warping thing on such a massive scale "subconsciously", right?
    It depends on the writer. Some stories have said she could always do it, others said that she tapped into some sort of power source called "The Life Force" and when she lost it, she lost the reality warping ability. Writers and editors all ignore each other and make up whatever suits the story.

    Pretty much any power can be written as suddenly omnipotent if the writer wants -- look at how Phoenix's powers went from "telekinetic" to "can change the molecules of anything."

    I wouldn't say I'm resistant to magic having rules, I just don't really care, personally, at least when it comes to a superhero comic, where everyone's power is a little silly. It would be like trying to define the exact scope and limits of the powers of Jeannie or Samantha from "Bewitched." I just can't take these powers seriously the way I might in a more serious fantasy story, and I read them more for the way the characters relate to their powers and the way they choose to use them.

    But anyway I don't think the reason Wanda doesn't get used is because her powers are too poorly defined. Writers know they can make her as powerful or as weak as a given story requires her to be. It's the character they don't want to use, not her powers.

  12. #5547
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    It depends on the writer. Some stories have said she could always do it, others said that she tapped into some sort of power source called "The Life Force" and when she lost it, she lost the reality warping ability. Writers and editors all ignore each other and make up whatever suits the story.

    Pretty much any power can be written as suddenly omnipotent if the writer wants -- look at how Phoenix's powers went from "telekinetic" to "can change the molecules of anything."

    I wouldn't say I'm resistant to magic having rules, I just don't really care, personally, at least when it comes to a superhero comic, where everyone's power is a little silly. It would be like trying to define the exact scope and limits of the powers of Jeannie or Samantha from "Bewitched." I just can't take these powers seriously the way I might in a more serious fantasy story, and I read them more for the way the characters relate to their powers and the way they choose to use them.

    But anyway I don't think the reason Wanda doesn't get used is because her powers are too poorly defined. Writers know they can make her as powerful or as weak as a given story requires her to be. It's the character they don't want to use, not her powers.
    It's funny that you mention "seriousness" in fantasy. One of my all-time favorite movies is Princess Bride. I don't think there were ANY rules for magic in that film. And I didn't mind it all. Inigo asking his deceased father to guide his sword, Miracle Max saying it would take a miracle for his pill to bring Westley back from the "mostly dead", and the repeating of "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." like a "spell" to make that eventuality actually happen. None of that made any sense, but I enjoyed every minute of it. Because it doesn't take itself seriously. Goldman and Reiner made that flick so hilarious and charming my suspension of disbelief was actually HEIGHTENED as the movie went on. But Marvel and DC try to make their stories more serious in my view. And this goes for the movies as well. So I demand a little bit more out of them. I don't think that's a big ask. Feige even said that in Civil War, Iron Man and Captain America got into a very serious "theological and physical" altercation. This was in response to Martin Scorsese's criticisms of the MCU. I imagine the comic book version of that story was much darker than what we got on screen. I think the lack of internal consistency damaged the last Harry Potter and Wonder Woman movies. I don't want that to happen to Strange and Wanda in the MoM.

    By the way, thanks for the reference to the "Life Force". I didn't know about that. To me, it seems that Quesada and Bendis treated magic like a science humans don't understand yet. I imagine Feige and company seem to have sort of followed that way of thinking? I'm not convinced that Disney is "all-in" when it comes to magic in the MCU.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-09-2021 at 11:35 AM.

  13. #5548
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    Marvel Action Avengers was supposed to be coming out this month, but now looks like it has been delayed until December.

  14. #5549

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I've been reading through these Wanda-related threads for a while. There has been a great deal of distaste here for how Wanda used her powers fifteen years ago. The complete lack of build-up or allusions to her ability to reality warp on a massive scale in the mid-2000s has been a common complaint. But I don't think it should have been unexpected. Because as you say, since the Scarlet Witch's powers are so ill-defined and inconsistent, this ALLOWED Marvel writers and editors to get away with stories like that. I believe that it was established that Wanda could ALWAYS do the reality warping thing on such a massive scale "subconsciously", right? That's why I like HARD magic systems. There's not that much vagueness and ambiguity about what characters can and ESPECIALLY can't do in them. SOFT magic systems can work better if magic isn't used all that often (if it is, oftentimes you get shit happening because plots SAY SO). That certainly happened fifteen years ago.

    I think the CONSEQUENCES of those mid-2000s stories have definitely had a role in why Wanda can't go back to what she once was. It's hard to make her a hero again because of what went down. If magic had costs in Marvel Comics fifteen years ago, I don't think Wanda would be in the current predicament she's in. Look, I know you and GenericUsername have heartily disliked Jason Aaron's work with the Avengers, but I actually really appreciate him trying to streamline Marvel Comics mysticism by making magic use have a price. It's a good rule. It's not a new, unique or original one (in science fiction and fantasy), but in superhero comics it seems that it is? Maybe folks in this thread don't like Robinson's idea of Wanda aging because of her using her magic, but I definitely appreciate him trying to sort of putting certain limits on her powers. I dunno, it just seems to me that Marvel fans who like Strange and Wanda don't really buy into the idea of magic having costs. Not in the way DC fans of Zatanna do. Speaking for myself, I have no problem at all with it.
    It was unexpected because that wasn't how her powers worked, so that's why they changed how it happened in Children's Crusade. The story consisted of a lot of retcons and lack of continuity to make that story likely.

    It's no more difficult to make Wanda a hero than it has been for many other characters. Vision when he was possessed by ISAAC, Tony possessed by Kang, Jean by the PF, anyone else by the PF, Steve in the times he's been possessed by the Red Skull or turned into a Nazi.

    They've also turned outright villains into heroes.

    They've also made Wanda back into a hero since her return. She's just not in a lot of books lately.

    So it can be done if they want to do it. They just don't want stories about Wanda produced for some weird reason.
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  15. #5550

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    I know you've said that before, but I'm talking about "perceptions". LOTS of people think Wanda and Strange can practically do whatever the fuck they want. I've seen this on NUMEROUS forums and video comments. Look, gurkle and you seem resigned to Wanda having no rules and internal consistency to her magic, but I'm not. Fantasy stories really don't do it for me when the magic in them doesn't make sense.
    A lot of those people have those misconceptions because they don't read the comics. So of course they'd believe that. But comics should not be written based on misconception from people that don't really know anything about comics.
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