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  1. #5551

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Look, I know you and GenericUsername have heartily disliked Jason Aaron's work with the Avengers, but I actually really appreciate him trying to streamline Marvel Comics mysticism by making magic use have a price. It's a good rule.
    I have not ever said I heartily dislike his run. I just find his run boring. And magic having a price just would bring about more tragedy for Wanda. Which she has in spades. Limitations are fine, costs are not.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  2. #5552
    Astonishing Member Witchfan's Avatar
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    Elizabeth Olsen now says that she is married to Robbie Arnett.

  3. #5553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    It's funny that you mention "seriousness" in fantasy. One of my all-time favorite movies is Princess Bride. I don't think there were ANY rules for magic in that film. And I didn't mind it all. Inigo asking his deceased father to guide his sword, Miracle Max saying it would take a miracle for his pill to bring Westley back from the "mostly dead", and the repeating of "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." like a "spell" to make that eventuality actually happen. None of that made any sense, but I enjoyed every minute of it. Because it doesn't take itself seriously. Goldman and Reiner made that flick so hilarious and charming my suspension of disbelief was actually HEIGHTENED as the movie went on. But Marvel and DC try to make their stories more serious in my view.

    Which is fine. But I think "Princess Bride" is a good comparison for how I see Marvel and DC superhero comics. The story is deliberately silly and so are the characters, but we still care about them and feel bad when Westley "dies" and cheer when Inigo avenges his father. A story doesn't have to have internally-consistent rules to make us care, and I think the powers in superhero comics are just part of the character, they're not supposed to make sense.

    Modern superhero comics are a lot like "The Princess Bride" because they're an adult's version of children's stories. Writers of the X-Men or Batman have to balance the fact that these are children's characters with the fact that their audience is largely not children.

    It's a personal thing; some people care whether Thor could beat the Hulk, and I really don't, but it's fun to watch them fight.

  4. #5554

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    I know this wasn't the best thing that happened to Wanda, but this art looks cool.


  5. #5555
    Incredible Member teapartyofthedead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    A lot of those people have those misconceptions because they don't read the comics. So of course they'd believe that. But comics should not be written based on misconception from people that don't really know anything about comics.
    It doesn’t help when some of those same people are the writers themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I know this wasn't the best thing that happened to Wanda, but this art looks cool.

    The sole consolation prize of almost everything related to this story is the art.

  6. #5556

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    Quote Originally Posted by teapartyofthedead View Post
    It doesn’t help when some of those same people are the writers themselves.
    Marvel definitely has a hard time remembering their own canon, or caring. But that's why some stories are bad. More should not be bad for people that won't read the stories anyway.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  7. #5557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force de Phenix View Post
    I know this wasn't the best thing that happened to Wanda, but this art looks cool.

    Shit wrapped in gold is still essentially shit I would argue.
    And I find Magnus family cosplaying as royalty hilarious and ironic.
    Yes, the oppressed WWII holocaust survivor, randoms kids from piss poor family, etc, doing monarchy and shit.(BTW, that's the wish of the daughter of said family, I won't assume Wanda is well-versed in political theories and stuff, but she can totally dreamed up a better utopia than making her family rule the world.)

  8. #5558
    Tyrant Sun User leokearon's Avatar
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    Just thinking about HOM makes me want to vomit.
    Check out my Deviantart Page: http://leokearon.deviantart.com/

    Author of "The Saga of the Déise"

  9. #5559
    Astonishing Member Witchfan's Avatar
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    E3h9mqFXIAMNrsf.jpg
    Wandavision family

  10. #5560
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gurkle View Post
    Which is fine. But I think "Princess Bride" is a good comparison for how I see Marvel and DC superhero comics. The story is deliberately silly and so are the characters, but we still care about them and feel bad when Westley "dies" and cheer when Inigo avenges his father. A story doesn't have to have internally-consistent rules to make us care, and I think the powers in superhero comics are just part of the character, they're not supposed to make sense.

    Modern superhero comics are a lot like "The Princess Bride" because they're an adult's version of children's stories. Writers of the X-Men or Batman have to balance the fact that these are children's characters with the fact that their audience is largely not children.

    It's a personal thing; some people care whether Thor could beat the Hulk, and I really don't, but it's fun to watch them fight.
    You make excellent points. Thank for you sharing them so articulately. I really enjoy reading your comments because they are so eloquent and logical. But you're not unique in that regard when it comes to posters on this thread. I'm actually proud to be the most childish poster here. I don't want to give the impression that I don't like the genre. I'm not gonna lie, for a long time it wasn't really my favorite (even though I enjoyed it). I like straight fiction and some of the hard-boiled stuff. And I have a great affection for science fiction too. I don't think fantasy films/shows even have to HAVE rules for them to work. I mean, despite its MASSIVE sentimentality (or since it takes place in Iowa, should I say corniness?), I do enjoy Field of Dreams. That story's "magic" did NOT make sense at ALL. Like it was incomprehensible. The field itself was definitely magical. I recall once Doc Graham left the field to take care of Ray's daughter, he became old again. Overstepping the boundary between field and surrounding farm meant the "magic" wore off. That was the main rule I remember from that film. Like you said, sometimes these stories aren't really about the magic. In Field of Dreams, it was about family, memories, regrets and of course dreams. I have to say that I still find Field of Dreams to be much more "magical" than Doctor Strange and WandaVision. To me, the science in those projects felt like "science humans don't understand yet." And one of my favorite portrayals of "time travel" is from an old Twilight Zone episode called the "Last Flight." "Decker travels forward in time, then goes back to the past so that the future can remain as it should be by sacrificing himself to save Mackaye. We might wonder, what would have happened if Decker hadn't gone back to 1917? Would Mackaye have failed to show up at the air base? And what about all the people he saved in the Blitz? There is a paradox here that ultimately defies logical analysis. Perhaps the point of the time travel is the moral significance it has for Decker, rather than actually changing the outcome of history." Endgame and now Loki makes a big deal about describing the logic and intricacies of time travel (and I appreciate Marvel Studios hiring physicists to get the science right)...But I thought the Last Flight told a story about time travel better than Marvel did without explaining things too much (even though I was VERY impressed with how Marvel did manage to make time travel different than previous stories about time travel and explain it in a way that made some sort of sense without getting too expository). I'm not trying to "knock" Disney and the MCU, I just wanted to let folks on this thread know that I'm not really a stickler for rules in fantasy stories all the time. I am for it when I think they're needed. Just wanna repeat I don't dislike fantasy. I grew up on the Neverending Story, the Witches, Hook and the Lord of the Rings just like practically everybody else born in 1981.

    And yeah, I like seeing Hulk and Thor fight too.
    Last edited by Albert1981; 06-10-2021 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #5561
    Astonishing Member Albert1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    I have not ever said I heartily dislike his run. I just find his run boring. And magic having a price just would bring about more tragedy for Wanda. Which she has in spades. Limitations are fine, costs are not.
    Well, whenever I'm bored with stuff, I usually dislike it. So I'm just projecting here. My point is, and I hope I'm not sounding like a dick here, that whenever I watch fantasy movies and shows in which magic doesn't have some sort of cost, the stories in them just oftentimes seem to have a really poor understanding of consequences, you know? The suspension of disbelief just completely withers away for me. Maybe because I haven't consumed superhero media for decades, I have a different view on this kind of thing than the folks on these threads. But I think you know where I'm coming from. I think how magic was used to bring "back" Steve Trevor absolutely ruined Wonder Woman 1984 to a significant degree. And I think how magic was used to bring back "Fietro" damaged, but didn't ruin WandaVision. I just felt the magic was very inconsistent in those two instances, and I think they needed to be more consistent in order for those stories to work better. Just my opinion though!

  12. #5562

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert1981 View Post
    Well, whenever I'm bored with stuff, I usually dislike it. So I'm just projecting here. My point is, and I hope I'm not sounding like a dick here, that whenever I watch fantasy movies and shows in which magic doesn't have some sort of cost, the stories in them just oftentimes seem to have a really poor understanding of consequences, you know? The suspension of disbelief just completely withers away for me. Maybe because I haven't consumed superhero media for decades, I have a different view on this kind of thing than the folks on these threads. But I think you know where I'm coming from. I think how magic was used to bring "back" Steve Trevor absolutely ruined Wonder Woman 1984 to a significant degree. And I think how magic was used to bring back "Fietro" damaged, but didn't ruin WandaVision. I just felt the magic was very inconsistent in those two instances, and I think they needed to be more consistent in order for those stories to work better. Just my opinion though!
    Well most magic stories don't have a cost, so that excludes a lot. I don't prefer cost, I prefer limits on heroes. They are very different. I'm not into seeing a hero get punished for having power, especially women. When there is so much in media that portrays that kind of idea that women cannot handle power. Magic by it's very nature is unpredictable and inconsistent. So it just may not be your thing.
    Last edited by GenericUsername; 06-10-2021 at 11:23 AM.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  13. #5563
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Well most magic stories don't have a cost, so that excludes a lot. I don't prefer cost, I prefer limits on heroes. They are very different. I'm not into seeing a hero get punished for having power, especially women. When there is so much in media that portrays that kind of idea that women cannot handle power. Magic by it's very nature is unpredictable and inconsistent. So it just may not be your thing.
    Same. I don't mind some sort of give or take 'cost' like there having to be an energy source (even if the energy source is another dimension), but the idea that people need to suffer trauma to use their power ('power comes from pain') is just misery porn, IMO.

    But I hugely prefer magic having limits. Or super-powers, for that matter. Back when Wanda's main power was hex blasts that were mostly 'bad luck bolts,' it was fairly easy to come up with powerful, but limited, effects. Now that she can wave her hands and throw a hundred mutants at someone, or make a truck appear in midair and smash down on you, or say three words and affect people all over the world (and yet inexplicably has never had the slightest desire to say 'No More Cancer' or 'No More Racism' or 'No More Hunger'), it's just kind of off-putting to me.

  14. #5564

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Same. I don't mind some sort of give or take 'cost' like there having to be an energy source (even if the energy source is another dimension), but the idea that people need to suffer trauma to use their power ('power comes from pain') is just misery porn, IMO.

    But I hugely prefer magic having limits. Or super-powers, for that matter. Back when Wanda's main power was hex blasts that were mostly 'bad luck bolts,' it was fairly easy to come up with powerful, but limited, effects. Now that she can wave her hands and throw a hundred mutants at someone, or make a truck appear in midair and smash down on you, or say three words and affect people all over the world (and yet inexplicably has never had the slightest desire to say 'No More Cancer' or 'No More Racism' or 'No More Hunger'), it's just kind of off-putting to me.
    Misery porn is a good way to put it.

    And Wanda's powers do have a limit. Writers and editors forget about it. Wanda can't just make anything happen because that's tied to what power she taps into. Or is supposed to do that. The twilight sword, Simon's ionic powers, the life force.... none of these were her own powers on their own. While she has a decent amount of power on her own, it was only used as a conduit during her most well known feats. While she ended up using another more intense power to achieve those heights.

    Writers and editors just need to remember Wanda's limits. But we are also in an era where Manga and Anime are really popular, and they aren't interested in controlling powers in the slightest. Not even close. And they are beyond widely popular. So maybe western comics are just trying to keep up.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  15. #5565
    Fantastic Member Covetous_One's Avatar
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    For me Wanda’s limits should be self imposed. It forces writers to come up with compelling stories when characters are overpowered(repeating what someone already said in the thread)
    “There is no defense against the Scarlet Witch's HEX!

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