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  1. #4891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    Entirely, yes. And though I like and would appreciate more female focus, I may be guilty of enabling the older mindset of male writers.

    but I always liked the stories where Sue, Wanda, Jean, and even Jan (a Marvel Team up upgraded her way back?) increased their powers. Not so much where they lose them.
    And then they get "too powerful" and go crazy, apparently

  2. #4892
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    The first major old school female upgrade was either Sue, Wanda or Jean.

    Jean circa Xmen 96 ? when Phoenix happens.
    Sue gets an early upgrade with force fields around # 20, but later # 159 it is stated a thing increased her abilities a bit and of course Byrne and others reinforced the notions.
    Wanda, sorta, with Agatha's teachings, but probably really with the Chton stuff and then Nexus confirmations.

    Sue got the least of de-grading/removing. Just her writers often forget how to employ her skills and power creatively.

    Jean, was clearly of the too powerful, make her crazy mode, and of course its a wash cycle repeat mostly. Jean is so dear to me, but I avoid most X Men things because I can't stand most of the other characters enough to want to read a comic they're in.

    And then there is Wanda.
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  3. #4893
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    Why don't you like the other X-Men?

  4. #4894
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    And then they get "too powerful" and go crazy, apparently
    And all of those stories were drawn by Byrne.

    Wanda possessed by Chthon.
    Wanda going deeper than scarlet.
    Jean becoming Black Queen then Dark Phoenix.
    Sue becoming Malice.
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  5. #4895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    And all of those stories were drawn by Byrne.

    Wanda possessed by Chthon.
    Wanda going deeper than scarlet.
    Jean becoming Black Queen then Dark Phoenix.
    Sue becoming Malice.
    Did he ever explain why?

  6. #4896
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post

    but I always liked the stories where Sue, Wanda, Jean, and even Jan (a Marvel Team up upgraded her way back?) increased their powers. Not so much where they lose them.
    Me too. And yes, it was in that MTU when Jan's powers were majorly upgraded. I hate when they lose or decrease in power.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  7. #4897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Did he ever explain why?
    From what I gathered, he was inspired to turn Sue into Malice from his experience drawing Wanda, and both drawing and co-writing (with Claremont) Jean as Dark Phoenix.
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  8. #4898
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why don't you like the other X-Men?
    That was broad of me. I like some of them. I like more classic stuff.

    Somewhere in the '90s there seemed to be this proliferation of mutants; falling all over the place, and it became harder to keep aware of them all, their back stories, etc.

    Along with this came so much repetition. I loved the early X-Factor and Skids, but wasn't she a bit like Sue in power respects. Etc. Those were actually liked by me and more of the '80s.
    The '90s just destroyed for me (head canon, etc.) the idea that mutants were an oppressed minority.

    Mutants, X-teams, side characters, etc were more numerous than the various powered people in all other books.

    or it really seemed that way to me. So on that idea, I began to care less about them, because at the core, it was mostly, always the oppression and persecution themes and storylines.

    During the '90s there were characters that were very interesting to me and I liked. M, Monet. Karma got more interesting in the '90s perhaps. Various others, but

    it was always with the cannon fodder of less interesting baggage kind of characters hanging around.
    so somewhere in the '90s or maybe it was later, I cut back. I read occasionally something I may have heard about or was drawn to, but I had collected nearly every book; xforce, factor, men, etc. etc. for years and just stopped mostly.

    I lost interest, is the short story.
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  9. #4899
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    The first major old school female upgrade was either Sue, Wanda or Jean.

    Jean circa Xmen 96 ? when Phoenix happens.
    Sue gets an early upgrade with force fields around # 20, but later # 159 it is stated a thing increased her abilities a bit and of course Byrne and others reinforced the notions.
    Wanda, sorta, with Agatha's teachings, but probably really with the Chton stuff and then Nexus confirmations.

    Sue got the least of de-grading/removing. Just her writers often forget how to employ her skills and power creatively.

    Jean, was clearly of the too powerful, make her crazy mode, and of course its a wash cycle repeat mostly. Jean is so dear to me, but I avoid most X Men things because I can't stand most of the other characters enough to want to read a comic they're in.

    And then there is Wanda.
    I would go with Jean first, then Sue followed by Wanda.

    Within a few issues, Jean's TK was growing stronger with each feat attempted. In the second issue, Jean moved 5-6 women all at once across the street and up onto the marquee of a movie house.

    Then Sue about issue 21/22, with Reed using a helmet gizmo to "test her invisibility power" that actually increased Sue's invisible energy so that she (instinctively at first) made a solid field of it.

    Followed by Wanda about issue 32 or so when her powers grew stronger after not only returning to her homeland in the Balkans, but she and Pietro received the Diathermic Treatment from the native physician.

    Jean turning into Phoenix happened in 1976, not 1996.

    All 3 lovely ladies did indeed grow in power and usage as well as complexity throughout the years.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  10. #4900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Did he ever explain why?
    Claremont did Dark Phoenix to show how power corrupts that even the most pure and kind of people (Jean) could fall. Byrne clearly wanted to replicate the praise Dark Phoenix got but on his own. Also Dark Scarlet Witch/Vision Quest was solely done to destroy Wanda's marriage.
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  11. #4901
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I would go with Jean first, then Sue followed by Wanda.

    Within a few issues, Jean's TK was growing stronger with each feat attempted. In the second issue, Jean moved 5-6 women all at once across the street and up onto the marquee of a movie house.

    Then Sue about issue 21/22, with Reed using a helmet gizmo to "test her invisibility power" that actually increased Sue's invisible energy so that she (instinctively at first) made a solid field of it.

    Followed by Wanda about issue 32 or so when her powers grew stronger after not only returning to her homeland in the Balkans, but she and Pietro received the Diathermic Treatment from the native physician.

    Jean turning into Phoenix happened in 1976, not 1996.

    All 3 lovely ladies did indeed grow in power and usage as well as complexity throughout the years.
    I am not very familiar with the earliest of stories about XMen, but I think retcons may say that Jean was always more powerful, but Prof X may have been releasing some blocks on her. Or you're right and I'm 2nd guesssing!

    Sorry, the accident or arc that began her becoming Phoenix began around issue # 96, or so. I think I have to remember "or so" or I'm misconstrued by my own words.


    I of course have all those X Men issues in the basement, bagged, not the greatest of shape perhaps, from their original publications when I was around 20. * or so *
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  12. #4902
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I am not very familiar with the earliest of stories about XMen, but I think retcons may say that Jean was always more powerful, but Prof X may have been releasing some blocks on her. Or you're right and I'm 2nd guesssing!

    Sorry, the accident or arc that began her becoming Phoenix began around issue # 96, or so. I think I have to remember "or so" or I'm misconstrued by my own words.


    I of course have all those X Men issues in the basement, bagged, not the greatest of shape perhaps, from their original publications when I was around 20. * or so *
    Hahah, interesting, that "or so".

    Jean was more powerful than she (and us) were led to believe. When the Professor blocked off Jean's TP at age 11, some think today that that chopped her TK power. Don't know though.... But the Professor did not reintroduce her TP until years later, when Jean was wearing her green miniskirt outfit that she designed.

    So the times I am mentioning above and here are all well before that, when most thought Jean could only move a chair or a book. She lifted and spun Beast in the air so fast he was a blur in issue 1 with no sign of strain. She was soon seen "boosting" herself over holes in the ground, hills, etc.

    Yes, issue 96 began the epic saga which led into the Phoenix Saga.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  13. #4903
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    That was broad of me. I like some of them. I like more classic stuff.

    Somewhere in the '90s there seemed to be this proliferation of mutants; falling all over the place, and it became harder to keep aware of them all, their back stories, etc.

    Along with this came so much repetition. I loved the early X-Factor and Skids, but wasn't she a bit like Sue in power respects. Etc. Those were actually liked by me and more of the '80s.
    The '90s just destroyed for me (head canon, etc.) the idea that mutants were an oppressed minority.

    Mutants, X-teams, side characters, etc were more numerous than the various powered people in all other books.

    or it really seemed that way to me. So on that idea, I began to care less about them, because at the core, it was mostly, always the oppression and persecution themes and storylines.

    During the '90s there were characters that were very interesting to me and I liked. M, Monet. Karma got more interesting in the '90s perhaps. Various others, but

    it was always with the cannon fodder of less interesting baggage kind of characters hanging around.
    so somewhere in the '90s or maybe it was later, I cut back. I read occasionally something I may have heard about or was drawn to, but I had collected nearly every book; xforce, factor, men, etc. etc. for years and just stopped mostly.

    I lost interest, is the short story.
    I see. I can't say I care about a lot of X-Men, like Iceman, Angel or Jubilee, but I like some of them, like Beast

    Quote Originally Posted by leokearon View Post
    Claremont did Dark Phoenix to show how power corrupts that even the most pure and kind of people (Jean) could fall. Byrne clearly wanted to replicate the praise Dark Phoenix got but on his own. Also Dark Scarlet Witch/Vision Quest was solely done to destroy Wanda's marriage.
    Oh yeah, because he didn't like the marriage.

  14. #4904

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    Quote Originally Posted by leokearon View Post
    Claremont did Dark Phoenix to show how power corrupts that even the most pure and kind of people (Jean) could fall. Byrne clearly wanted to replicate the praise Dark Phoenix got but on his own. Also Dark Scarlet Witch/Vision Quest was solely done to destroy Wanda's marriage.
    Claremont's original intention was to make Jean a cosmic hero on the level of Silver Surfer. It was Byrne that wanted her corrupted by her power because one very powerful X-Woman already existed with Storm.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  15. #4905
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I'm a boring, old, snob, who thinks those earliest years of the new X Men were the best and most of what followed, up until somewhere in the '90s

    Yes, those foil/super-expando-cooler-than-cool covers (multiple # 1s for certain X comics) did a lot to convince me they had mostly become Marvel's big thing and all forces were moving towards full exploitation.

    That is what it is/was to me, the X is gravy and they wanted to make the most of it.
    It's not that there are not good stories and things; over the years I've seen some great stuff, but it is not consistent enough and there still are too many superfluous characters for me.
    )and sometimes I feel that way about the FF or other comics too, so I'm trying to not pick on X comics(
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