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  1. #2011
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Here are 3 points I want to make:

    1) I do not know.....using Chaos (magicks) to get an ordered outcome (desired outcome) seems.....odd. Chaos is not ordered and no one can order it, which is why it is chaotic.

    2) Even in the earliest days, Wanda did get desired outcomes to her hexes in some issues. I will list a few instances here, which are covered in a number of books. These are off the top of my head (so are out of order) but provided so as to avoid an influx of "no she did nots!".

    These are ALL desired outcomes Wanda wanted:
    --Causing drapes to catch fire to reveal the true enemy
    --Shattering the glass cylinder holding herself prisoner
    --Shattering a huge undersea dome
    --Shattering Cap's steel restraints
    --Shattering the tiny capsule holding Wasp hostage without injuring Wasp
    --Snapping the bands holding Goliath hostage
    --Stopping the ultra-powerful energy bolt of Ixar that was targeted directly at her

    3) The wizard Kaluu was the first person noted in comics who specifically used Chaos Magic, which is way before Wanda. He is considered the most powerful living black magic human user by some. However, most texts today do not include the Chaos Magic part, now that it is widely associated with Wanda. But Chaos Magic was his Black Magic part and he even taught it to Dr Strange. He also has White Magic, spells and special items of power and even tap into life forces for energy.
    [Quote Originally Posted by Thor-El 10-15-2020 12:32 PM]


    "Jason Aaron should know there is already a winner of the Phoenix Force and his name is Phoenixx9."

  2. #2012
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Boss Logic

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  3. #2013
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Check out my (616) Scarlet Witch Respect Thread:


  4. #2014
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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  5. #2015

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    Is the third one Hela? It's hard for me to see. These are amazing, colorful gifs!
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  6. #2016
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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    Yes it's the goddess of death
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  7. #2017

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    Very nice!
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  8. #2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    2) Even in the earliest days, Wanda did get desired outcomes to her hexes in some issues. I will list a few instances here, which are covered in a number of books. These are off the top of my head (so are out of order) but provided so as to avoid an influx of "no she did nots!".

    These are ALL desired outcomes Wanda wanted:
    --Causing drapes to catch fire to reveal the true enemy
    --Shattering the glass cylinder holding herself prisoner
    --Shattering a huge undersea dome
    --Shattering Cap's steel restraints
    --Shattering the tiny capsule holding Wasp hostage without injuring Wasp
    --Snapping the bands holding Goliath hostage
    --Stopping the ultra-powerful energy bolt of Ixar that was targeted directly at her
    The Marvel Handbook stated point-blank that she had trained her use of hex bolts to the point where she could cast hex after hex for *a couple of hours* and choose the results.

    And her history tends to back this up as she doesn't generally *kill* people with her hexes, as it would be easy as pie for a 'random' hex to cause someone to get hit by a car or have a stroke or electrocuted by a falling power line or blown up when a bullet in their gun jams, cooks off and sets off the entire clip in their hand.

    The list of ways one can 'accidentally' die fill obituaries every day, and Wanda would have a ridiculous body count if she just made 'random bad things' happen to people every time she waggled her fingers.

  9. #2019
    ᱬ Master Of Chaos ᱬ Cruelrain's Avatar
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  10. #2020
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruelrain View Post


    Just missing the Glamor costume...and finishing with her proper Scarlet Witch look.

  11. #2021
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    Which is why I said "less extreme" since "Chaos" IMO could probably be considered some kind of baseline ingredient for spellcasting/magic weaving,
    For certain types of it, sure.

    But it doesn't need to be all-magic or no-magic, just as vegetables aren't all-food or non-food. There are multiple kinds of magic, multiple sources, and those various sources are good at different things.

    I am mainly emphasizing that other spells would be like using already made products vs making things from the most basic stuff.(Again, just my interpretation just to fit Chaos Magic into the larger magic system, which is again not really possible since it's one gigantic and often sel-contradicting system mostly thanks to writers not feeling like following each other's rule, which is fine I guess.)
    I would think that the other forms of magic may not all be one type of thing either. If you're concerned with energy, you may start with the power of Balthaak, and that power may be as basic to energy spells as Chthon's is to chaotic spells. If chaos magic underlay everything, then it'd be called primal magic, or something that implied that. But it's chaos magic because it's chaotic. It doesn't need to be applicable to all things -- there are probably types of spells you can't do with chaos magic, just as there are types of spells that it's ideal for.

    Magic shouldn't, to my mind, be another kind of science, or else it'd be science. It is at some level numinous, not really able to be boxed in and described like science is. Sometimes I've said that it's like using electricity and magnetism and wind power, but they only work well for you if they approve of you.

    That's why spells talk about how cool the primal figures are, to make them like whoever's casting the spell enough to loan their power.

    We don't have to placate gravity to get it to work, but with magic, you're in a negotiation every time you draw on power. It's not cleanly replicable like science.

    Again if it's just meant as chaotic, it may explain the probability manipulation effect, but what about the more specific/detailed mass reality warping.
    Changing the current order of things involves disrupting the current order, which is chaotic at heart.

    (I mean Morgan Le Fay got her tailor-made Arthurian legend world right? Amazing story BTW.)
    Thanks. But Morgan was using Wanda's inherent ability to channel magic to funnel the power of the Twilight Sword to Morgan and let Morgan use her magic to do what she wanted with it. It wasn't drawing on Chthonic chaos magic (or at least not much, beyond invoking Wanda's power) and it wasn't under Wanda's control. It was mainly the Twilight Sword's power and Morgan's control, and Wanda was a piece of the process, not the whole thing.

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  12. #2022
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leokearon View Post
    With With full mastery she would affect specific parts of Ultron or completely make something improbable happen, like he turns into a chicken.
    I think that would be rather more than "improbable," really.

    To use Mr. Busiek's own analogy, she starts with a Chaos Grenade being thrown at random and hoping for the best; then she throws a choas grenade but now she's aiming at the target, finally she is using chaos bullets like a sniper
    A little more than that.

    A hex is like a chaos grenade, but the more she can concentrate and shape the magic, the more she can do specific things with it, like finding a way through Ultron's shields to get at his molecular rearranger and making it go haywire. A simple hex wouldn't get through the shields because it's not subtly.

    Or calling an asteroid down from space is chaotic, but so is causing it to go off course and smacking into the moon. The control to do that is something Agatha taught her, to have it strike a specific spot as chosen by Wanda. It's at heart a chaotic act, but it's shaped chaos. And the more controlled the chaos is, the more effort it takes, because chaos wants to disrupt but it doesn't want to be controlled. Which is why Wanda can do big things, but can't just do them whenever she wants.

    Grenades are easy, because there's very little control. Meteors are harder. "No more mutants" is harder still -- it's disruptive, but it's a lot more than a bullet.

    Changing the fertility magic of an entire town of witches from something to create good crops to something that fertilizes human ova with the spirit of a sentient android is disruptive, but not all that consciously controlled. When she did that, Wanda was both disrupting something but also letting that magic -- fertility magic, not chaos magic -- do something fertility magic actively wants to do, to do something fertile. So chaos redirected it and shaped it via Wanda's barely-subconscious desires, but she couldn't have used it to do something outside of its nature.

    Fertility is a force as basic (or close to as basic) as chaos. But they each have their own nature, and a magic user uses those natures to do what those natures can do.

    A spell of forgetting might be chaotic in nature (or it could come from order, but it would feel different), but it's not fertile in nature.

    A spell to make trees grow and reach out with their limbs and grab someone is disruptive and chaotic but also about growth.

    You use the magic to fulfil its nature, but the more skilled a magician is the more they can shape that fulfilment.

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  13. #2023
    Incredible Member teapartyofthedead's Avatar
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    I’m loving the crash course on the nature and methodology of Wanda’s powers, and on the nature of magic in general in the Marvel universe. Thank you, Mr. Busiek. The notion that magic shouldn’t be another science is an interesting one. The idea of having to make offerings to gravity before I can jump up and down properly without friction going wonky, or the need to metaphysically attune to a car before I can use it safely to get to the store has never occurred to me. It almost sounds like Wanda is a 5e DND warlock! Which is funny, because I always think of her more as a wild magic sorcerer.

  14. #2024
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    2) Even in the earliest days, Wanda did get desired outcomes to her hexes in some issues. I will list a few instances here, which are covered in a number of books. These are off the top of my head (so are out of order) but provided so as to avoid an influx of "no she did nots!".

    These are ALL desired outcomes Wanda wanted:
    --Causing drapes to catch fire to reveal the true enemy
    --Shattering the glass cylinder holding herself prisoner
    --Shattering a huge undersea dome
    --Shattering Cap's steel restraints
    --Shattering the tiny capsule holding Wasp hostage without injuring Wasp
    --Snapping the bands holding Goliath hostage
    --Stopping the ultra-powerful energy bolt of Ixar that was targeted directly at her
    Those are all disruptive effects, which chaos is good at.

    As I may have had Agatha say in those early issues of George's and my AVENGERS run, Wanda started out not knowing what the hexes would do (she literally pointed and something bad happened, and she had to be careful not to point or it might happen without her intending it), and over time she began subconsciously shaping the effects.

    What Agatha taught her, through training in magic, was how to more consciously shape them. She just didn't spell out for Wanda at the time that she was using chaos to do it, she was just teaching her principles of control.

    kdb
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  15. #2025
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teapartyofthedead View Post
    It almost sounds like Wanda is a 5e DND warlock! Which is funny, because I always think of her more as a wild magic sorcerer.
    Thanks to Chthon, wild magic (or specifically, chaos magic) likes her.

    It's more willing to be shaped by her because of (a) her mutant powers and (b) how Chthon tapped her into it at birth.

    Agatha gave her the tools to have more control of the shaping.

    But chaos likes to flow through her, likes to be shaped by her. It's like other people have kitten for pets, and she has a tiger. A chaos-tiger.

    kdb
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